Vox Controli - correspondence & foreign affairs

[Kloreep]

I disagree on the naval screen. I think they should form their own part of the naval screen (if they can afford it; if not, we can go ahead and do it for them). Because their turn comes right before ours, a naval screen of ours would give them one less turn's warning of possible invasion & preparation for such.

I agree on the other points; have Vox focus on research instead of land units, and railroad their portion of the continent to us ASAP so that we can protect them with our own units. Heck, we have enough units we could probably prevent any landings on Legos Minor if the proper RRs were in place.

[vondrack]

An idea has crossed my mind today... I was pondering about what to do about the Voxian research once they finish Democracy. The only solution I was able to think of previously was halting their research & stockpiling gold until we finish Magnetism & ToG... and then continuing with an industrial tech.

But here is a new idea: what about asking them to do Military Tradition for us? GoW does not seem to be very eager to trade it to us, as they did not get back to me after the chat last week. I will ask MZ again today, if he is there... but if GoW keeps stalling (and that would only confirm they are aligning themselves against us), I think we could play their game, seemingly doing nothing, but having Voxes research the tech for us while we zoom ahead towards the end of the era. We would save the 4 turns needed to research MT - that's not negligible. Someone is ahead of us tech-wise (since when we were starting Physics, 2 other teams already knew it) and we have some catching up to do.

There is a risk involved, but it's not all that high, as if, at any time, something went terribly wrong, we could do MT on our own in mere 4 turns (we can research 4t techs easily at 40%-50% science now, making 200-300gpt at the same time). 4 turns would be hardly enough to allow invaders to sail over, land, and overrun our defenses.

OTOH, if things go as they are supposed, we would do Magentism & ToG, leaving medieval times, while Voxes use their fine research engine to do MT for us in ~10t (that's what I would assume). Moreover, we could keep building 2t knights as long as we'd wish, since Voxes would deliver MT exactly when we'd ask for it (which I would never risk with GoW).

How does this sound to you?

[vondrack]

BTW, Kloreep has a good point about the naval screen - Voxes need to have their own screen in "their" part of the ocean - otherwise they get the warning essentially one turn later.

I'd also agree we should try to make them build only or mostly defenders (but a good number of them) and arty, relying on our attackers to help them against invasions. However, if they do not feel 100% happy about this, I would not insist very strictly. We would only show distrust - with no good reason. IF they ever decide to backstab us (not that I would ever believe that), they will do it anyway - we have no means to check what kind of units they have, unless we plant a spy with them. And that's not going to happen any time soon.

So, here is a quick summary of what I would suggest we ask from Voxes:

1) extend our own naval screens with their vessels so that it covers the oceans completely both in the West & in the East
2) focus on building their own defenders and artillery, leaving attackers to us
3) after finishing Democracy, do the Military Tradition for us
4) keep building their infra with an emphasis on research

Objections? Any other ideas?

[Tiberius]

Any other ideas?

Yes Help them with money to do an 8 turn Military Tradition research. (to finance their deficit)

[ZargonX]

We really need to press GoW on this issue. If they outright refuse this trade, we have no choice other than to assume they are aligning against us. If that's the case, definately work on the relation with ND, and I might say even go so far as to contact GS and try to open relations with them again.

[vondrack]

As for "pressing" GoW... I will bug MZ today evening again. If he keeps evading or offers poor terms, it will be a message clear enough. Should that happen, we need to figure out who they are aligned with now - as I am sure they would not go against us on their own (my bet would be GS).

[vondrack]

I quickly emailed Vox last night, after suddenly realizing we did not really need any tech except Steam Power:

Hi, Jared!
Hi, Bruce!

Just a quick note - unless you get Steam Power, do NOT send your free industrial tech to us. We do not really need rifles yet (actually, we strongly prefer doing a couple more muskets first, as we have several
30S cities quite fit for 2t muskets, while we have no 40S city able to build 2t rifles), nor we need Medicine. No need to make it any cheaper for those that may (be) research(ing) them. GoW is doing Medicine ATM,
that we know for sure - let them spend as much as possible.

The only exception would be Steam Power - that is a crucial tech for us, which we need urgently. Besides, GS already have it, and GoW will get it from GS (in exchange for Medicine, if I deciphered it correctly
from my chit-chat with Master Zen), so no big deal making it cheaper.

If it is Steam Power, send it immediately, please.

My personal suggestions:

If you get Nationalism, go for Communism (Police Stations).
If you get Medicine, go for Sanitation (Hospitals).
If you get Steam Power, go for Nationalism (Rifles).

This should make it very likely that you are first to research whatever you decide to research.

Also - think hard about if you can meaningfully use some gold. We might be able to help, if it really helps things. Our Golden Ages truly are "golden"...

Cheers,
Radek aka vondrack

And here is Beta's two-part answer:

Hi Radek. Understood regarding the free tech and what you would like to see happen.

As to gold - funding the research deficit would be the first use. The second would be upgrades on our units - catapults - now in the production stream - to cannon - and the existing spears and pikes to rifles. This follows your homeland defence suggestion. The third would be rushing improvements - most likely universities.

At last count - Rhoth calculated we were at 184 beakers at 100% science, with a 45gpt loss. There are more universities and population coming on stream - so this should get better. Although its not bad for a little rock
no bigger than Newfoundland, which is affectionately known as The Rock here in Canada. Btw - fabulous province - and the first acknowledged site of Europeans landing in North America - the viking settlement at L'Anse aux Meadows - a UNESCO heritage site. But I DO digress.

Back to Vox - my home near and dear. Rhoth can probably provide more precise timing regarding research - I have been a bit busy this week - and have not been attentive as I should have been.

Trust all is well. Cheers ...Bruce.

Hi Radek - for specifics here is Rhoth's post in our forum in response to your note below. It gives better details on the cash we would need and when:

Hopefully we will receive steam power, but if we do get medicine or nationalism then we won't send it until they are ready for it.

Regarding the gold, if they are still willing to finance our deficit then we will need roughly 50 gold per turn from them, but that will go up to around 60 in the next few turns. That will allow us to run 100% research, otherwise we have to keep it dialed down a bit.

Beta can you talk with Vondrack and see if they are still willing to send us 50+ gold per turn? Then we can set that up so they can give it to us starting next turn and we can go 100% research. If they can't send that much then we can of course dial our research down a to 90% or 80% so that we don't have a big deficit.

Let us know. Take care my friend. ...Bruce.

(aka Beta of Vox.)

Now, I'd like to hear your opinions... the fact is we are generating so much cash that we cannot really use all of it in a reasonable way (btw, 500g should be coming in from ND this turn). Even after we boost our research, we will still generate a healthy surplus. We can certainly keep it in our coffers, but that's as if you kept your real world savings under your pillow - you usually prefer doing some investments.

Now, my thoughts/comments:

With the techs Voxes will be able to research costing ~2400 beakers, the research time difference would be like 5 turns, for the cost of 600-800g, as 2400B/184bpt=13t, 2400B/139bpt=18t, and 13t*(50-60)gpt=650-780g. Honestly, I do not see this as a no brainer... it would most probably depend on what kind of tech Voxes would research. I would be ready to fund a fast Sanitation research (as we will soon be ready to grow our best cities past pop 12, which we need the hospitals for), but would see no need to hurry with Nationalism or Communism.

As for upgrades... I would say these can wait for now. I'd tell Voxes to keep their upgradable units within the reach of barracked cities, so that if something goes wrong, they can upgrade immediately, and keep the necessary funds ourselves, but not spend them yet. I would like us to have even higher gold reserves to use them for Voxian upgrades.

As for the last possibility mentioned (rushes)... I am going to ask for details. Rushing a university or two, making the city or cities free to, say, build defenders or artillery while generating as many beakers as possible might be a good thing...

[vondrack]

This is what Rhothaerill added to the 720AD save:

You're up. We did indeed receive Nationalism as our free tech. Whenever you want it just say so. We are going full bore toward research of communism and should have it in 16 turns. Our current deficit is 41 gold
after we picked up a few gpt from a trade deal. But that will go up to around a deficit of 50gpt in about 3 turns. If you are able to send us that much each turn then it would certainly be helpful. If not we will dial the
research slider back down.

So, Nationalism it is. In a way, it's good for us - as this pretty much rules out the possibility of others trying to attack our muskets with their cavalry. We can have all or almost all our defenders upgraded to riflemen in 2-3 turns. Cavalry against riflemen backed up by cannons and swarms of counter-cavalry is suicidal...

Now, as for Communism... although the police stations are dandy, we do not really need them - and we shall not really need them at least until we finish building some factories. Surprisingly (for me, at least), none of our cities is really badly corrupt - the courthouses can handle everything just fine. So, I do not see getting Communism ASAP as a must, especially not for 50gpt... do you agree we should tell Voxes to fall back a bit, not to lose cash (=need our funds)?

OTOH, I would probably support gifting them up to 500g they could use to set at least one of their cities up so it would have all the comm/sci improvements and would be free to focus on their defensive military.

I am also going to suggest Vox strike a deal with ND on Nationalism. ND is apparently very keen on acquiring it, to be able to build/upgrade rifles, and I believe the time is ripe for Voxes striking a long-term tech-for-lux deal with ND. I would leave any other deals up to them, just making sure they know we're going the Industrialization route ourselves.

As for Nationalism and us - I suggest we keep building muskets during our GA (we have several cities perfectly suited for this kind of production - at 20/30spt), getting Nationalism and upgrading only after we leave our GA (should coincide with the RR backbone being quickly finished).

Your thoughts?

[Kloreep]

I agree that Communism is not a big priority. Let's build up a small reserve, and possibly fund the development of one of their cities like you suggest, and then fund Communism research if we still have money we can't spend. But 4-turning our choice techs is the most important thing right now.

On Nationalism: Rifles are powerful. I suggest Vox be careful and seal all their deals before trading it to anyone so that no one is left out.

[lmtoops]

Agree, that we are in no hurry for Communism.

As for helping Vox with upgrades, with all our gold, we should share it with our friends. Giving Vox up to 500g (or even a bit more) would not hurt our plans.

Vox can do what they like with Nationalism.

[vondrack]

Vox emailed with the following message:

Hi, guys!

We have briefly discussed the situation in our forum an it seems we would prefer you researching Communism at less than 100%, not losing money. Unlike, say, Medicine or Sanitation, we believe the benefits of Communism (i.e. Police Stations) are not needed that urgently at the moment... we/you better save the 50gpt.

OTOH... we would be happy to assist you with some gold, if you are able to use it reasonably. We were thinking of helping one or two of your cities to finish (through shortrushing) all or most of the comm and sci improvements (library, university, marketplace, bank, perhaps temple & aqueduct, too), so that they'd be able to focus on building arty and/or defenders, while bringing the maximum commercial benefit. Would ~500g help in this regard? Let us know.

We would like to see you arranging the deals for Nationalism with everybody... we know that ND is extremely keen on acquiring the tech because of security reasons (we would suggest a looooong luxury deal with them - like 1 luxury for 40 or, even better, 60 turns; it would cost them "nothing", so they should be happy to take it, while you'd be able to grow your cities a bit more without running into happiness problem). Trading Nationalism with GoW for Medicine would be cool, too - if you can make them add 20t of wines to the deal, even better (it's amazing how much waste one can save by operating cities in WLTKD). And the most important thing would be to trade Nationalism for Electricity with GS - as we would prefer not researching Electricity ourselves, trading for it with GS (most probably for Industrialization).

It would be worth arranging all deals in advance, so that everybody (but us, perhaps) gets the tech at the same time. Rifles are powerful and providing only some teams with them might make them "ponder" about
things...

We will keep building muskets for few more turns and ask you for Nationalism only after our GA end. We plan to quickly finish Steam Power now, continuing with Industrialization and probably Corporation then - and further down that branch, perhaps with a short detour for Replaceable Parts.

One last thing... would you be able to send us your World Map this turn? Just wanna improve our ocean charts a bit. Thanks.

Take care,
Radek aka vondrack
on behalf of Legoland

[ZargonX]

Looks good.

[Spiffor]

Sorry for not being up-to-date (I could barely access the internet last week), but I don't understand why the Voxians aren't running for electricity. With their rocky areas, electricity is absolutely needed if they want to increase their pop.

I don't know if our relationship with the Voxians is trusting enough, but I think we should research electricity for them once Industrialization is complete. For us, electricity is a nice treat (we'll have a population boom in southern Legos), but for them, it is really vital to become significant again.

Unless we fear they betray us at short term, it may be a good idea to give them a heads up with electricity, instead of letting them wait for too long. This will benefit us, at least until the world decides to unite against us.

[vondrack]

I/We believe we will be able to trade Industrialization for Electricity (and gold, probably) with Gathering Storm, Spiffor (they're doing it right now, if not already knowing it - they're going after ToE & Hoover). If they're difficult and refuse to trade, Vox do it as their next tech.

Doing the same tech as GS do/did would unnecessarily delay us in our race through the middle part of the tech tree. GS will get ToE, means two very expensive techs for free for them - we better have something to offer in exchange.

We do not really need Electricity all that much (our pop and economy is vastly superior to the rest of the world anyway) and even if we want Vox to become as strong as possible (they are our closest allies), I do not think researching Electricity because of them is THE reason.

[Spiffor]

Oh OK. Then, please disregard my above post