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How science works and why there IS a 4 turn cap

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  • #46
    Several of the techs are listed as optional. However, sometimes I am forced to research every tech before being allowed to advance to the next age, even the optional techs. I have gotten techs in 3 turns, however, usually when I do (and sometimes when it takes longer) I cannot build the wonder, city imp. or do any of the features the tech offers until the next turn. However, it only seems to allow you to do the 3 turns for a tech if you previously turned down science to pump up your economy and after starting the next tech, (selecting it, but no beakers generated) then you can up your science and get the next in three turns. However, it does not seem to work for the next time. I might be missing a few factors.

    I don't really consider it a problem though as you only get to that point by the modern age typically and then the tech advances are coming so often, 1 turn doesn't typically matter all that much. Like ICBMs are only 4 turns from tactical nukes. What difference does it make if it takes 4 turns vs. 3. Just have ur nuke producing cities start on a Palace and then just switch. Its cheap, but hey. To be honest though I think that the free switch from a Palace is a lot cheaper (bellow the belt) way of playing than caravans... (not that I don't use it all the time).

    Think about it though, its bad enough that tactical nukes are obsolete in 4 turns (That means in the same time than you can build tactical nukes, put the absuradly limited number aboard one of your subs and then get it to an enemy, you could have finished researching ICBMs and built them). Imagine if every modern tech was made obsolete in 1 or 2 turns (like in civ 2). If someone fell behind they could never catch the leader. By the same token, once reaching the end of the tree the leader would have to quickly take advantage of this (which for military conquest they would not have the spare money to buy airports, temples etc. necessary to sustain an advance on all but the smallest maps). If they failed to do so all they would get would be a few culture bonuses for furture techs, while everyone else eventually caught up and then they would find themselves without the tech advantage. It would be ridiculous. This way the leader is assured that those trailing can never pass them, and they have a safety money and time slot to work with to make things happen.

    Just adjust the slider to give you as much gold as possible without increasing the research time. Though I admit it would have been nicer (As David Weldon mentioned) if they just built this feature in... I've been thinking about seeing if it is possible to create a bot to do this as well as one to allow me to use a variety of build queues that will alter given certain obvious circumstances. Does anyone think this would be possible just using the editor to change the domestic advisor and the govenors? I can't get the editor to allow me to do anything other than create a map, place resources and starting positions, and save it with a discription. All other options are grayed out no matter what I do with all the other options that aren't.


    • #47
      Show me the Money!

      Originally posted by regoarrarr
      Okay - I did some more researching. I started a new game on a tiny map, and purposely did not research Pottery, which has a tech cost of 2. That should have taken 32 beakers, but even though I was able to get up to 21 beakers a turn, I never reduced my tech costs under 4 turns.

      So I think the reports (including mine) of researching a tech in 3 turns or less were anecdotal, i.e. viewing the remaining turns per tech after a turn had already passed.

      What I'd like to see is a screenshot of the popup the game gives you right after you finish researching a tech. The one that says, our wisemen / sages / scientists have finished researching blah, what should we research now. If someone could post one that lists off an advance in 3 turns or less, then I will believe that there is in fact a 4 turn cap.

      If I see a screenshot (or even someone posting that they saw this particular screen with 3 turns), then I will believe that, and then we'll have to re-think the science model. Until then, looks like there's a 4 turn / tech cap, which may lead science players as well as OCCers to re-think their strategies
      This is the best suggestion I've seen yet!
      For all you folks claiming to have 3 turn techs, lets see the screen shot described above by regoarrarr.

      If you can't come up with the screen shot, then it's settled. 4 turns is the limit. End of story.
      My Reach always exceeds my Grasp...


      • #48

        The 1.16f patch resolved this once and for all by including in the editor the "Min turns for tech" field, in which is entered a big 4. No more argument necessary.



        • #49
          scientist or taxman?

          Dear gamers,

          probably it's already answered somewhere but I couldn't find it - so here's my question.

          Is it better to get as much $$$ as possible by the use of taxmen and then invest every grain of gold in research or should I send all my taxmen to school and transform them into scientists?

          (Just played monach with the egyptians on a huge pangea map and won the space race in eighteensixtynine. I never fought a war, convinced peacefully ten or so alien cities to join my empire and was (after a long head to head race with the babylonians, the germans and the greek) number one in the end in rank, population, territory and so on ... but I just don't know what a scientist is good for. Please tell me.)

          Thank you

          Best Regards



          • #50
            Per default rates in the Editor, a Taxman provides 1 gold directed to the Treasury and a Scientist provides 1 gold directed to Science research.

            If you just need to tweak your science, then a scientist might be in order, though we do not have tools to determine just how much more expenditure is required. Otherwise, I cannot see how it makes any meaningful difference, so if you have so much cash that you are totally comfortable with it, put them to science.

            If you have ZERO percentage allocated to gold, then definitely create a Scientist from one of your 1 citizens if you can at all afford to.

            (Just to cover the bases): If you have a citizen who can work a tile with a river and/or road, that citizen might be creating much more than 1 gold, depending on government, presence of library, marketplace, etc.


            • #51
              scientist or taxman?

              Thank you for answering, Jaybe

              I still can't see the point. If the 1 gold of the scientist going directly to research counts the same as the 1 gold gathered by the taxman and then tranfered to research via the slider then there is no advantage in having a scientist at all.

              Right or false

              Thank you


              • #52
                Uh, wait ... maybe i got it. It could be useful for micromanaging in that case that one or two coins of gold would make the difference betweem getting a tech 1 turn earlier or later. The slider doesn't gives me the ability to spent precisely 1 or to coins more - it would be hundreds.

                Another question. I can't see the effect the changing of a taxman into a scientist has on the city managing screen (I CAN see people getting happy or unhappy when i change him into an entertainer)?

                right or false

                thank you


                • #53
                  One thing that can be useful in making one scientist in a city, is that if you turn off the science on the slider and have at least one scientist, you will still be researching.


                  • #54
                    Yes. Just a few thoughts (nothing so serious). I don't think that all these 'taxmen' in my cities are really taxmen. How could my citizens be happy all the time (and they ARE happy) with so many people around grasping at their money.
                    A 'taxman' - in the civIII universe other than in real life - is somebody who pays more taxes than the average, not someone who makes the others pay more. Your taxmen are the managers, businessmen, professors, 747 pilots, nuclear submarine commanders, pcgames architects and brain surgery specialists of your society. - The same thing with all those mines. They are not really mines. They have been mines a kong time, than industrial zones, than - maybe - high tech industry complexes. - I like the game as it is (those hills, those rivers, those arabesque railroad labyrinths) - just a consideration. if somebody would force me to have one ---: how about making the look of these 'mines' in the modern age look alittlebit - more modern?

                    Hope I didn't bore you

                    Have a nice day


                    • #55
                      My contribution to the question 'how science works' (just a theory, maybe complete nonsense - maybe a decisive point not yet considered): I suspect that there is a major difference between science on the one hand and production and population growth on the other. I suspect that the beakers you actually HAVE are ROUNDED UP EVERY TURN. That would explain, how you can get a tech in forty turns with just one scientist = one gold = one beaker working on it. This one beaker counts more than one beaker EVERY TURN of your forty moves. Say - just an example - there is a minimum of 10 beakers per turn in a given situation of the game. One, eight or ten scientists working to get the tech would all produce the same 10 beakers. If there would be eleven scientists there would be a jump and your new science rate would be - let's say - 20 beakers a turn


                      • #56
                        ... at least this is the way I would have programmed it.

                        Have a nice day


                        • #57
                          another consideration (i know, this may be not precisely the topic here, but now I AM HERE - and too lazy to change the thread ... something I dream of and wish eagerly to have in the future (civ IV or V - AND I DON'T WANT 3D) is CHARACTERISTIC IMAGES for all those towns. How nice it would be to see my Alexandria look really different from my Heliopolis, to see a Paris on the map with a tiny Eiffel Tower in it, a Rom with the Colloseum or a Las Vegas with - instead of the statue of liberty - a statue of a showgirl in it... :-)

                          Have a beautiful day


                          • #58
                            Watergate, you are right that basically, assigning cits as scientists makes no sense. I only rarely do it, and then it is either because I have 0% research or I have so much cash flow that I don't give a bleep.

                            Then again, I rarely have cits not working those tiles...