Culture Victory

[Aeson]

My point about Cultural 100k victories wasn't that it's easier or harder, but that to get the absolutely best Cultural 100k date for a given map, the formula is less apparent than any other victory condition. 'Borging' will get you a rather fast Cultural 100k victory on larger maps, but except for maps with tons of room for expansion (huge/8AI types, even then it won't be optimal), it will be quite a bit slower than what is possible.

A well played Cultural 100k victory requires a fast tech rate (especially with the Internet in PtW), efficient and fast conquest early with steady conquest later, two stage city placement plan, all while determining the optimum ratio of expansion to building improvements. It's quite a balancing act, and really well played Cultural games are the rarest.

All the other victory conditions are much more straightforward in how to approach them in regards to fastest finish type games. They also are limited in how many facets of the game are involved. Conquests tend to either be basic economic buildup and then go, Domination being much the same. Tech rate can be (and often is required to be) retarded after the desired unit tech is reached. Spaceship is all about tech rate, so is Diplomatic. Minimal expansion/conquest is required (and often further conquest hurts rather than helps) for both, and city developement is inconsequential after a Palace/FP core has been set up in any case.

[Catt]

Originally posted by MysteryMan
I would also like to agree here. The cultural win is (IMHO) the most difficult to get (as long as you're playing the game and not following some lame-ass formula like some 'players' do. If you don't beat the game on it's own terms, you didn't beat the game!)

[. . . .]

If you are going for diplomacy (why bother? way too easy) . . .

I'm not a huge fan of diplo wins, but I always seem to fall into line to defend them. I would say that your first statement re: culture wins is as applicable, if not more so, to diplo wins as culture wins.

Winning a diplomacy victory without resorting to any of the numerous "formulas" for success can be challenging -- even if you trade techs and resources like mad, the ties that bind (and lead to UN votes in your favor) tend to be military alliances and MPPs, and entering such deals is risky and nuanced when you're trying to keep up a positive reputation and worldwide attitudes throughout a long game.

Catt

[Theseus]

Agreed... traits, UUs, GWs... bah, the good Civ3 player can win, however chosen, under any circumstance.

[MysteryMan]

Scientific is a big advantage in a cultural victory because you get cheaper technological buildings (which contribute culture - there are other postings which tell you how much is contributed by which improvement).
IMHO this is no more necessary than Religious. (by the by, religious SURE is helpful, same with scientific.... all traits can be utilized for any victory by a creative player, but no trait is necessary for any specific victory, as long as the player can use them properly...)

[Solomwi]

Originally posted by neptuno
To achieve a cultural victory, you must play as a scientific civ. You will probably will have to wait to the middle of the modern era to reach it. But it has to be combined with military expansion.

Not sure I understand you right. I've gotten many cultural victories on Regent/Monarch with civs like America, Egypt, the Celts and England, all non-scientific.

[neptuno]

To achieve a cultural victory, you must play as a scientific civ. You will probably will have to wait to the middle of the modern era to reach it. But it has to be combined with military expansion.

[MysteryMan]

I would also like to agree here. The cultural win is (IMHO) the most difficult to get (as long as you're playing the game and not following some lame-ass formula like some 'players' do. If you don't beat the game on it's own terms, you didn't beat the game!)
The problem, of course, is that of all the ways to win the game, culture is the one that does not help you out at all in a fight. If you are trying for a spaceship, at least you will have lots of production capacity/tech. If you are playing for conquest/domination then you have a large army. If you are going for diplomacy (why bother? way too easy) you still have that large production/tech base, plus all the good diplomacy that is necessary tends to get you out of wars. However, every single thing you do to raise your culture makes you an easier and more tempting target for the AI, because,
a)Your frontier size 6 city is as developed as their core size 12 city but is a much easier target because you've gutted your treasury/population rushing temples, libraries, etc WHILE they have built soldiers
b)The other civs do not respect you until you have destroyed at least one civ
c)Going to war is much more difficult as you have less units to start with and less inclination to attack (which is much more effective than defending in most cases)
d)There are numerous highly-effective 'formulas' that can be followed by the warmonger which almost ensure success without thought.

The only thing a Cultural victory doesn't have is the satisfaction of crushing your enemies...

[Theseus]

I very much agree with Aeson...

Culture Borging is boring and more or less an exploit. Playing a balanced game to a culture win... that's cool, very Seven Pillars-ish.

[Aeson]

I like the dynamic offered by Cultural 100k victory. To get an early cultural victory isn't just build cities, build culture, and wait. Balancing expansion, improvements, and city placement is more intricate for cultural victories than for the other victory types IMO.

[Solomwi]

The 100K culture victory is good for one thing, IMO... sealing a win for those of us for whom winning the game is a lower priority than the epic story of the game.

To expound a bit, I build cultural improvements in my cities because they provide happiness and research, and Wonders because they're Great , and because I want my borders expanded, not because I'm actively pursuing a cultural win. Having culture victories turned on allows me to build my empire for the empire's sake, and not so much worry about having to pigeonhole my production to fit one of the other conditions. I'll usually still build the spaceship out of pride and, depending on the circumstances, still try to roll over any civs left after I've won... eventually. This, I think, is more of a huge map mindset, though.

[Datajack Franit]

Cultural victory is stupid in the same way the name suggests

[vmxa1]

There a few AU games that may give you pause at emperor, such AU208.

[Dactyl]

I see what you mean, Dominae. I am now playing a test game going for a culture victory using the Babylonians and it is indeed turning into a wait fest. I mainly wanted to try something different. I find that, even on Emperor level, the spaceship victory is too easy in the sense that the AI apparently isn't aware that you're going for a spaceship so they aren't aggressive about acquiring the proper techs and building their own.

The biggest problem with Civ3, one that is shared by all games in this genre, is that you reach a point where you realize that you're going to win the game and then you just have to play it out. Unfortunately, even on the Emperor level that is fairly early.

[Dominae]

If you're really serious about the Culture victory, there's an semi-algorithmic way of doing it that's very little fun: pack as many cities on your continent as possible, and build all the Culture improvements in them as quickly as possible.

Even if you do not employ the above strategy, the AI never really rivals a serious focus on Culture production, so 100k Culture victory games end up being nothing more than a big long wait.

I hope I'm not ruining this aspect of the game for you...I'm just explaining why it was not considered as attractive as Domination or Spaceship.


Dominae

[vmxa1]

We only had so many teams and that is what they choose to play.
There was some talk of some new players jumping in to do a run at culture, but so far none have.