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COMBAT v. 3.1 (no host)

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  • COMBAT v. 3.1 (no host)

    This summary includes ALL the combat posts (except Victor Galis's), from Redleg's original summary to technophile's current one.

    COMBAT summary v. 3.0


    1. Combat Systems
    2. Land & Sea Combat
    3. Air Combat
    4. Communications
    5. Stacking
    6. Unit Modifiers
    7. Unit Orders
    8. Sub-Game for Combat
    9. Battle Screens
    10. Sieges
    11. City Conquest
    12. Miscellaneous


    1.1) First of all, there is the combat system in List 1 called CITV. Check out the 1st list to read about it, ‘cuz I’m not gonna describe it here.

    1.2) LASS (Land, Air, Sea, Space):

    The primary intention of this combat system was to address two aspects of the ATT/DEF system-one, why doesn’t the attacker’s DEF or the defender’s ATT affect the outcome of the battle? And two, how can a Legion destroy, let alone damage, a Bomber? The heart and soul of LASS is that each unit is given 4 stats (land, air, sea, space), and these stats detail both the attack AND the defense of the unit against enemy units from the domain in question. For instance, a unit with LASS of 1/2/3/4 being attacked from the air would use “2” as its defense, and if that same unit attacked the sea it would use “3” as its attack. Note, however, that having a stat in a particular domain does not necessarily mean that the unit can attack that domain.

    1.2.1) The Design Workshop: (For a complete listing of unit chassises, options, ideas, etc., see the UNITS thread).

    The unit design workshop would look as follows: L/A/S/S running down the left side, The unit picture in the middle, Hit Points, Firepower, Range, and Movement on the middle right side, All unit OPTIONS on the far right (a unit can have unlimited options). Clicking on the chassis picture allows the player to change a unit’s chassis without having to transfer to a separate chassis screen. This is to help slower computers and speed up customization (and to have less screens).

    1.2.2) Unit Chassises:
    Land: Infantry, Mounted, Motorized, Mechanized; Sea: Wooden Hull, Iron Hull, Steel Hull; Air: Plane, Airship, Helicopter, Missile; Space: Satellite, Spacecraft.

    1.2.3) Unit Options:
    Go to the UNITS thread in the Special Abilities sections, especially Land, for detailed descriptions of any unit options used below.

    1.2.4) Range:
    The attacker, who initially controls the terms of engagement, gains +10% to its strength in the appropriate domain.

    1.2.5) Two possibilities for how range can be used:

    1.2.5a) Absolute Value of (attacker’s range-defender’s range) = the bonus given to the unit with the greater range.

    1.2.5b) Absolute Value of (attacker’s range-defender’s range) = the number of free attacks given to the unit with the greater range. Theben prefers choice “a”, as “b” assumes that the unit with the lower range will always begin the engagement at maximum range even though this is not always the case.

    1.2.6) Stacking: (credit given to Diodorus Sicilus. Also see UNITS sect. 1.2 Commanding Units)

    1.2.6a)Command and Control: At the beginning there are 4 units max in a stack without strength penalties and by game’s end, with the advent of communications and organizational technology, there can be up to 30 units in a stack without strength penalties. After the max is exceeded each successive unit suffers a severe “to-hit” penalty.

    1.2.6b) Terrain: Some terrain makes it more difficult to keep control of an army. The following numbers are the modifiers used to determine the maximum number of unpenalized units in a stack in certain terrain types.
    Grassland, Plains, Tundra = 100%
    Desert = 75%
    Hills, Swamp, Jungle = 50%
    Mountains w/Pass = 25%
    Mountains, Glacier = 20%
    Roads increase terrain up one category to a maximum of 100%
    Forts, keeps, and castles have a maximum number of units allowed inside. City walls can contain an unlimited number of units.

    1.2.7) Combat Resolution:

    1.2.7a) Close Combat: Compares the 2 units’ domain STR’s vs. each other. Close combat can only be done by units operating in the same domain.

    1.2.7b) Ranged units may attack as artillery if they have a wall or friendly units screening them from the enemy. You may not fire into a melee in which your own troops have already been engaged w/o suffering morale penalties. When used as ranged units Artillery use their Range as their STR, and can only be countered by other artillery.

    1.2.7c) Units attacking another domain always attack as artillery but use their LASS factors for comparison.

    1.2.8) Misc. LASS:

    1.2.8a) Units from other squares can be included in a combat. Click on the other squares before launching into battle.

    1.2.8b) After tech advance Combined Arms, units can use their special abilities to cover weaknesses of 2 other units: FE, helicopters may give their bonus vs. tanks to 2 other units in a stack.

    1.2.8c) After combat, units of the same type that have been sufficiently damaged will combine to form one unit. FE, 2 units with 20 HP’s each have each taken 10 damage. After combat they will combine to form 1 20 HP unit.

    1.2.8d) If air or sea units are the only units remaining in a city when attacked by ground forces, they bombard for 1 round and then must evacuate. They have a % chance of escape-air units which escape are put in the nearest friendly city, while ships that escape are moved a few squares away. Some of these air or sea units may be captured. The rest are destroyed.

    1.2.8e) Older air units may not engage modern ones.

    1.3) CLAS-D (Close/Land/Air/Sea/Defense): A modification on LASS:

    1.3.1) Close is for non-ranged, within domain fighting. Example, two legions fighting.

    1.3.2) LAS (Land/Air/Sea) is for ranged combat against the domain in question. All air combat is considered ranged.

    1.3.3) Defense is the amount that the opponent’s combat rating is reduced. This will make certain modern units invulnerable to attack from ancient units (tank vs. phalanx).

    1.3.4) The Combat Algorithms:
    Each round a randomly generated number between 1 and 100 is chosen for each combatant. If it is equal to or less than their modified combat rating, the other unit takes combat damage equal to their FP. Close combat is always to the death. Ranged combat runs until the attacker loses a certain % of its pre-attack HP.

    1.3.5) Initiative: Attackers will usually get a bonus due to initiative, but terrain may reduce this bonus down to zero.
    Infantry gain +25%, +50% vs. cities and forts.
    Mobile units gain +50%.
    River, hill, forest, etc. take away -25%.
    Mountains, glaciers, etc. take away -50%.
    Fortification gives +50%.

    1.3.6) Stacking:
    The main attacker is the unit used to launch an attack, and the main defender is the one with the highest combat rating (or the one pre-designated as the main defender). If the main unit is an infantry type the auxiliary unit is a mobile type, and vice-versa if the main unit is mobile. For naval combat most ships qualify as both. The ranged unit on each side is the one with the best applicable LAS rating. The attacker initiates combat and uses 1 MP. The auxiliary unit adds x0.5 times its close rating to the main unit. Every 4th turn the damage taken goes to the auxiliary unit instead of the main unit. The ranged unit makes an attack every 3rd round. The auxiliary and ranged units use 1/3 of an MP.

    1.3.7) Bombardment:
    Just because a unit has the L/A/S rating doesn’t mean it can attack a domain. For example, cannon can only attack land, even though they have a high S rating-this is because if a ship attack a land square with a cannon, the cannon can fire back once the ship is in range. Bombards can damage terrain and city improvements, but with little accuracy (you don’t know what’s going to be damaged) until later tech allow for greater accuracy. Air attack is considered bombardment--an airplane never leaves a city, it just extends an "area of effect" around it. Bombardment lasts for a number of rounds proportional to the health of the attacker, since damaged artillery cause less damage than healthy artillery.

    1.3.8) Raids:
    Raids are similar to bombards, except they are conducted by mobile units using their C (close) rating.

    1.3.9) Defense:
    Dragoons, riflemen, ships of the line are the first units to receive any defense rating (1-2). Mech. inf., Cruisers, Carriers, Marines, Stealths have a medium amount (2-3) Tanks, Battleships, Subs, Advanced Stealths have the most (3-5). Defense results in an automatic reduction in %chance to hit on the part of the attacker.

    1.3.10) Air Combat:
    All air units have 1 MP, and can use this to launch an assault, assist in 2-3 ground/naval assaults within their range, redeploy (move to a new city), or intercept an incoming assault (this last only requires a fraction of a MP to remain, so conceivably a unit can assault and defend on the same turn). Air units never leave their base, they act as extremely long ranged artillery and have an area of effect roughly equal to half of their range (civ2 move points).

    1.3.11) Helicopters:
    These take x2 damage in air combat, can transport 1 infantry unit into battle, can act as a ranged unit, and can spot subs (%chance variable with tech and range from sub).

    1.3.12) Penalties to Air Attacks:
    -25% for hills, forests, etc. -50% for mountains, etc. Additional -25% if unit is infantry (bombers attacking infantry on a mountain would receive -75% to the amount of damage they could deal). Spies cannot be directly attacked by ranged combat.

    1.3.13) Misc.:
    Buildings have HP and are damaged by combat. Repairs cost money for both units and buildings. Units cannot be repaired in enemy territory. Population can be bombarded, each pop point has 10-20 HP.


    2.1) Bombardment:

    2.1.1) Cannon, artillery, howitzers, and the like can only bombard and cannot take cities. Cannon and artillery need to be stacked with a normal unit to prevent an immediate counter-attack by the defenders. Only the cruise missile unit (& maybe battleship) has more than 1 square of range (2-3).

    2.1.2) The number of rounds that a bombardment proceeds is proportional to the health of the bombard unit. This is because severely damaged units do not have the firepower necessary to mount a massive offensive. 2 possible results:

    * The attacker has attack rating % chance of doing fp damage to the target,
    * The defender has defense rating % chance of doing fp damage to the attacker.

    2.1.3) Bombardment should be able to destroy units, although as the enemy unit decreases in health the odds of it being destroyed should also decrease. Bombardment should cause less damage to infantry and fortified units than cavalry and moving units.
    2.1.3a) Disagreement: Bombardment should never be able to destroy units unless target is naval.

    2.1.4) All modern ships have the bombard ability and can actively defend to counter enemy ship movements. They can damage units that bombard them within their range. Can only damage subs if they attack 1st or ships have heliocopters.

    2.1.5) Bombardment units MUST have the ability to damage/destroy City Improvements. This goes for both intentional (striking target) and unintentional (accidentally bombing the hospital next to target). Bombing civilians should count as a minor atrocity (modern times -post WWII era -only?). High tech units can specific-target units/buildings/TI’s.

    2.1.6) Make certain ranged attack value is separate from the bombardment value. Being good at hitting other units in the thick of battle from a distance does not necessarily equate to being good at pounding stationary defenses from far away.

    2.2) Attacking from shipboard should be possible with any type of infantry, not just marines. Raiding from the sea was widespread through a long period of history.

    2.3) Army Population as Strength:
    2.3.1) There should be 7 city picture sizes, instead of 4. They should represent factors of ten. FE, a newly founded community might have 100 population.
    100 =Picture 1
    P1000 =Picture 2
    P10000 =Picture 3
    P100000 =Picture 4
    P1000000 =Picture 5
    P10000000 =Picture 6
    P100000000 + =Picture 7

    2.3.2) There should NOT be little numbers per group of citizens; each person is counted. The picture denotes its approximate size. Each turn, it will increase a small amount. Thus, there will be no sudden growth spurt as there is in current civ games.

    2.3.2) The player can use this for armies. FE, you can set the city to produce phalanxes. If the city has 100 people and your empire has a 5% Draft Rate, then you should get five phalanx-men a turn from it.

    2.3.3) All units still have their attack and defense and hit points and firepower values. FE, the phalanx would still be 1-2-1-1-1. But Hit Points and Firepower would be an assigned value multiplied by the number of men in the unit. For example, a 10000-man phalanx would be 1-2-1-10000-10000. So, while each "round" of combat it would probably be beaten by a single 8-3-2 Cavalry, it would still end out defeating the cavalry. If it were to defend against a 10000 man 1-1-1 unit, it would still probably win, because it has the higher value (comparing attack to defense) It would be equal to a 2-1-1-10000-10000 unit, and surpassed by a 2-1-1-15000-15000 unit. Therefore, the number of people would be just as important as the type of unit.

    2.4) Make combat end after a certain number of rounds:

    2.4.1) For ground combat the # of rounds is proportional to the HP of the attacker. Each round three things can happen: attacker can hit, defender can hit, or neither hit. Have 50% chance no hit scored, and the remaining 50% would be divided in the usual way.

    2.4.1a) Have the chance of no hit being scored vary by terrain and other RCE (random combat events), such as conducting battle on a rainy day (a RCE).

    2.5) Give war some real drawbacks. Some possible penalties:

    * Loss of trade routes with enemy/his allies
    *Gold income drops
    *City attacks cost a set amount of money
    *Military units cost money and production maintenance (& food?)
    *Happiness penalties and drops in military morale kick in after the war drags on for a certain number of turns
    *If your people like your enemy or you have ethnic populations of that country, revolts can happen, UN sanctions, etc.

    2.6) Units could have a loyalty factor. Unloyal units may rebel. Now large unhappy armies or armies with ambitious generals could threaten your civ.

    2.7) Auto-raising of militia for defense. Depends on size of city. Have an option to improve these troops by spending a certain amount each turn.

    2.7.1) If there was unhappiness, the militia could rise up and attack any soldiers in the town in an attempt to overthrow your rule and declare independence. So instead of soldiers making some unhappy citizens content these would stay unhappy, but only if the strength of the city population was more than the soldiers in the town would they rise up and attack them.

    2.8) Military levels of readiness.

    2.9) Make sure nuke, bio, and chem warfare are not too powerful. Increase the diplomatic penalties relative to the power of the weapons.

    2.10) Option of allowing the computer to do it all, with or without some basic commands from the player, so that the combat portion of the game can be as slow and complex or as fast as desired.

    2.11) A Colonization style combat report option should give the details of the combat.


    3.1) Attack:

    3.1.1) The movement of the air unit gives its attack range. When it attacks it bombards the target. Fighters and bombers can choose to bomb units or structures. One of these is then picked at random. Modern fighters/bombers can choose specific targets. The unit with the best AAA rating always defends.

    3.1.2) Modifiers to air attacks:
    city walls / fortress: no effect on air combat
    SAM: +100% defense
    Airport / airbase: +50% defense for defending aircraft
    hills, forest, river...: -25% attack
    mountains: -50% attack
    ships in port: +50% attack
    normal morale modifiers apply

    3.1.2a) Ground units in the rough terrain do not get a bonus or penalty attacking aircraft (if they can). The above only applies to air unit attacks.

    3.1.2b) Other modifiers:
    Ancient units: -100% defense.
    renaissance units, helicopters: -50% defense
    modern units, bombers: normal
    SAM, AEGIS, (stealth) fighter: +100% defense

    3.1.3) Recon plane: Very long range, does not attack and rarely draws active defense, acts as a vision range of 6 from a given point (airbase?) until the beginning of your next turn.

    3.1.3a) Disagreement: No need for a separate recon air unit. Recon flights can be abstracted with other air units.

    3.1.4) When air units attack terrain improvements they have a % chance of hitting based on the type of aircraft (higher tech plane =better % chance) and terrain improvement (basic roads are hard to destroy).

    3.1.5) Helicopters can be used to attack with a marine unit. The helicopter bombards, then the marine engages in combat.

    3.2) ACTIVE DEFENSE only can be used if the plane did not deploy or move in the preceeding turn. It functions as if the active defender had initiated the attack.

    3.2.1) Airplanes have a vision and active defense range of 0.5x their attack range.

    3.2.2) Fighters: When an enemy plane targets something in the defense range of friendly fighters and the target belongs to the player or an ally, they can intercept. If the attacker survives, it can bombard the target normally. A unit can only active defend once per turn, and only one unit can defend against each attacker. Stealth bombers have a % chance of the active defense failing to notice them. Fighters on carriers actively defend against naval units as well as air units.

    3.2.3) Bombers: Enemy naval and ground units can be targeted when they enter range. Can be set to only target certain unit types, such as carriers and transports or settlers.

    3.2.4) Heliocopters: are the only air unit that can attack submarines, target like bombers. They have a % chance of detecting submarines in vision range.

    3.2.5) SAM units actively defend in a 1 square radius. AEGIS cruisers have a range of 2 or 3.

    3.3) FORTIFIED air units only defend if they are in the target square. A carrier attacked by a sub will automatically scramble helicopters to “intercept”. They do not have to have movement left to defend against a direct attack, only against ones within its active defense range.

    3.4) DEPLOYMENT: Aircraft can only be moved by deployment. They can be deployed to owned and allied cities, air-bases and carriers. In the case of nuclear weapons and cruise missiles, to subs and cruisers also.

    3.5) Fighters have an effective range. In this area your forces have air superiority. If an opponent also has fighter coverage in this area the area is contested, and you only get the bonus if your aircraft are more numerous or superior. All units fighting within the radius on your side would gain a bonus depending on the type of aircraft as long as they weren't occupied with other missions like bombing enemy units or cities.

    Fighters +25%
    Fighters + Divebombers (or divebombers uncontested) +50%
    Jet Fighters +25% (always superior to fighters)
    Fighter-Bombers +50% (acts as fighters so need no escorts)
    Stealth Fighters +50% (always superior to jet fighters, can dodge intercept attempts)

    3.6) Events of bombing missions:

    3.6.1) The aircraft are spotted and an intercept is launched. Each intercepting fighter unit halves the chance of a successful attack.

    3.6.2) The aircraft are spotted, but not in time to intercept. Defenders scramble when the enemy is near or over the targets. Each intercepting fighter unit is -25% to a successful mission.

    3.6.3) There are no aircraft available to intercept, but the attack is forewarned and defenders are ready on the ground. Attack is rolled as normal.

    3.6.4) The aircraft are not spotted unit they have reached the target. Enemy fighters are caught on the ground, and AAA batteries are not at full readiness for the attack. The enemy bombers get a +50% surprise attack bonus.

    3.6.4a) If the attack is a sneak attack, involving a breaking of a treaty, etc. it is always from surprise.

    Other factors:

    3.6.5) Each fighter escort nullifies one intercepting or scrambling enemy fighter.

    3.6.6) Attacking targets in hostile terrain would boost their defense.

    3.6.7) AAA or SAM presence. A new improvement, perhaps called Radar Installation, could boost chances for an intercept in an area.

    3.7) The outcome of the mission should be one of the following:

    3.7.1) Success! If a primary target was selected it is destroyed or heavily damaged.

    3.7.2) Limited success. Primary target was damaged or a secondary target was hit instead.

    3.7.3) Misfire. Weapons missed the targets and hit a residental area. This could hurt your reputation if you are a democracy or republic.

    3.7.4) Failure. Enemy defenses proved too strong, and drove away or shot down your bombers/escorts. Some units maybe just be damaged.

    3.8) Missions for strike bombers can be given by stationing units next to a target or satellites over the target.

    3.8.1) Targets are limited, you only get the main defenders for the city, (mobile SAM unit, etc) and some primary structures - factories, airbase, naval yard, etc. This keeps the attack fairly simple - if you have the spy unit in place, you can then select the target from the menu for aircraft and artillery.

    3.9) Effect Zones:

    3.9.1) Air units (icons) are only allowed to exist in base squares (specifically built airbases or cities). They create an "effect zone" (EZ) around them, which includes all squares within the unit's operational radius. Players can move air units from base to base by selecting the unit, clicking on the new base and watching a nice little animation of planes taking off, flying and landing.

    3.9.2) If an enemy land/sea unit is inside friendly EZ, there is an automatic chance per turn that it will be spotted. This chance increases the closer the enemy unit is to the base square. The spotting would be re-evaluated every turn.

    3.9.2a) If radar technology has been developed, chances to spot enemy units (especially bombers) inside friendly EZ are increased substantially.

    3.9.3) Bombing Runs: Player selects a bomber air unit, clicks on the target enemy unit and again watches a neat animation of bombers doing an attack run and returning to base. If the bombers fly through an enemy fighter EZ, there is a check whether they are spotted by the enemy. If spotted, enemy fighter interception is very likely. There can be multiple interceptions if flying through multiple/overlapping enemy EZs. If the bombers take too much damage, the mission is aborted and they (try to) return to base.

    3.9.4) Automatic Fighter Escort: If a moving/attacking bomber unit is within friendly fighter EZ, it has fighter escort. Possible enemy interception then first engages the fighters, and if sufficient strength remains then the bombers.

    3.9.5) Automatic Air Superiority: If friendly and enemy fighter EZs overlap, there is a chance of air superiority combat between the fighter units (much like artillery duel in SMAC). The chance increases the more EZs overlap. Enemy bombers entering friendly fighter EZ are intercepted, if spotted.

    3.9.5a) Players can select an enemy base and then the fighter will only engage enemy fighters originating from this base. This would allow concentration of forces in air superiority missions.

    Other EZ ideas:

    3.9.6) No assignments: There is a danger that air combat will become a clickfest if player needs to constantly change fighter assignments by hand. The simplest solution would be to just allow the fighters do double or triple duty (as above). Because air superiority and interception doesn't occur automatically every time (the proposed opportunity checks), some fighters would only fly one mission per turn while others might do extra duty.

    3.9.7) With assignments: Fighters would have four modes of operation: Air Superiority, Interception, Escort and Rest.

    3.9.7a) Air Superiority: Fighters can attack ONE randomly selected enemy fighter unit that’s in any mode (or select a target mode?). This selection can be made by putting all candidates (those that have overlapping EZ ("effect zone") in random order and then making engagement checks one by one until the check is successful or no more candidates remain. The engagement check is based on how much EZs overlap: the more overlap, the greater chance. The chance maxs out when the enemy BASE square is within EZ. If the candidate enemy is also Air Superiority, the chance is increased (both trying to find enemy fighters); if Resting, the chance is decreased (avoiding combat). Air Superiority combat should be resolved before other air combat. If the fighter unit doesn't find a target it assumes Interception mode for that turn.

    3.9.7b) Interception: Fighters can intercept ONE spotted enemy bomber (or escorts first) entering its' EZ. If an airbase is under direct enemy bomber attack, there could be a chance (based on experience) that all fighters in that base can do double duty as interceptors.

    3.9.7c) Escort: Fighters can escort ONE bomber unit per turn. It can respond to several enemy interception attempts on the same bomber. If it takes too much damage, another (healthier) Escort fighter can take its' place, provided EZ restrictions apply.

    3.9.7d) Rest: Fighter doesn't participate in combat (unless forced by enemy Air Superiority fighters) and heals more quickly.

    3.9.7e) Any fighter in Interception or Escort modes can also be used like bombers. If they are used in fighter-bomber role however, they can't do double duty as fighters that turn (or vice versa). Fighter-bombers do not use fighter escorts.

    3.9.8) Carriers would be handled like airbases with the exception that they can move. If a carrier is sunk, all air units it was accommodating have a chance of evacuating to any available airbase, carrier, etc.

    3.9.9) Helicopters could be treated as bombers with short operational radius. Chopper units (icons) could also be allowed to exist outside city or airbase squares. They could establish temporary "airbases" for themselves WITHIN their movement radius from a city or normal airbase square. To repair damage, chopper units must return to a normal airbase or city (but they suffer damage only from combat, not automatically at end of turn like CIV II). Choppers act like bombers, but don't use fighter escort. Because choppers naturally try to avoid combat against fixed-wing aircraft, enemy fighters would have strongly reduced chances to intercept them. Also, they would have a chance to escape enemy fixed-wing bomber attacks (survive with no or minimal damage).

    3.9.9a) Marines w/Heliocopters: Any marine unit in an airbase (must start in square) can participate in one helicopter attack originating from the same airbase. Marine units can also move within helicopter EZ from any square to any unoccupied or friendly occupied square (helicopter transport). Perhaps some damage is suffered if moving to enemy ZOC.

    3.9.10) Conventional cruise missiles should be "anti-structure" weapons to be used against city installations. Damage to land and air units should be minimal. Perhaps air units could be more vulnerable to missile attack. Land or air units can't be destroyed by cruise missile attack, but sea units could.

    This sacrifices some player control, BUT reduces combat micromanagement with air units. IMO, it's also more realistic as all air combat is concluded within game turn.

    3.10) Divide between strategic bombers (bombers that damage/destroy city improvements or production) and tactical bombers (should act like SMAC artillery against land units, but could destroy sea units).


    4.1) Commands can only be issued to units within communication range. This would be city radius for primitive cultures, but would improve in range as tech increases (with unit option if using a design workshop).

    4.2) Communications are very important to military endevours. Represent this in CIV3 by automating units for when they go out of comm range.

    * Go to (set with cursor) and HOLD position
    * Go to (set with cursor) and ATTACK enemy
    * Go to (set with cursor) and return with REPORT

    4.3) Orders can be given to a messenger (another unit) to give to the target unit.

    4.4) The player may not know the exact status of his units but they will send reports of their condition (unsure if it is a good idea). This can be applied to cities far away from the capital before national governments are implemented.

    4.5) In ancient times (slow messengers), the player shouldn't be able to influence the formation once a battle has begun, unless the king is present in the army (under tactical combat).

    4.6) Opponents' ZOCs and/or oceans may cut off comm links.
    <font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Theben (edited December 24, 2000).]</font>
    I'm consitently stupid- Japher
    I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned

  • #2


    5.1) The Size of Stacks:
    Limits are needed to prevent the Uberstack- an overwhelming and undefeatable army. Proposed numbers range from 4 to 9. Others argue that the size limit in stacks should be increased as technology allows for better movement and supply of stacks (one suggestion allowed up to 30 in modern ages with Command & Control). Another suggestion, in UNITS, is that the level of commander present determines how many units can be combined in a stack, with better commanders becoming available with tech advances and costing more money for upkeep.

    5.2) Stacking Proposal 1:
    Stacking is just a way to lump units together in order to make warmongering easier to do. Units still attack and defend separately. Units in a stack may begin to retreat if their fellow stack units are being destroyed.

    5.3) Proposal 2:
    Stacking is a way to lump units together and allow them to augment each other’s abilities. Stacks receive a bonus for having certain combinations of units (air, mobile, artillery, defense, for example), and more than one unit will attack at a time. FE, 10 knights will not attack with 40 ATT, but instead the 1st several knights (up to command rating) will use full strength, then the next will use ½ strength (modified by command rating also?), the next will use ¼ strength, etc. Also, stacks from different squares can be combined in a battle (a battleship can be used to assist in a tank battle, for instance).

    5.4) Proposal 3:
    The military advisor would be directed to levy citizens - as a temporary or standing unit. Units would require a budget that the player could change for each unit (for better/quicker training or maintaining higher levels of readiness, I assume- Theben). The unit will be determined by the equipment the player chooses. FE, when raising an army the player can ask to raise a 10,000-man unit armed with muskets. Add the ability to combine arms; mix Muskets, some horses, and cannon, and you have a Napoleonic army. A (combat) bonus is given for having ranged, mobile and infantry units in the same square. Cookie-cutter units would be available for those that don’t want to customize their forces. A unit includes all the support equipment and non-com personnel necessary for it to function. This simplifies because stacks are not needed; the unit IS the stack.

    5.5) Firaxis should adapt the Gettysburg system, and allow you to "attach" one unit to another.

    5.6) There has been agreement & disagreement on this issue:
    * Stacked combat favors player over AI too much.
    * There is a plus in stacking for the AI. There are less "units" to move around as they are combined into stacks. Less decisions make for a smarter computer player.

    5.7) Units like artillery, catapults, etc. can be used to supplement armies, not to be armies themselves. All sorts of bonuses could be made up with this...FE, if you had 2 horsemen in a stack fighting a lone pikemen you'd get a "Flanking bonus" and the pikemen would lose the +50% verus horse; a siege engine would negate city walls.

    5.8) IMPORTANT: Firaxis should consider giving a bonus of some sort to the stack with the numbers advantage.

    5.9) Collateral Damage:

    5.9.1) All units in the stack receive collateral damage regardless of their participation in the combat.

    5.9.2) Units will receive collateral damage proportional to the amount that they contributed to the battle, i.e. if a unit used ¼ of its ATT to augment the combat, then that unit would receive less collateral damage than the unit using ½ of its ATT in battle.

    5.10) Allied units should be able to stack with each other. Who controls the stack is determined when the stack is formed. This could be like leasing units to a friendly civ (an idea in UNITS).


    Not everybody was calling for a brand new combat system; some were content with simply adding a few modifiers to the existing system in order to simulate more complexity, realism, and enjoyment. Some favored doing nothing to the combat system, and their wishes are noted here. “Do Nothing To Combat.” Here is a list of the additional combat modifiers some posters were calling for in Civ III. Unlike the completely revamped combat systems described above, these ideas were for the most part completely separate and individual, and so many of them are exclusionary to one another. Others work together and with the above systems. Be forewarned.

    6.1) Recon/Scouting:
    Ability of a unit to make out an enemy’s size/composition. Also modifies the site range of unit. Separate modifiers should be available to every domain (land, air, sea).

    6.2) Bombardment Range:

    6.2.1) For Strategic Combat: The number of squares distant that a unit can fire upon. The current restrictions to having units that can only bombard 1-2 squares away is far too limiting. Modern naval units can bombard several squares away, as can some modern artillery (depends on size of tiles-Theben).

    6.2.2) For Tactical Combat (see below): The number of squares down the battle board that the unit can fire. Range not only determines maximum range, but also effectiveness of firing at any range. FE, a unit with range 5 firing 1 square away is more accurate than a unit with range 1 firing 1 square away.

    6.3) Firing Range:
    Allows free attacks and/or an attack bonus to be given to the side with the greater Firing Range. For example, a Machine Gun Next (FR 6) fighting a Phalanx (FR 1) would receive either 5 free attacks or a +50% (arbitrary number) attack bonus. Another Possibility: Have 3 arbitrary settings-melee, short, long, with the settings determining position on the battlefield.

    6.4) Rate of Fire:
    Number of attacks per turn. Makes the free turns you accumulate from Firing Range really add up.

    6.5) Accuracy:
    The chance that an attack made will land. FP would determine the damage caused.

    6.6) Evade/Retreat:
    Chance a defender has of evading an attack. Also measures a unit’s ability to retreat (low Evade results in heavy losses when the unit retreats, as it has been routed and the units scatter every which way, and sometimes units fail to retreat altogether).

    6.7) Maneuverability:
    Might warrant its own stat, might be best left as part of movement. Determines how well the unit can maneuver around the battlefield. Gives a bonus to the side with greater maneuverability. Additional MP’s can be spent in order to increase Maneuverability for a battle-this would be to simulate moving into position before the battle actually took place. For example, if an infantry unit were attacking a cavalry unit, the cavalry unit would ordinarily have a greater Maneuverability due to its increased MP’s. However, the infantry could spend an additional MP (i.e. wait a turn and delay the attack) in order to move into a position of greater maneuverability and negate the maneuverability bonus of the Cavalry. A unit would only have so much Maneuverability to “spend”, which means that a unit which is repeatedly attacked will begin to suffer defense penalties (actually, the attackers will receive attack bonuses) because the defender is becoming outmaneuvered.

    6.8) Repairs:
    If Retreat is a combat option then there may be a problem if repairs remain free. Many suggest that once a unit reaches a critical level of health then it can no longer be repaired for free but requires inputs of shields and/or gold.

    6.9) ZOC:
    Military units cannot take advantage of spy/partisan immunity to ZOC’s. Concealed units give off no ZOC. Units with a critical level of health have no ZOC.


    Note-if Commanding Units and/or Famous Generals are used (see UNITS 1.1 and 1.2, also see below), then these commanders could be given special abilities in certain types of warfare, meaning that General Bob might give a bonus for a Blitzing army but not a Besieging army.

    7.1) Land Unit Orders:
    Some of the orders below speak of “supply loss” (see SUPPLY, MOVEMENT, ETC.). Some posters have suggested that units have a supply bar in addition to their health bar, with low supplies translating into reduced combat stats. The numbers used in some Unit Orders below are assuming that each unit has 100 supplies when full.

    7.1.1) Besiege:
    See below #10 “Sieges”.

    7.1.2) Concealment:
    Especially useful if every unit has a base Concealment value and if Camouflage is a special option in the Units workshop. Shift + C would order the unit to conceal (denoted by a small ‘c’ in the upper left hand corner of the unit box). Moving while concealed can only be done at ½ the normal rate (there are exceptions to this, like alpine troops in mountains) and reduces its chance to conceal by 25% or 50%. Otherwise units are concealed until successfully detected or the unit violates its concealment in some manner (using full move or attacking). Concealed units are difficult to detect, like subs, and gain:

    +50% to ATT when launching an attack out of concealment, or:
    +1 Firepower and ½ enemy defense when a successful sneak-attack is launched.

    The bonus only lasts for one combat round.

    7.1.2a) Some units have base concealment PENALTIES, so issuing a concealment order would effectively give them a 0% chance of concealing. Also, concealing multiple units in a square increases the chances that they will be detected (example: 1 unit, 50% chance of detection; 2 units, 90% chance of detection; 3 units, 98% chance of detection; etc.).

    7.1.3) Scouting:
    Especially useful if every unit has a base Scouting/Recon value and if Scouting is a special option in the Units workshop. This is automatic, but by pressing Shift + S the player could order the unit to Scout (denoted by a small ‘s’ in the upper right hand corner of the unit box). This reduces the unit’s movement by 50% (cumulative w/other movement penalties) but increases the unit’s scouting value. Better scouting increases the unit’s ability to detect ambushes and other concealed units, and also can increase the line of sight of a unit. The board game Flattop had “scouting levels” which could be adapted to Civ III. The better the scouting ability of a unit, the higher the level of scouting performed:
    Lvl. 1: Something is there, but you don’t know what or how many.
    Lvl. 2: You are given a number between ½ and 2x the actual number of enemy units in the square.
    Lvl. 3: You are given a more accurate reading on the number of units, and you have identified some of them.
    Lvl. 4: You have all information on stacks in that square. Additional info (cities, bases) may be uncovered.

    7.1.4) Fortify:
    Fortifying is what you do when you’re in for the long haul, and requires construction in order to be performed. ‘F’ issues the Fortify command, at which the following occurs:

    *The unit’s ATT and DEF are reduced by 50% for the next two turns,
    *After the two turns are up, the unit’s DEF is SIGNIFICANTLY increased.

    7.1.4a) The unit cannot attack while fortified. When the Fortify command is broken, the unit cannot attack until the following turn, but the unit loses its DEF bonuses the same turn that it breaks the command.

    7.1.4b) Fortified armies will never retreat, usually because they can’t. Fortified armies get additional bonuses when Engineering and Modern Warfare are discovered. A fortified unit gains +50% to Scouting but cannot conceal. Fortified units require 5 supplies per turn and 5 per attack.

    7.1.4c) Disagreement: Takes too long to fortify and recover from fortifying, as game turns are in years.

    7.1.5) Hold:
    This is like the present Fortify command-you issue this when you know you’re about to get attacked (or highly suspect it) and want your unit to get prepared for combat (putting up makeshift breastworks and such). ‘H’ issues the Hold order, which increases DEF but also gives a unit -50% to ATT. Holding units are less likely to break and be routed. A holding unit gains +25% to Scouting but cannot conceal. Holding units require 5 supplies per turn, 10 per battle.

    7.1.5a) Disagreement: Soldiers can be expected to ‘hold’ if needed and is included in the normal defense of the unit.

    7.1.6) Delay:
    Like an organized withdrawal, but slowing down the attacker at the same time. ‘D’ issues the Delay order that causes units to gain a bonus to DEF and a penalty to ATT (the bonus is not as large as Holding units), and also gain a +75% bonus to their chances to retreat. A delaying unit that retreats will still be delaying in the new tile that it occupies. For every 10% of its health that it loses, a delaying unit loses 5% from its ability to retreat. If a delaying unit fails to retreat, it’s DEF bonuses are cancelled and it is given -50% to DEF, which effectively kills the unit. Delaying units require 5 supplies per turn, 10 per battle, 30 per retreat.

    7.1.7) Ambush:
    An Ambushing unit is one that conceals itself in a tile and hits the enemy hard and fast, doing as much damage as possible before retreating (or finishing the job if it can). ‘A’ issues the Ambush order, which increases the unit’s Concealment by 75% and its Retreat by 50%. When an enemy unit enters the Ambush square, and if the ambush unit has not been detected, then the ambushing unit(s) gain a massive DEF bonus and are no longer concealed. Ambushing units cannot make use of Fortresses. If, however, the Ambush has been detected, then the Ambushing unit loses its Retreat bonus and is given a -50% penalty to DEF. Ambushers require 10 supplies per turn while waiting (the supplies must be moved in a concealed fashion).

    7.1.7a) Disagreement: There is no reason that the ambushing unit should suffer DEF penalties if detected.

    7.1.8) Raid:
    Raids are designed to reduce the ability of an enemy to supply itself, thus softening up an enemy for direct attack later. It damages the supply bars of enemy units more than the units’ health bars, and is also used to pillage occupied terrain. Shift + R issues the Raid order, which gives the attacker a small ATT bonus and reduces the DEF given to the defender from Terrain and Fortresses; the raider is also given +75% to Retreat and an extra move point for the turn. Only units with 2 or more movement points can Raid, and a Raid cannot be conducted two turns in a row. The turn after a raid, the Raiding unit is flagged for you and the enemy to see, and is given a -25% penalty to DEF. 10% of the damage caused by a raid is done to the defending unit(s), 40% is done to those unit(s) supplies, and the other 50% is done to the tile’s Terrain Improvements or the city’s City Improvements and population. If the Raider fails to retreat from battle then it gets -50% to ATT for the remainder of the turn and the rest of the damage it causes is done exclusively to the defender(s). This costs 10 supplies per move but increases your supplies proportional to the supply damage you cause for each attack.

    7.1.9) Blitz:
    Maybe your enemy is delaying you, or maybe you’re sick of the enemy retreating and repairing. That’s what Blitzing is for. Shift + B issues the Blitz order, which increases the ATT of the Blitzing unit, reduces the Retreat ability of the enemy, and allows you to instantly occupy the newly conquered square without using additional move points. Only units with 3 or more move points can Blitz. Blitzing units get a -25% DEF penalty for the turn after the Blitz, but unlike Raids a unit can Blitz as often as it wants. Additionally, ambushes do double to triple damage to a Blitz. This costs 15 supplies per move, 30 per attack.

    7.1.10) Devastate:
    This order blows the heck out of everything in sight. Shift + D will issue this order. If the Devastating unit is defending it gets a larger bonus than if it is attacking, since house-to-house fighting favors the defense. So, the Defender will receive +1% x (number of city improvements) + 1% x (population of city) + 15% to DEF in a city (this would make a city like New York pretty difficult to take), while in open terrain the defender will receive +4% x (number of terrain improvements in square) + 15% to DEF. An attacker who is Devastating will receive +10% to ATT (pretty lousy, huh?) but will also halve the defender’s Devastate bonus (if any). Devastation will rip a square to shreds, destroying CI’s, TI’s, and population. If both armies are using Devastation the damage will be more than doubled, which means that if two devastating armies fought in New York the city would be pretty much leveled when they were done with it.

    7.1.11) Push:
    For when you HAVE to get where you’re going. Shift + P orders an army to Push, which increases the unit’s MP’s by 50%, damages the unit slightly, and lowers the unit’s ATT and DEF. A Pushing unit must be issued the command at the beginning of its turn. Each move that a unit is Pushed will cost it 40 supplies, which will effectively drain almost any unit’s supply bar.

    7.1.12) Retreat:
    An Army is rarely destroyed completely in battle. At a certain point of loss of units combined with loss of tiles the army will start to retreat. If you have a General, he might get one chance to "rally" them. If an opponent starts to retreat off the battle screen (if used) the other side can attempt Pursuit (below). Pursuit will only be attempted by Mounted Units (or faster) that were in Reserve.

    7.1.12a) The player should be able to issue orders during combat for unit(s) to retreat. This can be done by slowing down combat (unnecessary with a battle screen). Sometimes unit(s) will retreat on their own, such as if they are Raiding or if they’re raw recruits and have been routed. Experience often determines whether they’ll be routed or not.

    7.1.13) Pursuit:
    Only mobile units in Reserve can pursue the retreating enemy (2 or more MP’s). Pursuit will cause a great deal of damage to the enemy-it has been pointed out that historically most casualties were dealt while an army was attempting to retreat. Stacking can make pursuit more difficult, as can delaying tactics, as the former brings artillery to bear against the pursuers and the latter lets the ground troops cover their own tracks for huge attack bonuses.

    7.2) Air Unit Orders:
    As stated above, most of these were given in order to allow bombers to attack and return on the same turn. Many of these are in addition to the Air Combat rules outlined above.
    7.2.1) Bombard:
    Air unit bombards a specific unit. May reduce city population if attacking a city. Cannot bombard a concealed unit. Biplanes have only this mission and support/intercept available (see LASS).

    7.2.2) Scorched Earth:
    Attacks buildings and population of city. May attempt to target specific city structures for greater risk of failure. In country, pillages terrain. Laser-targeting and perhaps other tech advances (like satellite mapping) will increase chance of success. Heavy Bomber does more damage than regular aircraft.

    7.2.3) Interdict:
    Heavy Bombers only. Any unit (friend or foe) in or attempting to pass through squares is attacked by the bomber and expends triple MP’s to enter and leave. One tile ONLY per bomber unit max! Interdiction causes less damage than bombardment.

    7.2.4) Air Support/Intercept:
    Air unit acts as artillery in combat as support for ground forces, during the attack or defense. Range of this action is ½ the Range of the aircraft. Fighters may be put on Intercept duty (like Sentry duty) and would attack any enemy aircraft that entered their range. Humans would be allowed to save their intercept until later. Fighters may also be sent to intercept in the same square where the bombers are supporting, which would help reduce enemy interception capability. Effectiveness of this order is determined by present level of Communications and Tactical tech advances.

    7.2.5) Carpet Bombing:
    Attacks ONE unit in a square with intent to destroy it. (note that if Heavy Bombers are used then either Bombing Runs or Bombardment will have to be modified). Unit attacked is semi-random (who gets attacked is based partly on which unit is easiest to spot), and effectiveness of attack is partly determined by how easy it is to spot the unit which is attacked. In order from hardest to spot + destroy to easiest: Spy/Scout/Diplomat, Settler/Engineer, Infantry, Caravan/Freight, Cavalry/Mounted unit, Mech./Armor unit.

    7.2.6) Strategic Bombing:
    Attacks a specific unit, a square with TI’s, or a city. Only available with certain tech advances, such as Targeting Radar or PhotoReconnaissance. Additional tech advances, such as Satellite Mapping and Laser-Targeting, make Strategic Bombing more likely to succeed.

    7.2.7) Air Transport:
    Air unit moves ground units around.

    7.2.8) Rest:
    As above.

    7.2.9) Redeploy:
    As above.

    7.3) Naval Orders:
    Not much talk on these, except that they get some of the same orders as Land Units, such as Besiege, Scout, and Conceal.

    See also City Conquest (below)

    8. SUB-GAME for COMBAT

    8.1) Strategic vs. Tactical:
    Should Civ III be Strategic combat only or include Tactical combat? The Unit Orders given above point toward a desire for Tactical combat . The other contention is that Civ III is Strategic in scope, and that tactical combat is not part of the genre nor is it necessary. But this section focuses on the concept of Tactics in Civ.

    8.2) Imagine moving around "armies/stacks" until one declares war, then having an intense mini-wargame to resolve the conflict. Historically most wars lasted for very short time spans. A sub-game of conflict that happens over a few turns would be more realistic and still just as much fun. This would allow for two kinds of warfare:

    Cold conflict with spies, diplomacy, trade wars, cultural struggles, etc.
    Hot wars with operational level battles occuring specific contested regions of the world.

    8.3) Optional Combat Phases (one long example):

    Turn 1(current turn advancement is 5 years):

    MAIN PHASE: Diplomacy, production, research

    Optional Military Phase 1: Calls up 5 armies from reserve status, deploys them in strategic mode (unable to use this phase).

    OMP 2: Sends 8 armies over the border to attack a neighbouring country, 3 of these armies besiege 3 cities and the other 5 screens those from attack. Combat resolution.

    OMP 3: Enemy reacts, you both move armies and fight.

    OMP 4: (wishing to save money/manpower/resources) you order victorious besieging armies to fortify in the cities, and the other armies to stay in place. However the enemy continues to attack you.

    Turn 2:
    MAIN PHASE: diplomacy/production/research

    OMP 1: redeployment of 2 armies to reinforce the combat front. Enemy attacking.

    OMP 2: No combat or deployment from any side. Military phase ends.

    Turn 3:
    MAIN PHASE: diplomacy/production/research, peace agreement
    OMP 1: withdrawal and demobilising of 4 armies. no further military activity.

    Turn 4:
    MAIN PHASE: ...
    no military activity.

    8.4) In Multi Player mode use a system with tactical options picked by each player. The tactics selected would be revealed simultaneously.

    8.5) There is always the option of including/removing tactical battles in the game.

    8.6) Make tactical improvements tech advances.

    8.7) Tactical concepts like Overrun, Breakthorugh, Exploitation, Envelopement, and Bridgehead (plus others mentioned in Unit Orders).

    8.8) Tactical combat ideas could be automated, and allow player to change if desired. AI can make suggestions if a major problem is ignored by player.

    8.9) Disagreement: “Since time is slower, building is less important, research is less important, growth is less important...I'd rather have long wars than being dropped into another detached game for war. Realistic? No.. but more enjoyable, more epic in nature, and in the end, more exciting.”

    8.10) Agreement: “It is possible, practical, realistic and, most importantly, just as much fun to minimize the strategic movement of military units in periods of non-warfare and maximize the military maneuevers in tactical during periods of warfare... The trick is to keep the tactical game simple and/or to move some of the complexity from the strategic game to the tactical game... MOO, MOM, HoMM, and many other popular games are examples of how different play balances between the tactical and strategic can be achieved in grand scope games.”
    <font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Theben (edited November 12, 1999).]</font>
    I'm consitently stupid- Japher
    I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned


    • #3
      once more...battle screen fixed.


      9.1) The Battle Board Option 1:

      9.1.1) The Battle Board is a tactical battlefield, 15 tiles by 15 tiles. The board is divided into 5 sections across and 3 rows down on each side. Across sections are: Right Flank, Right Center, Center, Left Center, and Left Flank, and rows (from nearest enemy to farthest) are Front, Support, and Reserve. There are 3 ranges for units: melee (non-ranged), Short, and Long. Short-ranged units (firearms, tanks, etc.) can range 2 rows up, while Long Range units can range 3 rows up. With suitable tech advances (Radio), aircraft and naval units can be assigned to attack any square at all. You assign your troops to their tiles (you can program in defaults or have saved positions for your troops for different battles). Ranged units without an attack factor (archers, catapults) go in Support.

      9.1.2) All units have Default orders:

      Horse Archers: Default Orders Evade (they attack as they retreat)
      Legion/Phalanx: Default Orders Attack
      Horse Artillery: Default Orders Evade
      Knights, Crusaders, Fanatics: Default Orders All Out Attack, which means that unless you’ve got a good General stacked with these units they’ll rush forward attacking until they’re off the board or destroyed, never defending or turning.
      Regular Infantry: Default Orders Defend.
      Mobile Units: Default Orders Attack.

      9.1.3) If you don’t want to micromanage, then use the Default Orders. If you want to micromanage, feel free to change anything. If a unit reaches the enemy’s side (except for All Out Attack units) the unit can turn and attack the flanks or rear for large attack bonuses.

      9.1.4) One can either use Computer Default OR deploy your troops. This deployment could either be you place every unit or from a Menu: Linear Defense, Defense with Counterattack, Attack Center, Attack Right, Attack Left, Holding Attack, Fighting Retreat, etc. - or you could Menu place and then modify it.

      9.1.5) If one has a Spy or Scout in the Army, or the army has an intrinsic “Scouting” factor, then the opponent has to deploy first.

      9.1.6) Ancient & medieval units do not have long range. Short range is in the support row & can attack only front lines or enemy support. Long Range Attack units (Artillery, Howitzers, etc) can be in the Reserve row and still attack everything back to the enemy Front or Support row (depending on their Range Ability), and in some cases further to the reserve row.

      9.1.7) If the opponent has not occupied a tile in front of them, mounted units can move up to two tiles (or more) forward and attack the of enemy units, which gives a combat bonus to the flankers. Infantry move slower while early artillery can't move on the battle screen at all.

      9.2) Option 2:

      9.2.1) This includes the ability to group units into larger entities and uses a formation editor to place the subunits of an army in desired positions:

      xxx = Militia, XXX = Legionnares, ooo = Light archers, !!! = Light Cavalry
         Marching               Default                            Attack
           !!!                                                  !!! XXX !!!  
           !!!                                                !!! XXX XXX !!!
           xxx            !!! !!! XXX !!! !!!                    xxx    xxx
           xxx            xxx XXX xxx XXX xxx                       xxx
           XXX                ooo ooo ooo                      ooo  ooo  ooo
           XXX                                                          Defence
           ooo                                                            xxx
           ooo                                                !!! !!! XXX XXX XXX !!! !!!
           ooo                                                    xxx ooo ooo ooo xxx
      Explanation of graph:

      9.2.2) Marching formation: Basically just a line of troops with a user-defined order of the component units. Designed for maximum speed (every unit gets to walk along a road for instance, instead of just traveling parallel to it). Being ambushed in this formation is not good.

      9.2.3) Default position: Starting position on a battlefield.

      9.2.4) Attack position: Describes the desired position of the units in an advance forward.

      9.2.5) Defence position: Ditto for the defending position.

      9.2.6) Also includes the ability to save and load formations (several pre-included with the game, for those who don't want to edit their armies).

      9.2.7) Thus, you could combine, FE, four units into one army, combine that army with two others and include some more light units as screening forces and so on.

      9.2.8) Combine this with some buttons to highlight obsolete units or other useful stuff. Reducing micromanagement (in moving many units at the same time) as well giving more options to customise your armies.

      9.2.9) If the battle is played out on the Battle Screen, each unit starts in its designated position and then moves into its attack or defense position depending on what strategic role the whole grouping plays.

      9.3) Different map tiles would be reflected in the terrain being fought over-a certain % would be wooded in a forest fight, for example. Villages and farms make strong points, especially for infantry.

      9.3.1) For attacking cities, there would be a larger battle screen that would include the city. All of buildings, wonders and even the citizens would be represented as icons on the map. All of them could be damaged during the battle. To capture the city, you would have to occupy the keep/city hall/capital.

      10. SIEGES

      10.1) A city cannot work squares beyond the ZOC circle that the seige forces have around the city. All squares that contain enemy units cannot be worked and if a square is in an enemy ZOC it doesn't produce anything, unless a friendly unit is in that square. Then the tile is still fully productive. If a both a friendly and an enemy ZOCs overlap in a square then that square produces ½ of it's normal value. (another idea was to put units “in” the city square & set to “siege”). A siege is useless unless you have enough units placed around the city, the number being proportional to the population of the city and perhaps the enemy units inside/around the city. Once the unit to city populace ratio has reached the necessary levels to shut off all incoming resources, the city will not be able to produce anything, and will start to starve if there is not enough food in the city stores (see CITY/REGIONAL MENUS). When this occurs there is a % chance each turn, based on SE choices (of both sides), city improvements, cultural differences, level at which city is defended, and happiness of city population that the city will surrender and join your Civ.

      10.2) Repairs can still be conducted. If repairs are done it reduces the food accumulation and production in the city stores proportional to the percent repaired.

      10.3) Seiges were expensive. There should be an Attrition Factor every turn of the seige, both for the city and the army.

      10.4) In an assault that takes a city after a long seige a sacking of the city is practically 100% -certainly no lower than 90%. A sack results in a large part of the city infrastructure going up in smoke and loss of population, and most of the cash from the place going directly to the troops, and not to the treasury. The probability based on whether a leader is present, the experience level of the troops, how well they have been supplied, and how long the siege has lasted.

      10.5) Some suggest that a siege require a siege weapon (catapult, etc.) and/or engineers, although usually a siege means that the city is not being attacked but starved out and a catapult would not be used. Catapults/Engineers would be more useful in an actual assault.

      10.6) Sieges would count as a minor atrocity toward the conquering civ’s ethnic group. In addition, troops often sold captives to slave dealers who followed the armies. This would further increase any diplomatic penalties of the seige.

      10.7) City can be supplied by air or by sea if sea blockade is not set up and/or if AA mechanisms are not in place (or cannot be used). Ships would "blockade" water squares, fighters would need Air Superiority over the city to stop supplies from arriving.

      10.8) Occupying enemy city squares (outside city) causes unhappiness in city.

      10.8.1) Disagreement: Only once food stops coming in or the food stores run out should unhappiness start to be a factor.


      As it stands, when you conquer a city it’s yours whether you want it or not. This must change. Maybe you don’t want the city at all and would prefer to set it free or burn it to the ground, or maybe you want to sack the city so that Partisans cannot attack you so easily (they can’t be supplied as well). These orders wouldn’t really make the game more tedious, since you don’t capture cities that often and a box pops up whenever you capture one anyway.

      Conquest Orders:

      11.1) Occupy:
      Same as what happens now when you enter a city, although with the new system perhaps Occupation will result in zero population loss and zero structural damage, but also zero income received. The default order.

      11.2) Plunder:
      Resupplies your army using the city’s resources (works well if a supply bar is used). Besieging armies will often do this automatically. Increases income (unless this is siphoned off by soldiers, which is likely), destroys more buildings and kills more civilians, and decreases the likelihood that Partisans will appear.

      11.2.1) Disagreement: Sacking/Plundering a city would cause MORE partisans to appear (ticked off more people).

      11.3) Sack:
      Same as Plunder, but also Liberates the city.

      11.4) Liberate:
      You put the city in the hands of a puppet government that is initially friendly to you. The city will take care of defending itself, and Partisans (opposed to you) are less likely to appear. The city will, essentially, become a barbarian city/minor civ. Will not work if the city was exceptionally loyal to its past Civ, as it will simply rejoin it.

      11.5) Raze:
      Burn the city to the ground! Doesn’t cause as much unhappiness or as many diplomatic repercussions as it would if you occupied the city and then razed it (as was an option in SMAC). Option to enslave populace, with more diplomatic penalties. After razing (or disbanding city) the ruins remain on map.

      11.6) Cities should be unwilling to join your empire unless you they were unhappy before and you treat them well after conquering. Conquered cities may revolt if army garrison not left behind.

      11.7) No more buying cities; spies cause cities to revolt, w/3 possible outcomes:

      The revolts are put down. Perhaps the city gets a happiness penalty for several turns or something.
      The city declares its independence.
      The city joins another civ, not necessarily yours. Ethnicity could play a big deal here.

      11.7.1) Include the concept of one city’s rioting causing nearby cities to riot.

      11.8) Don’t eliminate buying cities:
      * Increase cost. The number of units in a city should affect the price, but bribing units themselves should be a lot easier.
      * Happiness should affect cost of bribing city. Have a sliding scale of cost to buy cities, not “courthouse x2, in revolt x1/2”.


      12.1) Terrain:

      12.1.1) Like a bunker/fortification, walls greatly hinder movement to cross. May act as roads for infantry (Great Wall); Motorized/Mech cannot cross unless wall section destroyed.

      12.1.2) The square/hex where the defender was on the strategic map should determine the terrain setting used in the tactical game. Some option to design and assign specific tactical terrain sets to specific hexes on the strategic map would make for great historical play.

      12.1.3) Air units shouldn’t get DEF mods of forts, terrain when flying overhead!

      12.2) Morale & Training:

      12.2.1) Morale affects when a unit will “break”. Raw recruits break easily, elite troops seldom do. Highest level is fanatical, these troops never break. Break means to retreat in combat, w/ or w/o an orderly retreat (rout).

      12.2.2) Morale & training are separate as far as armies go. Training changes slowly (combat or lack thereof) while morale can quickly change, even in middle of a fight!

      12.3) Generals:

      12.3.1) A unit can be set to defend a city, an area around a city, a region, etc., which it could do automatically if invaded. The problem with this is that one doesn't know how big an invading army is until it invades. A solution might be to use an AI “general”. It could handle defense and possibly offense. This would be someone whom the player receives or hires from a selection with different characteristics, that one could give basic orders to "defend our borders" or "invade civilization X". They would then sort out troops and respond to any invasions, or carry out an invasion.

      12.3.2) A civ will not get (build?) a General until after a certain advance and the quality of the General would vary (think MOO2).

      12.3.3) Certain Wonders, like Sun Tzu's Academy or Greater General Staff (new) would also allow 'upgraded' Generals. The number of units the General could command, what he could do with them on the Battle Screen, and possibly even how far he could stretch his Supply Line or how fast he could move his army would vary with these ratings.

      12.3.4) General units could regulate stacking and the moving of units in the Battle Screen.

      12.3.5) AI generals can be set to fight battles for you. General names are taken from historical leaders of that civ, and are only around for a short time.

      12.3.6) Leaders/generals could be made less abstract and more personable by assuming they are the current generation member of a ongoing family.

      12.4) Naming units, to give a sense of history and identity.

      12.5) Counterespionage is too weak. Increase chance of counter-E catching spies.

      12.6) Structural Damage:
      City Improvements and Terrain Improvements have hit points proportional to their technological age, upkeep, and the number of shields required for them to be built. Bombardment and Raids, as well as many other forms of combat, will damage them. Damage will cause a loss of function on a curve, so that a 20% damaged structure may only lose 5% of its use, but a 75% damaged structure will lose 90% of its use. Once they reach 0 hit points, they are destroyed. It costs gold and/or shields to repair these, although some repair work is automatic and it is almost always cheaper to repair than to replace.

      12.7) Use a 3D sphere for the world and have all terrain in 3D. Then add “altitude” factors to units to state how high they can shoot (or how high they fly). Cities will no longer collect resources from production radiuses but from production spheres, as they will be able to dig to deeper depths and farm in the clouds using future technology. Unit ZOC’s will be spheroids or paraboloids, which means that an airplane can fly over a phalanx without violating the phalanx’s ZOC.

      12.8) Be able to change home cities anytime, anyplace, in order to help in support.

      12.9) In a Democracy or Republic, units cause unhappiness by being outside of their Civ’s borders, not by leaving the home city.

      Giant Squid, FinnishGuy, Alexander's Horse, Captain Action, Jimmy, Ove, Pathless1, Black Dragon, Flavor Dave, Pythagoras, Mo, NotLikeTea, Sieve Too, Ecce Homo, Mhistbuff, Trachmyr, delcuze2, ember, Frank Johnson, Shining1, Bell, Redleg, Doo1284, don Don, Goob, Jon Miller, Diodorus Sicilus, Warspite, VaderTwo, Feanor, Eggman, Picker, korn469, Hans2, Theben, Francis, Mr. Bigglesworth, Darkstarr, AXM, Mingko, Cybershy, Agent 000, Jakester, E, Miner, Knight_Errant, Victor Galis, Depp, Icedan, technophile, Snowfire, Iceman88888888, Westergaard, marc420, raingoon, M@ni@c, SWPIGWANG
      <font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Theben (edited November 12, 1999).]</font>
      I'm consitently stupid- Japher
      I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned


      • #4
        I'm consitently stupid- Japher
        I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned


        • #5
          I've been wondering bout damage. In real combat, all units do not die, some of them just get wounded. Therefore, I propose that damage is modified. It could include both wounded and killed. Wounded can be healed in normal Civ2 style, ie resting for a while. Dead, on the other hand, can't be revived, so you'd have to go to city where you can recruit more men to unit. Wounded men cannot fight, but still et supplies; If enemy attacks unit, and the defending unit has to retreat, wounded men die (they are left behind.) The ratio of how many of men die and how many are wounded is modified by technology, particulary medical one: It could be 1-to-5 in start of game, 2-to-5 with discovery of Medicine, 3-to-5 with Surgery, and so on. This would make combat bit more realistic, I believe, while it would not worsen the game by making it too complex.

          My other idea is particulary good if cities have exact figures of population (ie. 16378, for instance) as well as units. When unit retreats, maybe wounded men could get captured instead; That makes them prisoners of war. These prisoners are then sent to nearest city. After war is concluded, they can be article of negotiation. There are several modes you can take with them:

          1) Kill. No prisoners are taken. This is considered an atrocity.
          2) Forced Labor. They are put to hard labor. In this case, they are considered as "temporary citizens." They act almost exactly like slaves, except it is not so bad for reputation.
          3) Recruit. You try to actively recruit these to your own army. How well you fare depends on nationalis of army, maybe also morale of the soldiers.
          4) Brainwash. You attempt to change their patterns of thinking to favor you. This is more efficient than option 3, but is considered an minor atrocity.
          5) Keep (for lack of better term.). They are kept as prisoners, in hard conditions. They don't eat much, and don't work, but hey, there's no reputaiton penalty (at least until Geneva Convention.)
          6 Treat Well. Like 5, but they gain more food and therefore more support. This might even improve your reputation, as well (slightly) lower morale of enemy's units.
          7) Release. Soldiers are returned to their cities and become ordinary citizens. This is usually done at end of war.

          I could write more, but my time is up.
          "Spirit merges with matter to sanctify the universe. Matter transcends to return to spirit. The interchangeability of matter and spirit means the starlit magic of the outermost life of our universe becomes the soul-light magic of the innermost life of our self." - Dennis Kucinich, candidate for the U. S. presidency
          "That’s the future of the Democratic Party: providing Republicans with a number of cute (but not that bright) comfort women." - Adam Yoshida, Canada's gift to the world


          • #6
            Where is maneuver points. I didn't see it in the new version(maybe i misseded).Think about all the things you can do with it.


            • #7
              ????? Was that in an older thread? Bear in mind that posts that I couldn't make sense of were deleted.
              I'm consitently stupid- Japher
              I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned


              • #8
                I'm pretty sure that Maneuver Points got in there somewhere (my summary that is). I'd find out exactly where, but I'm stuffed right now and am probably going to take a nap soon. I'll look for it later.
                <p style="font-size:1024px">HTML is disabled in signatures :( :( :(</p>


                • #9
                  I'm consitently stupid- Japher
                  I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned


                  • #10
                    Whatever happened with the summaries, Theben? Did your Combat summary get emailed off to Firaxis?
                    <p style="font-size:1024px">HTML is disabled in signatures :( :( :(</p>


                    • #11
                      I'll e-mail you.
                      I'm consitently stupid- Japher
                      I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned


                      • #12
                        I have a quick suggestion to make. Harriers and Helicopters etc are expected to fly from field sights as opposed to bases. They do though have performance and load carrying problems. How about vstol aircraft and helicopters simply acting as fighter bombers that have 1/2 range and 2/3 attack etc for a normal aircraft of the same cost etc but allow them to base anywhere. I assume that the slow incremental away from base damage for helicopters in civ2 is to represent this.


                        • #13
                          *Bumped* for Raingoon's (and anyone else who wants to) perusal. Check out the very top under Combat Systems.
                          I'm consitently stupid- Japher
                          I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned


                          • #14
                            If you're describing what I think you're describing with regards to the battle map and conducting combat thereupon, what you have will be about as much fun as the combat systems in "Imperialism" or "Masters of Orion". You need more room to manuever, and realistic terrain to provide enought variety to make playing the battle map fun. I think what you're describing would become tedious very quickly.
                            "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!


                            • #15
                              Don't get me wrong, I like the basic idea, I just think that the battlefield will need to be larger that 5 by 3, and you should have some sort of terrain generator that takes into account the surrounding terrain on the strategic map. with regards to formations the designer will need to consider that units in the 20th century and beyond don't deploy in the types of formations used in previous centuries. I suppose yopu could let someone deploy their infantry in line attack formation, just to mimic early WWI casulty rates. In fact, the very scale of the battle map in the 20th century will need to be changed. Battles in previous centuries rarely covered more then 5 miles of frontage, but battles in this century may cover hundreds of miles. Consider that on the strategis map a tile may represnt an area more than 200 by 200 miles.
                              "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!