Roleplayers - correspondence & foreign affairs

[vondrack]

OK, guys, you want to read this.

RPers are apparently less than happy about how things develop... I was first contacted by E_T and later by Togas himself. Here, read the logs (but keep the info for yourself, I do not think Togas would be too happy to know I posted the log here ):

Session Start: Sun Mar 09 18:44:58 2003
Session Ident: E_T
Session Ident: E_T (E_T@216-53-175-097.ppp.mpinet.net)
E_T: We hear that you now have contact with GoW
vondrack: yes, that's correct
vondrack: technically, they have a contact with us
vondrack: our galley ended up close to their cultural borders
vondrack: but we were unable to see any units
vondrack: so we did not get a contact
vondrack: but they were able to spot the galley on their turn
E_T: how soon do you think that you'll have the galley down close to that one spot on the minimap??
vondrack: not really sure... we hope to get a couple of contacts through GoW, so we will probably use the galley to finish exploring that mid-way island (it's of high strategic importance, I believe)
vondrack: I would say 10-15 turns
E_T: we are working to try to get the contact through GoW, but really don't have much to offer them at this point in time
E_T: that's why I'm asking
vondrack: I see
vondrack: well, 10-15 turns is the best we'd be able to do - and that assumes we do not have to recall the galley to transport any units to that island (if, for example, a resource tile is discovered there)
E_T: have you traded any maps with GoW yet?
vondrack: nope and we do not plan to
E_T: if we get contact with you, through GoW, will you be open to a map trade with us? or any other trades?
vondrack: Other trades, yes - as long as there is anything to trade, of course. But map trade, I am afraid, not.
vondrack: There was a poll in Legoland and it ended up binding our representatives to reject any map trades
E_T: no problem, I can see that you want to claim as much land as you can first
vondrack: GoW asked for our world map, but we told them exactly the same
vondrack: yes, that's correct
vondrack: we started in a less than optimal location
vondrack: and our only hope for a brighter future is to claim some better land south of that vast jungle
vondrack: keeping our map to ourselves looks like a way to buy ourselves some time to settle it
vondrack: tbh, we would engage anyone trying to land there
vondrack: immediately
E_T: do you have a tech agreement with GoW yet (i.e. have they gotten you caught up) or is there still techs that your lacking?
vondrack: I do not think I am at liberty to go into details... but my understanding is that we will catch up after trading with GoW
vondrack: considering what Nimitz told me about the techs you have available
vondrack: I believe that we will pretty much catch up
vondrack: barring any very recent developments
E_T: we are trying to look at if it would be cost effective to buy contact with just some of our limited cash (and likely GPT) and then beable to "recoop" most what we had lost from you....
vondrack: well, I am not sure about this... perhaps in a form of some complex deal...
vondrack: we intend to go for The Republic very soon
vondrack: so trading The Republic for, say Currency & Polytheism and the cash you'd spend on getting our contact now might be worth considering
vondrack: but mind you, I am now "thinking aloud"
vondrack: no authorization from my team
vondrack: depends also on how much you would spend on getting our contact from GoW
E_T: We are still working on Poly and it's still several turns away
vondrack: I understand - we will have Republic in something like 20 turns
vondrack: so it would be a future deal
vondrack: but I am fairly sure we will get it before anyone else
E_T: but we will need to have contact with you, so that we can "legally" start setting up a tech deal for teh future
vondrack: "legally"?
E_T: well, we don't have contact, so to say... but we have been sending "smoke siginals"....
vondrack: I think there was no no-comm-before-ingame-contact rule set for this game
vondrack: so I do not think it is necessary to have an ingame contact
vondrack: before arranging a deal like that
E_T: but when we do get actual contact, then we can really start doing things like summits and real future planning
E_T: yes, but still, it make planning thing rather difficult without having that all important contact....
vondrack: well, what I had in mind was that you'd now buy the contact and we would then agree to exchange Rep for Poly+Curr+recuperation once such a deal is possible
vondrack: that should be okay, no?
vondrack: Rep+recuperation for Curr+Poly
vondrack: sorry
vondrack: But we can postpone the actual ingame contact, if you do not feel like buying it from GoW now. We will get to that crossing point sooner or later.
E_T: that will have to wait for teh diplomatic people and Togas. I'm just trying to get info, so that we can decide what is the better thing to do for the next several turns from now
vondrack: Most probably, it would be in time to make the Rep for Curr+Poly deal anyway... and we would save the recuperation
vondrack: ok, no problem
E_T: I'll let them know, chat at you later
vondrack: ok, ttyl

That was 5:44-6:30pm GMT.

[vondrack]

That was just a prelude though... this one is where I had most fun. Watch Togas lose his temper (RPers should really not let him negotiate directly ):

Session Start: Sun Mar 09 19:31:29 2003
Session Ident: Togas
Session Ident: Togas (~tom_ogas@adsl-64-167-40-212.dsl.frsn01.pacbell.net)
Togas: are you free to chat right now?
Togas: Let me put this bluntly:
Togas: it is more important to you to scout another island out that to come visit us
Togas: we aren't going to buy contact with you from GoW, since your nation won't make any trade deals with us
Togas: we're very frustrated right now because we had counted on having a close friendship with Legoland, but your team prefers to deal through GoW than to come meet us
vondrack: sorry, been having my supper
vondrack: Let me put this bluntly:
vondrack: if you wish to have a close friendship with Legoland, you will have to understand that we have our own concerns
vondrack: sometimes getting a full picture of a strategically important island may be more important than getting a contact with another nation few turns earlier
Togas: we've done everything we can, and bent over backwards, I told Nimitz all of our technology, offering it up to you
vondrack: I have explained to E_T that we would be down there in time to make the deal even if you do not buy the contact
vondrack: and what?
Togas: there's nothing more we can do to show you that we're not the enemy
vondrack: sure, we DO know you are not enemy
vondrack: GoW offered a deal you simply do not turn down
vondrack: that's it
vondrack: all of our members are happy about it
Togas: that's fine, I understand that
vondrack: so tell me why should we delay things just to make another deal with you?
vondrack: we do not demand
Togas: you shouldn't
vondrack: that you buy the contact
vondrack: our galley sailed from such a point
vondrack: that we made our first contact with another team
Togas: what I'm trying to tell you is that it's a lot of little things, the reluctance, the distrust, and it adds up
vondrack: reluctance?
vondrack: distrust?
Togas: Yes
vondrack: what are you talking about?
Togas: First, we were told that you wouldnt' visit us for something like 30 turns
vondrack: that was correct at the time I was telling you
Togas: then we are told that GoW will have mapmaking by GoW
Togas: Then we are told by Nimitz that you will soon have contact with our continent
vondrack: we dramatically rehashed our plans after finding out about the crossing point in the south
vondrack: GoW will have Map Making by GoW??
Togas: and we figure out that somehow, you guys changed your mind
Togas: We assume GoW got MM from you, as they just got it and offered it to us last turn
vondrack: ah, yes, that's the distrust you've been mentioning?
vondrack: GoW researched MM on their own
vondrack: they did not get it form us
vondrack: from
Togas: what bothers me most is that it appeared to us that you changed your plans because you wanted to meet GoW, and that meeting us was a very low priority
Togas: furthermore, Nimitz told us that he couldn't make any deals until we were about to meet.
vondrack: Jesus!
vondrack: I said that our galley
vondrack: was sailing out from a point
vondrack: on the other side of our landmass
vondrack: we changed our plans significantly
vondrack: to get to you earlier
vondrack: and found out an earlier crossing to GoW
vondrack: actually, they met us right after we crossed the ocean and anchored by the Bob coast
vondrack: I told Nimitz to carve no deals until there is a certainty the deals can be fulfilled
Togas: and nimitz was told not to reveal to us what technology you had.
vondrack: I have no desire to get caught into complex webs of multi-sided deals we would not be able to guarantee
vondrack: that's correct, I told him to tell nobody
vondrack: he's our new FAM
vondrack: and that direction was general
Togas: right, and you wonder why we think you don't trust us
vondrack: not specifically tailor for RPers
vondrack: tailored
vondrack: oh, are you serious? shall I feel equally offended by the fact that Arnelos mentioned not being allowed to reveal your current reserach project many turns ago?
Togas: You shouldn't.
vondrack: that's right
vondrack: and now you should not feel offended
Togas: because I told Nimitz what we were researching
vondrack: afterwards
Togas: and he wouldn't tell me what you were researching
Togas: Arnelos isn't the ambassador, the FAM, or the leader of this team.
Togas: Nimitz is your FAM
Togas: and should be authorized to negotiate
vondrack: and he was not
Togas: so who is? He's the only one who ever talks to us
vondrack: that's correct - and every time he IS authorized to reveal information or make deals, he says so
vondrack: sometimes he is not
* Togas sighs
vondrack: look, this is getting nowhere
vondrack: there was a deal I proposed to E_T
vondrack: it did not include any need to buy our contact
vondrack: as it would not be applicable
Togas: Let's bring this back to important issue, then:
vondrack: before 20+ turns
vondrack: and that should be enough to get to you even with the important detour we need to make
Togas: Our team and your team have a research pact.
vondrack: correct
Togas: you agree?
vondrack: yep
Togas: do you have any intention on abiding by that pact?
vondrack: We do intend to cooperate with you on research projects, preferrably researching along different branches. Is that what you mean?
Togas: if you want to cooperate on research, your nation and mine need to actually be open on what we are researching
Togas: this needs to be done
Togas: contact will happen when it happens, either we wait for your ship or we pay GoW the huge sums they're demanding
vondrack: no problem - the tech Nimitz was not allowed to speak about was not our research project, but a tech we got from a late hut
vondrack: currently, we are researching Literature
Togas: but I am willing to open up and reveal and SHARE with you what we are researching, I need a commitment that you will be open with us
vondrack: and we plan to start researching Republic very soon
vondrack: is that open enough?
Togas: We have literature, we have Code of Laws
vondrack: ok
Togas: Gow also has them, as we traded the knowedege to them.
vondrack: I know
Togas: We are working on Polytheism, and will do Monarchy next
vondrack: that's great
Togas: I need to warn you that Gathering Storm is working on Republic too
vondrack: we intend to follow different paths
vondrack: well, there is only so many techs one can research
vondrack: with the ancient era getting to its end
vondrack: it's natural that we will be doing something someone else does
vondrack: I hope we will be quicker
vondrack: just btw, how much GoW asks for the contact?
Togas: I agree, I don't mind if you compete with GS, I just hope that you guys will beat them
vondrack: I hope we will
vondrack: though I have no idea about their research output
Togas: the way this game has been played, the first nation with a tech trades it like mad
Togas: I know you guys have been independent until now, we've been in the market a long time, the market moves fast
vondrack: hopefully, we will learn the game
Togas: I regret if I've made you angry, but what we important to me to get across to you is that we WANT a relationship with your team
Togas: if it wasn't important to us, we wouldn't be offended or frustrated or angry, you see.
vondrack: ok
vondrack: what I
vondrack: want to get across to you
Togas: from the beginning of this game we set out to meet and establish a relationship with you
vondrack: is that Lego has its own strategy
vondrack: and that strategy is not SOLELY centered around cooperating with you
Togas: one that doesn't include a friendship with us
vondrack: we try to give a high priority to things that are related to you
Togas: Not very high priority, it seems
vondrack: but at times, there are more urgent affairs to attend to first
vondrack: I am not going into any more verbal ping-pong, Togas. I believe I expressed myself clearly.
Togas: We place a higher value on a "good ally" than you do
Togas: I'm not trying to put you on the defensive or trying to convince you of something
vondrack: I do not have any feelings like that
Togas: You don't have to explain yourself, you just need to believe me -- we want to work WITH you, not against you, and we want to establish a strong alliance with another nation who thinks like we do.
Togas: if you look at who our neighbors are, you begin to understand
vondrack: I do
Togas: You're on an island, and can afford to be more isolationist, I understand that.
Togas: but don't think this is some machivellian ploy, because it isn't.
vondrack: never said I would think so
Togas: I hope that in the future that when your people are in need of a friend and an ally that you can turn to us.
Togas: and I hope that one day we will be able to count on your support of our nation.
vondrack: and we certainly hope that you will feel the same about us
vondrack: yes
vondrack: just keep in mind one thing
vondrack: in all honesty
vondrack: there will be only one team to win this game
vondrack: and even between allies
vondrack: each of them
vondrack: will try to win
vondrack: he will not backstab
vondrack: he will not lie
vondrack: he will help
vondrack: but he will still try to win
vondrack: unfortunately
Togas: I hear ya, but I don't think you hear me.
vondrack: winning in Civ3 means defeating ALL others
vondrack: I can hear you very well
Togas: right now we're not at that place where we can trust each other.
vondrack: I am just telling you that when we hold a piece of information
vondrack: it does not mean we are an enemy
Togas: but it doesn't mean you're a friend either
Togas: If you want friendship and cooperation, we are offering both to you.
Togas: When you're willing to offer it back, you need to let us know.
vondrack: good, let's start with real things like real deals and real cooperation
* vondrack sighs.
vondrack: we really
Togas: it starts slowly, of course. That's fine.
vondrack: seems to not be hearing each other
vondrack: yes, slowly
vondrack: that's the term
vondrack: trust must be earned
vondrack: for both sides
vondrack: us and yourself
vondrack: if you think things we did or did not do
vondrack: were not nice of us
Togas: right, and I'm telling you that we have made the first step, and we need you to show a little trust in us back
vondrack: then hopefully, once we get real projects done successfully
vondrack: the picture will change
vondrack: Good. So, what exactly would you like to know now?
vondrack: I guess we talked about the research
vondrack: there was an idea I had
Togas: I don't want to know anything right now, what I want is us to have the same motives.
vondrack: about the Republic
vondrack: Polytheism and Currency
vondrack: did E_T tell you?
Togas: He hasn't yet. I'm going to chat with him later today. He's still online
vondrack: well, that explains a lot, I think
vondrack: if you talked to him earlier
vondrack: much of what has been said recently
vondrack: would not be necessary, I think
Togas: Well, much of what I said recently was from what he posted to our forum
vondrack: and that was?
Togas: he posted a log of a conversation about your meeting GoW, contacts, etc.
vondrack: oh, then you know
vondrack: I offered a real deal
vondrack: not tied to acquiring any contact
Togas: I'll review it after this conversation. I'm sure it's a good deal.
Togas: what important to me, though, is the big picture
vondrack: basically, I offered trading Republic for (Polytheism+Currency)
vondrack: same costs
Togas: Sounds good.
Togas:
vondrack: plus, if you want to trade our contact with GoW
vondrack: we might recuperate your spendings
vondrack: if they are reasonable
vondrack: as part of the deal
Togas: That's an excellent proposal, one that I would be happy to agree with.
vondrack: I just did not want to recoup any contact-related spendings
vondrack: if there was no actual need
vondrack: to have that contact
Togas: Just to let you know, I don't usually do the deal making myself, I normally let my ambassadors handle it
vondrack: that was what E_T initially asked about or for
Togas: I step in on the big projects, and I set policy, approve things, etc.
vondrack: yeah, I understand
Togas: what's important to me in this case is the relationship between your team and mine
vondrack: I feel honored to be a big project...
Togas:
vondrack: just btw, how much GoW asks for the contact?
Togas: that's right, you asked that ... hold on, I'm going to ask in channel
Togas: my team had a chat with GOW at 6am my time
vondrack: oh, I am usually already sleeping by that time...
Togas: I woke up and read parts of the summary, and got a quick update by the guys who were online
Togas: .... ET might be idle. The other 2 guys in chat don't know :/
Togas: I'll PM you when I find out from them.
vondrack: no problem... I am just curious
vondrack: I expected them to trade our contact around
vondrack: just curious how much they think it is worth
Togas: We expect that they will too, GoW is extremely opportunistic
Togas: GoW is mostly responsible for the tech market being so deflated
vondrack: I see
Togas: they trade techs for far below their value, you probably got a very good deal from them, they seem to be more motivated by undercutting their rivals than actually making a profit
vondrack: yeah, much like that
vondrack: the deal was very good
Togas: you guys will be modernized in no time at all.
vondrack: that's correct
Togas: for example, they gave us contact with Vox and GS for 40g, mostly so that we wouldn't buy it from Lux
vondrack: hmmm, that's damn cheap
Togas: if GoW thinks that we will get contact with Legoland "anyhow" by your boat coming down the shore, they might be willing to part with contact for pennies on the dollar
vondrack: our contact should be much cheaper then
vondrack: yes
Togas: but if they know that we can't get it from anyone else.... things change
vondrack: and if that's the case, Lego will be happy to throw in those few bucks into the tech deal I mentioned
Togas: I'll get back to you as soon as one of my people gives me a #
vondrack: the fact that GoW was actually "found" by our galley
vondrack: and not the other way round
vondrack: should help make better deals
vondrack: ok, ttyl
Togas: talk to you later. Sorry for causing such a fuss earlier
Togas: Don't hold it against my team .... Our relationship with Legoland is a true priority to us, you have "most favored nation" trade status with us.
vondrack: ok, I am glad we've found a common language
Togas: agreed. I can be very passionate about things which are important to me.
Togas: and I hope to not rub you the wrong way.
vondrack: ok, no worries
Togas: good
vondrack:
vondrack: cya

[Nimitz]

Well I got a message from Thud the RPers now have contact with us they bought it from GoW and are ready to start dealing.

[Sharpe]

How much did RP end up paying?

We agreed to compensate them if it was an unreasonable amount - reportedly GoW was asking Vox for 45 gold for example. So we need to know so that we can set aside an amount by then.

We would pay it to them when we traded Republic for Currency (Commerce) + Polytheism.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
How much did RP end up paying?

We agreed to compensate them if it was an unreasonable amount - reportedly GoW was asking Vox for 45 gold for example. So we need to know so that we can set aside an amount by then.

We would pay it to them when we traded Republic for Currency (Commerce) + Polytheism.

If GhengisFarb tells truth, RPers paid 40 gold for our contact. I believe it would be a nice gesture of good will from our side to recuperate RPers' expenses as part of that future tech deal (Republic+40g for Currency+Polytheism... Togas indicated he would be happy with a deal like that).

A side-note: even though the deal was unofficially proposed to RPers and I believe it would be beneficial for both teams to make it, it was NOT officially accepted by either side yet and remains just a proposal... I would thus like to hear from everybody if it is acceptable.

Shall we make a deal on trading The Republic and 40 gold for Polytheism and Currency with RPers?

[vondrack]

Vondrack,

We have successfully negotiated with Glory of War to aquire contact with your nation for 40 gold. We feel that contact with your nation is worth paying this amount (we probably would have paid more, and are glad we didn't have to!), and we are happy to have arranged it.

We would like to ask that Legoland help pay for 1/2 of the cost of contact you. Please let us know as soon as you can.

--Togas

This just came from Togas... I believe that what they ask for is pretty reasonable and I would be okay to pay them 20 gold immediately, even if making it part of that more complex deal anyway.

I guess we can ask the barbarians at the southern tip of Legos Minor to help with the funding...

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by vondrack

This just came from Togas... I believe that what they ask for is pretty reasonable and I would be okay to pay them 20 gold immediately, even if making it part of that more complex deal anyway.

I guess we can ask the barbarians at the southern tip of Legos Minor to help with the funding...

I too, think we should kindly ask the barbarians to help us in returning those money immediately to the RPs.

As for the treaty, the Republic for Currency and Polytheism plus some money (now we are going to pay half in advance, only 20 I guess) sounds good. But let's wait to see if we can be the first team to research it .

[redstar1]

We could also mention that Vox and GS are probably reluctant to buy from Gow and that RP could sell for 20 each

[ZargonX]

Well, if 20 is all they're asking for, no arguments here. And Redstar1 brings up a good point, RP may be able to cash in on selling contact to the other non-Bobians.

[lmtoops]

I see much has happened this weekend. I am still trying to sort it all out. I still get confused on who is who and where they are on the map. I'll try to get up to speed later today.

In any case, it seems that everyone is in agreement, so far. I will not attempt to hold up and deals.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by lmtoops
I see much has happened this weekend. I am still trying to sort it all out. I still get confused on who is who and where they are on the map. I'll try to get up to speed later today.

In any case, it seems that everyone is in agreement, so far. I will not attempt to hold up and deals.

Just to help you out a bit:



We are to the left, the contact with GoW has been done in the North. The white dot to the right of the contact spot is GoW's capital. South of GoW is ND, further South is RPers (cyan). The "red team" (Luxes) is no longer in the game, their territory now belonging to ND. Far in the right, Voxes in the North and GS in the South.

The fine catch-up deal was done with GoW. We currently negotiate another deal (Republic for Currency & Polytheism) with RPers and consider offering a deal to GS ("joint venture" research of the Republic).

Hope this helps.

[ZargonX]

An interesting piece of information over in the ISDG forum: apparently the RPers are also hard pressed for iron. E_T didn't elaborate, but he gave the impression that they probably either have iron at a very remote city, or perhaps none at all hooked up yet. WIth GoW also short on iron, it looks like we may have a very solid resource base to deal with other teams (either economically or militarily...)

[Tiberius]

This would be a good argument to give higher priorities for settling near/on resources (iron and horses), even if those cities are going to be very corrupted and useless for a while.

[lmtoops]

Tiberius,

Thank you for the summary of events. What you described is what I thought had happened, but I wasn't sure if I missed anything.

We are in a bit of a "power" position. Everyone is eager to meet us before the other civs. I suppose whoring the contact and the techs give them a bit more money. In any case, we must take the best deal.

No offense intended towards the other civs, but GoW was closer than the others and had a galley in the area.

[Kloreep]

If the RPers want us to gift 20 gold, let's by all means do so.

And the two proposed deals (Republic for Currency and Poly, joint Republic research with GS) both look good.