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  • Alexander's Horse
    replied
    your ignorance is excused

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  • Solomwi
    replied
    Catt, it's just that I've never found overall land to be a hindrance in building my empire, but I play wide open maps (huge, continents, 8 civs).

    Don't misunderstand, I ultimately expand beyond "uselessness" (poor term on my part, maybe "non-productive" is more appropriate) in search of UP, at least wanting all of my continent. And, for the record, I tend to use an amalgam of CxxC and CxxxC, depending on terrain and circumstances at the time of settler production/city founding, minimizing overlap and at the same time minimizing unreachable tiles, but with an eye to establishing chokepoints and "picket lines" to cut off enemy expansion. I'm going to have to re-evaluate taxmen with C3C, but up thorugh PTW, they, by themselves, haven't been enough incentive to produce a settler and send it out.

    I'm not arguing against tight spacing (or at least not meaning to), just trying to get a better grip on the "unworked tile" justification for it. I'm on board with it because of the other benefits, i.e. tile-sharing, defense, etc. Even with primarily three tile spacing, I can, in the late game, cherry pick which cities grow where in my cores enough to get plenty of 100+ shield cities (and 120+ after Robotics).

    Two or three metropolises pumping out a tank in one turn surrounding a city set to produce cruise missiles, as a general pattern, is very powerful, and very attainable, even with 3 tile spacing.

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  • zorbop
    replied
    i find cxxxxc to be the best method, even on higher difficulty levels.

    For C3C though, i have been developing a different method.
    I try to keep my first 5 cities or so all a different distance from the capital. Kind of a spiral pattern. This allows for minimal corruption. I like to have 5 or 6 productive cities, and the rest a really just to take up space and raise my culture(at least before communism/fascism/democracy)

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  • Catt
    replied
    Originally posted by Solomwi


    That's my point, and the reason for my last paragraph. On a huge map, I can usually expand to uselessness in the early game far before running out of land, so a higher proportion of my tiles being worked due to tighter spacing doesn't really make a difference. Either way I've got the same amount of tiles being productively worked.
    Solomwi - I'm not sure I understand your point. If you can expand to "uslessness" before running out of land, then you might reassess what is useless. If, within you overall empire, there are tiles that are both not used and not going to be used before hospitals, then you are not taking every advantage available to you. Even a temporary city plopped down could produce workers or artillery units, without any improvements or upkeep responsibilities. Even fully corrupt cities can create taxmen for extra gold. How can you have the same amount of tiles being productively worked as a 3-tile empire if some of your tiles are not being worked?

    Other benefits of 3-tile spacing includes (i) tile sharing (workers can improve certain tiles that are worked by citizens of different towns depending on city size when city size fluctuates due to settler/worker production), meaning less worker investment for more "effective" improved tiles and (ii) flexible defense or flexible mood control (even 1-move units can move from one city to another in one turn.

    I've found 3-tile spacing is powerful, but come to enjoy 4-tile spacing unless the terrain demands otherwise (4-tile being CxxxC) -- it allows a moderate degree of power in the early game, and also allows a decent city size after hospitals. In other words, I am convinced that 3-tile is more powerful but 4-tile more enjoyable.

    Catt

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  • Solomwi
    replied
    Originally posted by CerberusIV


    Surely the point is that your civ is working a higher proportion of the tiles within your territory once your cities reach size 12 if you have more cities on a tighter spacing.
    That's my point, and the reason for my last paragraph. On a huge map, I can usually expand to uselessness in the early game far before running out of land, so a higher proportion of my tiles being worked due to tighter spacing doesn't really make a difference. Either way I've got the same amount of tiles being productively worked.

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  • CerberusIV
    replied
    Originally posted by Solomwi
    Prior to hospitals, reducing the number of unworked tiles with city placement does not increase the number of worked tiles, so what is the "fewer unworked tile benefit" on, say, a wide grassland expanse with no rivers (just to eliminate the more beneficial tile issue)?
    Surely the point is that your civ is working a higher proportion of the tiles within your territory once your cities reach size 12 if you have more cities on a tighter spacing. Once your cities hit 12 they can't work any more tiles and the only way to increase the ouputs from your civ is more cities. Basically it is a trade off between a larger population working more tiles from late ancient to early industrial or a larger population after the early industrial once you can build hospitals.

    Possibly leaving a few cities with more space to grow into monsters later a tighter spacing for most cities is beneficial in the middle game where it really matters.

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  • Solomwi
    replied
    Arrian's answer begs a question I've been mulling over for a while: that of the early game unworked tile. Now, I can understand the problem if you're leaving a bonus or river tile unworked due to city placement and instead have a citizen working a plains tile or something. My hangup is as follows.

    Prior to hospitals, reducing the number of unworked tiles with city placement does not increase the number of worked tiles, so what is the "fewer unworked tile benefit" on, say, a wide grassland expanse with no rivers (just to eliminate the more beneficial tile issue)?

    It just hit me that on smaller than huge maps, the overall land issue could be the root of this, which would explain why I've never seen the benefit of trying it in my games. So let me rephrase the question to "Is that it, or are there other benefits I'm not seeing?"

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  • Mountain Sage
    replied
    Don't forget to take into account the level of the game and the kind of world you're in.
    You should use the same tight spacing when you play archipelago/small continents and/or Emperor and Deity.
    The AI usually goes for a CxxxC or even CxxxxC spacing. By having a CxxC spacing you can pack more cities on the available land. This gives you more gold and especially military units.
    Of course, once you have hospitals, you have often to allocate manually which tiles are used by which city, but by then the game should be (almost) over.
    You can look at some posted games (for ex. my 'Emperor' thread). The visuals between the AI lands and mine are very telling.

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  • CerberusIV
    replied
    Explore early and identify the key sites for chokepoints, resources, etc. Settle them and backfill. I don't use a fixed pattern but rule of thumb is that if it looks too close it is probably right. You should aim to give each city a potential 12 workeable tiles and allow coastal cities the possibility of expanding into sea tiles with hospitals later in the game.

    I have been playing since just before PTW came out and am only now getting city placement close enough. I am in a bit of trouble in some of my PBEM's as I haven't packed enough cities into my territory. Some of those games are rescueable by putting towns in between the cities, some aren't.

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  • Theseus
    replied
    ducki makes an interesting point that is not often addressed... the direction of city spacing.

    As previously noted, I think 3-tile spacing is in general the easiest style, especially for newer players.

    But let's make something clear: That does NOT have to be in a straight line!!

    We usually express such as CxxC. Using ducki's convention:

    C
    x
    x
    C

    But this is good too:

    C
    x
    x
    xC

    as is:

    C
    x
    xx
    xxxC

    ... as well as similar permutations.

    Use the terrain! Rivers, hills, access to resources, etc.

    Have a nice CP day ...

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  • Arrian
    replied
    I've grown used to CxxxC. I used to prefer CxxxxC, but that results in too many tiles not worked prior to hospitals.

    Amongst those who play on the upper levels, my CxxxC is considered "wide" spacing. I play primarly on Monarch and it works well there.

    Edit: I should point out that I do not hold to a specific pattern religiously. If getting a city on a river/lake or some other such bonus (hill defense bonus, blocking a "chokepoint" etc) means moving it a tile, so be it. So in certain situations, my cities may be CxxC or CxxxxC.

    -Arrian

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  • ducki
    replied
    I was always fond of 3 diagonal tiles + 1 orthogonal between cities - this allows the "fat plus-sign" that your eventual 21-tile workable area becomes to match up with each other.
    C
    x
    x
    x
    xC
    I hope that worked(edit:maybe it'll work this time).
    Problem is, you end up with a block of 4 tiles that don't get worked on two sides, as well as an impossible time expanding that out beyond the first 5 cities and a minimum of two-turn movement from one city to the next for foot-units.

    It _looks_ really good, but isn't really a viable option (for me) above Regent. Aggregating and analyzing the collected wisdom of the strategy regulars here, I try for CxxdC or CxxC depending on location of rivers, hills, luxuries, bonus tiles, etc. CxxC seems to allow for the most flexibility in defense, as you can have 1 defender for every 2 or 3 cities in a pinch, but I sure hate the whole borg-look.

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  • vmxa1
    replied
    CxxxxC is very hard to pull off above Monarch.

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  • grappleman
    replied
    ive found CxxxxC works quite well as it allows for maximum growth of your cities in the late game. also if you are a religios civ this is easy to accomplish with cheap temples.

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  • vmxa1
    replied
    I would say you can't go too far wrong with CxxC in CivIII or PTW.
    More complex plans are to be found, such as camps and RCP in the links mentioned by Catt.
    I am still blundering around for a plan in C3C.

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