Gathering Storm

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Rhothaerill
I know Lego was a threat to you with their island, but the better thing (hindsight being 20/20) for both of you would have been to ally and hit Bob with a multi-pronged attack,

Guess what: we asked them, nearly begged to do just that. I was ambassador to Lego, and I couldn't convince them RP was a dry leave still clinging to its branch during a winter storm. After we wiped you off Stormia, they decided to drop troops on GoWND's side of the war. We could perhaps have handled 2 teams ourselves if only we had any energy left in us. But 3?

Again, failing propaganda / diplo there. During most of the game, we were perceived as weak when we weren't, and strong when we didn't want to appear strong. Oh well... perhaps this time will be different

DeepO

[Golden Bear]

Hmm. At Normal speed everybody can have a warrior or worker in the first dozen or so turns... turn 20? Of course, realtime-wise would take a couple of months to get to 20... People will be ready for a FW by then.

I would go a little higher... turn 35.

Rhoth. Rhoth. Not so hard.

[PJayTycy]

Do we (team alpha centauri) really need to go reading the end of previous demo games here to understand the diplomacy in this one?

[Beta]

Originally posted by PJayTycy
Do we (team alpha centauri) really need to go reading the end of previous demo games here to understand the diplomacy in this one?

Nope. Nothing to see here. Move along people. Move along.

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by DeepO
Personally, this goes straight against my own principles. You more or less choose whether you are good/evil, but you are born as an idiot or not. You can't be blamed for something you did not choose for, which means you're automatically forgiven.

... Yes, you respect people based on disneyland principles, it's a popular stance these days.
Since I don't consider people as being responsible for their emotions and (core) beliefs, I won't agree with you.

I mainly go on emotions.
I resent those who can't improve, especially if they're on my team.
I also resent those who are don't like me expressing the first resentment.
I dislike people who directly interefere with my plans
I dislike people who I can't hurt in some way
I am indifferent to people who dislike me
I am indifferent to whether a person is popular or not
I respect power and intelligence
I respect skill, especially machiavellian manipulation skill.
I respect people who agree with me
I strongly respect people that assist my plans
I strongly respect people that teach or train me

I notice we have different definition of 'Idiot'.
You think an Idiot is someone who lacks knowledge or experience
I think an Idiot is someone who cannot find more knowledge or experience.
Everyone is a newbie once, but it's the people who are newbies twice that I smirk at.

but you won't have time to troll anyway if you want to be active on the strategy discussions.

O RLY?

E_N, hold on a minute. If I read you right, you're telling us to refuse you into GS: as you haven't played a demogame yet, you are by definition the most newbie player of all.

"for some strange reason Friendly teams insist that even the n00bier, more stupid or more casual players get equal say"
It's okay to have people that aren't the best - so long as you don't treat them as being the best!

Who of the two is more important, the expert or the newbie? I say both are equally critical. You seem to say the newbie is useless, and a burden.

If the Newbie will Learn, then you are correct.
However, a Newbie who won't Learn is a burden.

This is one part of it: whether you agree or not, you don't give the slightest idea of objecting in public.

Not a problem, but I can't figure out why not! Wouldn't you want our team to seem human?

So, shutting up is the only logical conclusion you can make.

So long as my own diplomatic skill doesn't exceed that of your entire team. I don't expect this to happen, but if both nye and yourself are out due to RL issues, and nobody else steps up, then I'm prepared to take responsibility.

Honesty:
In public, there is no place for honesty, I'm afraid. [reasons]
If you are honest in the public forum, you are an idiot.

So now you're supporting the Manipulative line?
(Saying nothing is a powerful statement, too)

Humor:
[humor 4 teh lose] It's already hard enough to convey a dry, bland, meaningfull message in an forum post, let alone try to tell a joke which is appreciated by all the different cultures present.

Then tell the joke to the cultures that get it ... and the people who don't get it are heartless and cold, and should be escorted out of the demogame by Catapults / Cavalry / Tanks / ICBMs.

When it's toughtfull, in good taste, and as far from trolling as possible it can only add to the positive vibe.

So ... no Humor.
... Something tells me this "kind and open" status of the Demo Game is only stopping us from being open, and makes us sort of cold.
Next time I can, I'll set up a team that's shameless about all of its feelings and opinions.
Either this will lead to other people being open and thus more content, or show Apolyton to be a lot less mature than I once thought.

It's the arrogance of someone thinking he can talk those 'idiots' into whatever he desires which is perceived as so negative.

Yes, people are too proud to be thought of being predicable, and so they'll attack puppetmasters to avoid hurting their ego ... they're so backwards and predictable.
Since you've got the Arrogance anyway, can I use it? Please?

For me, the things I've learned the most about in GS is not about Civ as a strategy game, but had all to do with human interaction. That was my biggest personal challenge, and it will continue to be one. And it sure as hell will be yours too...

Learning how to use people is one of the most useful skills around.
You're damn right that I'll focus on it.

Already, on this forum, you're creating an image which shines onto GS as you're an official candidate here. You're currently doing things which might harm your future GS-membership, and the team. Now, you might not be aware of it, but you certainly seem willing to learn... so learn from my mistakes, and be extremely careful until you've got a good feeling of how exactly singular posts are influencing the team's image.

-1: You made an arrogant demand
You're wrong to think that I value team membership over expression. I will say what I think of you, your team, the demo game and pretty much anyone else.
After joining the team, I may shut up on the bases of the team winning and there being trolling available internally, but if the team does not want me due to my feelings expressed here,
then being quiet about them won't help anything, as the problem will arise later when I do express those emotions - and will probably be at an inopportune time.

Your team isn't so important that I'll lie in an attempt to join it.

Who knows, you might even become minister of diplomacy one day. But that job requires a large responsibility, and a good track record... and that track record isn't decided by a mod or a stupid rule, it's judged by all the people you are currently leaving first impressions on.

Yeah, but most of the people I'm currently leaving first impressions on are uninformed newbs without an interest in diplomacy, so they don't matter.

Good arguments will.

No they won't!

Well... this is the thing: in GS, there was no censorship, only self-censorship. I'm not going to smash you in the face, I'm asking if you've got the responsibility to smash yourself in the face.

If I say 'no', then that would be a lie.
If I say 'yes', then the team will expect me to smash myself in the face at different times and in different ways to how I will do so, and thus invalidate the responsibility.
My response is thus .

One thing, though, no tearing up I'm afraid. GS is concensus driven: after debate, nearly all the times everyone agreed on the big directives (perhaps not the details, but that's okay). And we don't lose time making up as we didn't start tearing each other up in the first place.

The lack of tearing up would contradict the expression of opinions that were detailed earlier. Clarification on whether disagreeing with the party internally is considered acceptable or not, DeepO?

[Beta]

Originally posted by Rhothaerill
It might be interesting if both GS and Sarantium get stuck on a small island together. Beta and E_N could really have fun in the public forum.

Please, no.

[Beta]

Originally posted by DeepO
Don't you think the Voxian and the Bobian war were handled very differently than the Lego war, and the Lego war was a much better one there? I know we acted from a feeling of respect towards Lego, and got the same in return. I certainly did not get the same expression from Vox.

Originally posted by Rhothaerill (with two H's)
I can't completely speak for Vox before I joined it (at the end of the war with GS), but after that I guarantee Vox did respect GS as a team. From some of the posts I read in the forum before that I believe that Vox respected GS before and during the war as well.

DeepO. I will apologize, many months after the fact, if that was the case. The truth of the matter is that our strategy, both the ill-planned attack, and the better executed public affairs campaign, were both a function of the respect we held for GS as a team. I know that others 'feared' your civ talents as well, and my diplomatic attempts were simply intended to give them a reason to support us. In fact, it may have back fired. The whole thing was quite the gamble against the odds (and was poorly executed in many respects), but we did a good sales job on our 'allies' (read - teams which would have been happy to see GS go under), that other than Lego, we got little support. In fact, GF and GoW were an integral part of the plan.

So again, I am sorry that the respect did not come across. To be honest, in the diplomatic wars, it was not intended to.

Originally posted bt DeepO
There was too much, this was too smal to completely remember what you are talking about. Mind you, I'm not making judgement here: I know we probably have made the biggest mistakes, we certainly were the suckers of round one where Beta absolutely floored us with his "Vox public statements". We hadn't learned our lesson yet when the Bobian war broke out. Which is why it was such a big mess. I certainly hope we have learned by now, and this means no public loose cannons, period.

Originally posted by Rhoethaerill (again, with two H's)
As to Beta's Vox statements, I believe those were made as much to add humor and fun to the game as anything. I've gotten to know Beta fairly well for all that we've never met in person and I don't believe he ever had any malicious intent toward GS. He's a competitor and I would think when he realized that they were unbalancing GS as at team then he kept using them against you that way too, but it wasn't with malicious intent.

Thanks Rhoth. To confirm, there was aboslutely no malicious intent towards GS whatsoever. Quite the opposite. And I was shooting for some roleplay and humour, which well may have missed the mark at times.

The only time I was really upset is immediately after the attack when it got personal, and and the claims about never allowing a member of Vox on future teams, etc, etc. That, IMHO, was going way too far and personalizing it, and probably a function of the frustration and emotion of the moment.

To reiterate what I have posted awhile back, the attack was seen as our only chance of accomplishing much in the game, given that we bungled completely our foray onto the continent. I always wonder how the game may have evolved, if we stuck to our guns, built a bridgehead on Bob, and gained GS and Lego support for the cause. Too bad Roleplay did not have a crystal ball to see into the future, or they may have broken ranks with the other two soon enough as well.

DeepO, to also clarify one point - none of the Vox Public Announcements were 'cleared' or vetted with another team before posting. Yes, they may have had an idea that something was coming, but not the details of our diplomatic approach.

But in hindsight, we all learned something from that game. (other than that shared victories suck) I learned a lot about the 'greyness' that lies between game diplomacy and personal relationships here on Poly, and the need to be careful in this grey area. I also learned to never underestimate your opponent.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by DeepO

I know you do. Beta didn't. In fact, he did just the opposite. And as you say yourself, you got involved in less than humorous flamefests too... one tiny misunderstanding is sometimes enough to launch them.

Look, I don't want to be holier than the pope here, but you are citing one single event. I can at least remember 5, and there might be 10 more I can't name which became too much for me. Honestly, who has had to put up with most garbage, you or us? I simply do not want to get into that same atmosphere again.

For you, it seems to have been OPD... someone I would consider the most gentle poster of GS at that time. He more or less left soon after, obviously you weren't the only one who was offended. And I know the more troll-like your posting style, the more chance you've got to being misunderstood, or being at the basis of flames. I know I make a lot more chance of creating such an aversion than OPD, which is why I want to be careful.

DeepO

OPD started it, all of GS backed him. At least all who spoke on the public forum. It was the latter that pissed me off, not OPD's comment. It was soon clear most/all of GS fealt the same way. A few folks decided to report a few of my stories during that little spat to the powers that be. Including the one above, if I'm not mistaken. I was warned that it would be best if I 'let everyone settle down for a while', and I pretty much stopped writing as a result, hence the gaping hole in my trappings series.

See, yes, I got involved in a less than fun flame war. However, it was because I believed GS as a whole mistreated a member of apolyton (not myself, mind you, not even my team) by condemning a creative work, one no different than GS had engaged in during the early Voxodus.

This is a sure fire way to really piss me off, and you can be sure I'll act similarly again if it happens.

And to you who get easily offended by such things, I suggest this simple guide:

If it is a creative work: Story, poem, "news", etc: it was most likely intended as fun. This is not 'garbage'. You don't have to 'get it' you don't even have to enjoy it. However, someone put the time to assemble it creatively, at least respect it.

Random post saying "you suck": Yeah, that's garbage.

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by Rhothaerill
Perhaps GS as a whole isn't interested in change from what they've known before, but I think it would be an intriguing melding of the style of GS with E_N's commentaries. You might both change a bit.

yes, it would be a change for the better, but I don't think GS is prepared to do so.

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Funny...

Team Mercenary plans to break every one of those by being open to a fault, honest whenever possible, and hopefully humorous.

Then I hope you're the first other Civ that we have the pleasure of destroying exploiting milking abusing encountering.

Originally posted by Rhothaerill
(On the turn the first flame war erupts)
Turn 20.

No, you idiot, anyone with half a brain could tell that insults will be flying LONG before that.

Originally posted by Beta
Please, no.

Surely this was a joke in which you simply forgot the smilie?
If so,
If not, :axemanrush:


---

In other news, can we please shut up about the past demo game, get the hell over it and pray to $DEITY that we can have a game that remains peaceful and friendly for at least the first 5 turns?

This may not be official GS Policy, but I'd like to think that we've all grown and hopefully are beyond petty squabbles that lead to wars before we even build the first axeman.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Beta
DeepO, to also clarify one point - none of the Vox Public Announcements were 'cleared' or vetted with another team before posting. Yes, they may have had an idea that something was coming, but not the details of our diplomatic approach.

I'm sure that should make all the members of GS happy. Knowing that all the other team leaderships were aware of the thread about to start and all lined up with the baseball bats to beat on your target, but they didn't get to edit the message. Thanks.

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx

OPD started it, all of GS backed him. At least all who spoke on the public forum. It was the latter that pissed me off, not OPD's comment. It was soon clear most/all of GS fealt the same way. A few folks decided to report a few of my stories during that little spat to the powers that be. Including the one above, if I'm not mistaken. I was warned that it would be best if I 'let everyone settle down for a while', and I pretty much stopped writing as a result, hence the gaping hole in my trappings series.

See, yes, I got involved in a less than fun flame war. However, it was because I believed GS as a whole mistreated a member of apolyton (not myself, mind you, not even my team) by condemning a creative work, one no different than GS had engaged in during the early Voxodus.

This is a sure fire way to really piss me off, and you can be sure I'll act similarly again if it happens.

And to you who get easily offended by such things, I suggest this simple guide:

If it is a creative work: Story, poem, "news", etc: it was most likely intended as fun. This is not 'garbage'. You don't have to 'get it' you don't even have to enjoy it. However, someone put the time to assemble it creatively, at least respect it.

Random post saying "you suck": Yeah, that's garbage.

Perhaps you could grant that a lot had happened that pissed off a lot of members of GS. Is that possible?

[Golden Bear]

Fascinating. Just fascinating. I enjoy your rants E_N, but you know that people who read your messages, read something different from your messages than what you think that you wrote.

Turn 20?

I play on Epic so I am a little shaky on Normal timelines.

For a axeman rush, assuming you have a civ with mining:

Beeline to BW is about 15 turns? Build worker out of the chute is about 12? ... and risking not having a warrior at home. Chop to build AM? Need about 5 to start attacking? 4 chop turns per AM, maybe 20 turns. You could consider a 1 city AM rush on about turn 40 (you have to have copper within the original city radius and mine it with road, oops, add time for wheel) - make that turn 52. In the meantime your opponents have multiple cities and will be fighting from defensive positions.

"It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury;
Signifying nothing."
[Wm. Shakespeare, Macbeth, act v, scene v]

[Enigma_Nova]

... Which is why I'm not going to go for Early Axerush.
Quechas, WarChars, Immortals or Keshiks at the earliest.

[binTravkin]

as you haven't played a demogame yet, you are by definition the most newbie player of all.

*beep* false!

[asleepathewheel]

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by binTravkin
*beep* false!

Com'on bT, Enigma was not a member of your team.