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Koreans and the Early Game

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  • Arrian
    replied
    Yahweh,

    If you're going to fight, remember to use the upgrades!

    Don't build swordsmen! 30 shields per unit? That's crazy! Build warriors. Build chariots. Then use a mass upgrade. The warrior one is the most effective, since it cuts out 20 shields, whereas the chariot one only cuts out 10 (though it is cheaper). It's pretty easy to put together 10-15 veteran warriors, whether or not you're playing a militaristic civ. That force can do a lot of damage, as well as deter potential opponents.

    This requires cash, of course, which is why the warmonger often uses 40-turn research.

    But you don't have to warmonger. As I said, there is little functional difference between warmongering with 10% science and building the GL with 10% science (in terms of your research & development strategy. Obviously if you start getting leaders from your wars, that changes things).

    -Arrian

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  • Yahweh Sabaoth
    replied
    Originally posted by jshelr
    To make a long story short, in answer to the second question, I believe that humans armed with archers and spears can defeat AI civs who have a full ancient era capability of horsemen and swords nearly every time. Every civ is a warmongers' civ from this point of view.
    Well, I guess you're right. As long as you've got enough of 'em. Still, I don't fancy the odds much. But maybe I should just try a pure archer rush, every city cranking out a vet archer/sword/horseman, while the most productive city builds the GL... [sigh] Just hope those neighbors don't get their iron hooked up too soon.

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  • jshelr
    replied
    Questions from above:

    "Ever played a dominant game out to the end (SS) with a commercial civ?"

    "Ugh, how can you warmonger as the Koreans though?"

    In answer to these questions, Korea just finished a military or conquest win on my computer last night. Having only one face left on the circle is fun.

    After a tough warmonger start in the middle of a pangea map surrounded by Persia, Rome, and the Mongols, Korea went builder while the squabbling neighbors fought to the end. Korea, as Arrian pointed out, is a great civ for the late game research effort and, as I recall, the UN started a golden age. Korea ended up with MA far before anyone else had mechanized infantry and tried for a 4-civs-in-one-turn ending. Didn't quite make it, although we did use up 15 settlers grabbing RR tiles to extend the blitz in a fun effort.

    To make a long story short, in answer to the second question, I believe that humans armed with archers and spears can defeat AI civs who have a full ancient era capability of horsemen and swords nearly every time. Every civ is a warmongers' civ from this point of view.

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  • Yahweh Sabaoth
    replied
    Ugh, how can you warmonger as the Koreans though?

    Assuming you're going for Lit/Currency at a low tech rate, and trading for Iron Working/HR, your neighbors - who you'll buy these military techs from, presumably - will have horsies and swordsmen to fight back with, by the time you build them.

    Building barracks is, of course, no problem, but I was discouraged from this tack when I did exactly this (not lowering my tech, but otherwise the same). I had about 7 cities with barracks, and horses... the Mongols started a war with me, and they were sending down swordsmen... I quit that game because I knew I could fend them off, but I wasn't sure if I could win, and my other neighbors were pulling ahead of me in every way.

    Could just be luck of the draw - those Mongols were on hilly terrain, with iron... I could try it again... but warmongering seems like such a poor choice. I would definitely not say it's a poor choice for the other Sci/Com combo, but then again, Koreans don't have hoplites.

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  • Arrian
    replied
    As you guys know, I play as a bloodthirsty maniac, but I have been playing commercial civs of late (Carthage, Rome).

    It is with commercial civs that I use tighter city spacing, figuring that the boost to the OCN is best used by packing in more cities (keep in mind that my "tighter spacing" is probably either normal spacing, or wider, to many of the upper level players here). I'm basically talking about City-tile-tile-tile-City, with some City-tile-tile-City occasionally thrown in.

    There is little functional difference between using 10% research and warmongering, beating techs out of the AI and using 10% research and building the GL. Same end result, and often a similar shield outlay (though the former allows you to try for leaders ). Anyway, since I'm not researching on my own, I don't see the point in building and paying upkeep on libraries.

    I'd rather make my cities more efficient (courthouses), larger (aqueducts), and wealthier/happier (markets). Libraries really come into their own once you're in republic with large cities that aren't losing too much commerce to corruption. I will, however, sometimes build 1 libary in my capitol if I am planning on doing a burst of research to nab a tech first and trade it. But otherwise, libraries are kinda down the list.

    SR - I don't typically rush the libraries w/gold, except in certain cases (Colossus city, want the library done so I can start a Copernicus prebuild, or something like that).

    -Arrian

    p.s. Ever played a dominant game out to the end (SS) with a commercial civ? It's INSANE how much money you end up with. I just finished a game as Rome (Domination in the early modern age... dumbass Zulu just couldn't leave me alone) wherein I had over 20,000 gold and literally could not spend it. My home cities were fully developed. My "colonial possessions" were getting there (rushing everything after a 1-turn wait). 4-turn research. 99% approval rating (1% being specialists). I couldn't spend as fast as it was coming in. It has been my most dominant game (vis-a-vis the AI) ever. I even managed to own every surviving wonder (oracle razed by others), with almost all of them built or rushed myself. And all of them worked for me (all continent-wide wonders on my continent, Colossus captured close enough to FP to be useful, etc). That game rocked.

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  • jshelr
    replied
    Arrian: "I will often build the GL while doing 40-turn research and building courthouses, markets, aqueducts, harbors, etc (everything BUT libraries). Then, with a huge wad of cash and tech parity, I suddenly build a TON of libraries and crank up my research."

    This works well. I extend it to universities and postpone the catch up phase to the start of the industrial era. Not building libraries and universites saves piles of money and shifts shields to units builds. Meantime, markets and banks cause the gold to flow in. In Korea's case, if some of the wider city spacing advocated above is used, we need to come up with a building to expand city borders, and libraries might do that job.

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  • Yahweh Sabaoth
    replied
    Hehn, I'll have to try all this out. I'd much rather just kill all my neighbors but I guess that's not an option so much, as the Koreans.

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  • Harovan
    replied
    I wouldn't build the GL in the capital. Build it in a close core city and pump it up to the happiness limit by adding workers (don't let it grow - too slow).

    Arrian: Good approach, to max out money first, and then rushbuy lots of libs at once.

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  • Yahweh Sabaoth
    replied
    To make an admission I'm sort of ashamed of, I have yet to play a game where I research at 10%, or accept 40-turn discoveries, in the early game. Bear in mind I'm still playing Regent here (yes, I'm probably ready for Monarch but I'm not moving on until I've won as every civ, and that takes time), so it hasn't occurred to me to try this out. Maybe I will try it this game.

    After using Seoul to send out a settler or two, you would begin the prebuild for the GL? I've been using my captial as a settler pump mostly, building the GL only when it becomes availible... I will also try this strategy.

    Unfortunately, I'll have to wait until the weekend to try this out... I've become quite a good little warmonger, but the peaceful strategies for a "sleeper" civ like Korea still allude me a bit.

    Thanks for the help, everyone.

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  • Arrian
    replied
    Yahweh,

    Though I'm no expert (Com/Sci is a trait combo I haven't played in a long while... which means I'm due, actually), I think the problem here is you want a tech lead right away (or as soon as possible).

    It's usually a better idea to accept parity or even be behind for a bit (so long as this does not interefere with your getting the wonders you want/need, which, with prebuilds, shouldn't be that big a deal) in order to build up your civ, and then explode forward, gaining and holding a tech lead later in the game (mid-late medieval onward).

    If you are doing your own research at more than 10%, then beelining for libraries and building them all over makes sense. If you are doing 40-turn research, frankly, I would suggests getting marketplaces down first.

    I will often build the GL while doing 40-turn research and building courthouses, markets, aqueducts, harbors, etc (everything BUT libraries). Then, with a huge wad of cash and tech parity, I suddenly build a TON of libraries and crank up my research. Often this results in me blasting ahead in tech, particularly if I've been a good little boy and not used my GA yet...

    -Arrian

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  • Harovan
    replied
    Yes, that's the plan. You are commercial. You make more money than they. Multiply it. Play out your strength. A lag in the ancient age means nothing.

    EDIT: By the way, if you want to avoid the lag, just get the GL. The AIs often neglect on Literature, use that fact.

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  • Yahweh Sabaoth
    replied
    So, in other words, you would accept a slight lag in the early game, not agressing (other than REXing agressively), researching Literature first - one city building the Great Library asap - then going for Currency, and building libraries and marketplaces aplenty?

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  • Harovan
    replied
    Map Making if you're isolated, Literature otherwise.

    And expansionists cease to have an advantage as soon as they hit the medieval age. Wait till they whored around the techs, then buy them cheap. Heaven forbid you buy a tech which only one civ has, unless you see the opportunity do sell it with profit. You will end even in tech, but with Libraries and Marketplaces built your research capability will be vastly better than of those, who used to "find" the techs. This is the time to launch your own research.

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  • Yahweh Sabaoth
    replied
    RNC is fine with me, but the real issue I'm having is being outclassed my by neighboring civs in terms of both REXing and research. I'm able to keep up with both, but up against the other Asians and then either the Europeans or Mid-Easterners, I cannot seem to attain a lead... it's nice to have the cheap libraries, but that doesn't seem to stop the expanionists in particular from keeping on par or ahead of me in terms of tech.

    Admittedly, I haven't seemed to get very good land as the Koreans so far... the RNG seems to persistently give the Koreans shoddy land, or rich land in a position of isolation.

    So, what should I go for first: MapMaking or Literature?

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  • Master Zen
    replied
    Korea is all about its traits.

    Beeline for Literature so you can get those cheap Libraries which not only work wonders for your science output but also add culture. Libraries are cheaper than Temples with scientific civs. If you can also net the Colossus, that would be an even greater bonus.

    Have you ever tried RCP? (Ring City Placement). It is devastatingly effective with commercial civs. Try taking advantage of it especially if you have enough land that you can perhaps risk some not as good city sites in order to make your other good cities incredibly productive.

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