Vox Controli - correspondence & foreign affairs

[vondrack]

Spotting BetaHound online earlier today, I thought I would talk to him briefly, emphasizing our concerns about the map security issues one more time and urging him to approve our Mono deal... surprisingly, the chat went in a bit different direction from what I anticipated and I learnt a good deal of interesting information... much more than I would have hoped for - here is a slightly edited version (I left out the chit-chat part in the beginning and some parts not related to our common busines... ISDG etc.):

BetaHound: hehe - let me tell you
vondrack: yes?
BetaHound: I got in some heat for the deal
vondrack: oh? really? LoL, me too
BetaHound: many saw it as 50 gold for mono - and thought I had sold too quickly
BetaHound: and ironically - no one thought the map of much value
BetaHound: until it actually showed up
vondrack: LoL
vondrack: and now?
BetaHound: now they seem OK with the deal
BetaHound:
vondrack: great
BetaHound: what can I do to help
vondrack: well, maybe if you can approve the deal?
vondrack: ...or help make it happen in the near future
vondrack: generally it was supported on our side
BetaHound: eeek
BetaHound: mono will happen as soon as as your GS trade happens
BetaHound: and I will get the deal back to you today
vondrack: yeah, that's great
vondrack: we will have 100 gold ready for you on the next turn, one turn earlier
BetaHound: sorry - it was paperwork - and we have been really busy with Bob
vondrack: I understand, no problem
BetaHound: great – thanks
BetaHound: btw - when is your republic-curr-const trade suppose to happen
vondrack: keep this to yourself, please
BetaHound: lips are sealed
vondrack: no later than on turn 84... but it is not signed yet
BetaHound: what's the hassle with the price - GS want more?
vondrack: well, ATM, it looks like they are thinking of something like Rep+40g for Curr+Constr
BetaHound:
vondrack: once we are able to get 50gold or more, we strike it
vondrack: since it will effectively mean, we get what we wanted from the very beginning
vondrack: but GS will not know and we would prefer leaving it that way
vondrack: let they think how smart they were ripping us off, no problem
BetaHound: they are fun to deal with aren't they?
vondrack: yeah... )
BetaHound: that air of superiority... you should be their neighbors - a lesson in humility
vondrack: LoL
vondrack: are they in a position to do any harm to you?
BetaHound: nah - fortress East Estonia
vondrack:
BetaHound: but - we keep an eye open just in case
BetaHound: but I think they understand it would be costly
vondrack: a question... if you do not answer, I will know what it means
BetaHound: ok
vondrack: do you have an agreement on sharing all techs with GS?
BetaHound: had
vondrack: oh? it has expired?
BetaHound: Since their research has surpassed ours - and I think they have tired of us somewhat - it has gone more to a trade for trade relationship.
vondrack: hmmm... that's interesting
BetaHound: In the beginning - we had a huge advantage over them.
vondrack: certainly opens up more manoeuvring room for both of you now
BetaHound: We had met Lux and GoW and had BW and IW. We could have really gotten them behind early.
BetaHound: We let them off the hook - started trading with them - and then opened the floodgates by providing contact with the others.
vondrack: hmmm... another story of... sort of "ungratefulness"
vondrack: many teams were/are wary of dealing with your teams, as they view yourselves and them as one
vondrack: it may improve once you detach from each other...
BetaHound: hmmm- that is interesting
vondrack: yes, it is pretty much what Bobians believe, especially GoW
BetaHound: hmm- thanks for the insight
vondrack: you are welcome
BetaHound: OK - well I will get the deal back to you today. Thanks again for the map. It is appreciated
vondrack: ok, thanks a lot
BetaHound: Let your people know we feel at our end that we are cementing relationships.
BetaHound: That is clear from our folks. Your team has a great reputation
vondrack: has it?
BetaHound: yes
vondrack: that's surprising... we haven't done too much yet
vondrack: and sometimes we feel like everybody thinks we are dumb
vondrack: trying such foolish tricks... dunno
BetaHound: Anyway - cheers. Work beckons
vondrack: ok, take care

[redstar1]

Hmmm, VERY interesting indeed.... if only they had republic

[ZargonX]

As I have stated, I have less a problem with the actual trade of the map, and more with the breakdown of our system.

-The reason I did not include the president on the list of deal makers was that, at the moment, you are our primary dealer, Vondrack. That is all well and good, but what happens when you are out of office? The other teams will be used to dealing with you, and have a hard time adjusting to a new person. By keeping it with ambassadors, we don't have to worry about that too much. An ambassador is supposed to build a close relationship with a team, so no matter how the government around them changes, they still have that link.
-As for delays in deals; we are a small team, and I don't think I've seen any issues that have taken us more than 24 hours to resolve. We don't even need to hold polls most of the time, we can just discuss it until we reach an agreement. Therefore, I don't think it is that unreasonable to take a little time to address everyone's concerns. All of the points raised above by Tibi and redstar are valid, but they are all after the fact. If this discussion had gone on before you sent the map, we probably wouldn't be having this debate.

So, that's my view. The trade itself is a very good one for us, and yes, helping Vox is in our interestes. We can deal with any reprecussions diplomatically in the future. The restructuring of our diplomatic machine is what I see as the major issue.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by ZargonX
-The reason I did not include the president on the list of deal makers was that, at the moment, you are our primary dealer, Vondrack. That is all well and good, but what happens when you are out of office? The other teams will be used to dealing with you, and have a hard time adjusting to a new person. By keeping it with ambassadors, we don't have to worry about that too much. An ambassador is supposed to build a close relationship with a team, so no matter how the government around them changes, they still have that link.

Well, yes... I understand the concern - OTOH, the fact is that different people are available online at different times and for different amounts of time. It is somehow logical that the greatest deal of "live" negotiations fall upon those that are most often online.

That said, you probably have no idea how much I'd love to have all interteam communications handled through ambassadors only (and I truly believe once we get out of this ancient-to-medieval combined with leaving-the-isolation mess, we WILL be able to handle diplomacy mostly this way). Believe me, my life in the last couple of days (maybe weeks) is a weird mixture of business, DG stuff, and lack of sleep... I just long for times when it will be less hectic.

Originally posted by ZargonX
-As for delays in deals; we are a small team, and I don't think I've seen any issues that have taken us more than 24 hours to resolve. We don't even need to hold polls most of the time, we can just discuss it until we reach an agreement. Therefore, I don't think it is that unreasonable to take a little time to address everyone's concerns. All of the points raised above by Tibi and redstar are valid, but they are all after the fact. If this discussion had gone on before you sent the map, we probably wouldn't be having this debate.

As I have already pointed out before... the Vox Mono deal (chatlog) was posted first for review and comments by the team and then there were almost 24 hrs before I decided I had input enough to go ahead with the deal, sending the map to Voxes. Yes, I considered the matter very urgent and I acted as soon as I felt there was input enough. I am sorry that this decision of mine has been perceived as rushed and exceeding my authorization.

On a rather humorous note... and this is not meant as an argument supporting the decision of mine that is now questioned so much, as I had no idea about it when sending the map off... have you noticed that until the map was sent, our deal with Voxes - however generous and beneficial it looked to us - was certainly less than guaranteed? Sometimes it is quite funny how parties involved in the deal feel about the value of items included...

[Nimitz]

I have one major point, I want us to keep a great reputation it will serve us well in this game team want someone they can trust if they can trust you they will hopefully be less likely to attack you and more friendly so please keep things on the up and up in diplomicy. Oh, vondrack I'll get on that list first thing in the morning.

[vondrack]

This has come from BetaHound:

Vox-Lego Monotheism Trade Agreement of 1050BC

Hereby, Vox Controli and Legoland agree upon that:

1) Legoland will provide Vox Controli with 100 gold at its earliest convenience (no later than on its Turn 81, so that Vox Controli receives the money on its Turn 82).

2) Vox Controli will provide Legoland with the "free" technology granted to scientific civilizations upon entering the medieval ages (most probably Monotheism in this case) on the very turn Vox Controli receives it.

3) Legoland will provide Vox Controli with 100 more gold immediately upon the receipt of the "free medieval" technology mentioned in the previous paragraph.

4) Vox Controli will repay 150 gold back to Legoland within 30 turns of receiving the second part of the "loan" (see the previous paragraph).

5) Both teams agree that it may be possible to negotiate using a technology to repay part or whole of the 150 gold "loan".

6) Legoland will not be allowed to resell/trade/gift the technology received from Vox Controli, unless expressly authorized by an amendment to this trade agreement.

7) Both teams agree to disclose no details of this trade agreement to a third party.

Signed BetaHound, Voice of Foreign Affairs, and Director of the Voxian Economic Council, Vox Controli. 1050BC

After receiving the signed treaty, signing it and sending it back, I played our turn, sending Voxes the first part (100 gold) of money as per this treaty.

Monotheism secured.

[Tiberius]

Shouldn't we ask the Voxes if they need another loan? We have plenty of money and no use of it for more than 20 turns (we will have to upgrade our horses and to rush some building in Republic, but both these will happen well in the future).
We could offer 150-200 gold and ask for 200-250 gold in 20 turns (max. 30). That's 4-5 immortals They must do something now with them , or face elimination soon after. So anyway, our money is idling, I thought we must invest it somehow.

[vondrack]

I have mentioned this possibility to BetaHound recently. He said he would keep it mind and ask in case they would be able to use the money.

[vondrack]

OK, big news today. Nimitz talked to BetaHound. Here is the chatlog:

Session Start: Sun Apr 06 15:13:23 2003
Session Ident: betahound
Chat with betahound
Waiting for acknowledgement...
DCC Chat connection established
-
Nimitz: hello
betahound: Greetings!
Nimitz: so hows Vox
betahound: the sun shine todays - so Vox is fine. And you?
Nimitz: very well
betahound: one sec - plse.
Nimitz: k
betahound: k - I'm back.
Nimitz: so what you think of GS
betahound: Ah - our 'friends' to the south.
Nimitz: things going that badly
betahound: No - let me put it to you this way.
betahound: You probably have some sense of what it is like dealing with them across the ocean - try living next door to them.
betahound:
betahound:
Nimitz: yes you see there latest offer
betahound: I hear feudalism is making the rounds.
Nimitz: they think there right on everything
betahound: Yes - the business with C+C, republic, and mono was messy.
Nimitz: yes it was
betahound: Sorry you guys got caught up in that nonsense.
Nimitz: we still aren't happy they didn't do the NDA
betahound: NDA?
Nimitz: not to let others trade it
betahound: North Dakota Acadamy?
Nimitz: lol
betahound: ah - OK.
betahound: Ok - here is the trade situation with us and GS.
betahound: Let me chat for a bit - and then I will say finished- OK?
Nimitz: k
betahound: In the early days - we had them over a barrel. We had both IW and BW, and contact with Lux and then GoW.
betahound: We could have kept them in the dark for awhile. And maybe we should have.
betahound: But we reached a very progressive trade arrangement - which clearly favoured them in the start. They got contacts they would not otherwise have. They got techs cheap that we had traded for.
betahound: As time progressed, their economic 'might' passed ours.
betahound: They had all the contacts.
betahound: We really weren't need much any more.
betahound: The trade arangement gets modified in their favour.
betahound: I just did a recent calculation of the total beekers traded - and we are still 20 to the good. In other words we have 'provided' them more that they have 'provided' us.
betahound: And that does not count the contacts. Nor half of the Luxian treasury they demanded even though they did nothing to help .
betahound: So - that is us and GS. I'm finished.
Nimitz: so you feel they owe you and they don't care
Nimitz: they used you and threw you away
betahound: Yes - something along those lines. A friend once needed is quickly dropped.
Nimitz: yes well to bad
Nimitz: legoland is not like that
betahound: And we are certain they screwed us in the early land division of the continent.
betahound: Yes - I agree. Lego have been great to deal with.
Nimitz: we have had our share of betrayal
betahound:
betahound: And btw - thank-you for the recent deal/loan. It does help.
betahound: Have you checked the military advisor screen recently?
betahound:
Nimitz: nope
betahound: Does someone on Lego do it?
Nimitz: the others have but not me
Nimitz: the MA mostly
Nimitz: Military Arcitech
betahound: lol ... So - who do you think has the largest army right now?
Nimitz: RP
betahound: nope
Nimitz: ND
betahound: nope
Nimitz: you
betahound: yup
betahound: And 80% immortals.
Nimitz: hmm my theory could be right
betahound: which is?
Nimitz: when you go to war it will be RP
Nimitz: and not ND
betahound: nope
Nimitz: well I don't expect you to say who, so don't worry there
betahound: I will. Vox trusts Lego.
Nimitz: ok
betahound: And you should know.
Nimitz: speak
betahound: GS
Nimitz: this is interesting
betahound: two turns time
betahound: scary
Nimitz: they wont get Fue. Hhahahahhah
Nimitz: is GoW helping
betahound: ??
Nimitz: they are reseaching Fuedilism
Nimitz: I'm saying they wont get it
betahound: yes - that is our hope.
Nimitz: GoW will help or they don't get Fue.
betahound: GoW wants to walk the fine line between helping us, and forcing GS to give them feudalism
betahound: Nimitz - are you on Poly right now?
Nimitz: yes
betahound: can I send you a pm, plse
Nimitz: sure why not
betahound: but stay here - OK
Nimitz: I will
Nimitz: you know we were trying to delay a deal with GS so the prise would drop
betahound: yes - understood. Did you get my PM- and can you respond please. Thanks.
Nimitz: ok let me check
betahound: hello
Nimitz: got disconected
betahound: yes - also looks like poly went down
Nimitz: great....
betahound: did you get my pm
Nimitz: no lost the connection first
betahound: Ok - I was just concerned - and bear with me here - as I know ony enough about mIRC and chats to get myslef into trouble ...
betahound: how do I know you are Nimitx - and not some one from GS.
betahound:
betahound: That's why I sent the PM.
Nimitz: because my nick is registered
Nimitz: and passworded
betahound: That's what i figured.
betahound: Thanks - sorry for being so paranoid.
Nimitz: and would kick me if I didn't write the pass
betahound: Ok - back to the feudalism deal.
betahound: I suspect you may get it for great price eventually.
Nimitz: once GoW gets it, it will drop
betahound: I don't think we will be able to prevent them from getting it - but hope to make a big enough dent before they do.
betahound: yes - it will. The bargain basement crew.
betahound: So - we are researching engineering.
Nimitz: we know
betahound: But slowly.
Nimitz: 200 gold is to much
Nimitz: RP cheated you
betahound: ??
betahound: ?? on what?
Nimitz: they would of given us engineering for Con= Curr
betahound: OK - but I'm not sure how we got cheated.
betahound: Maybe I am missing your point here. Sorry.
betahound: point
Nimitz: never mind
Nimitz: you did mono
betahound: yes
betahound: Nimitz - help me here. What are we talking about?
Nimitz: war and engineering
betahound: OK - yes.
betahound: and?
betahound: But if you give them cash - it goes right to their war effort and upgrades.
betahound:
Nimitz: we aren't trading
Nimitz: we will wait
betahound: Bless you. Bless you.
Nimitz: we can wait
betahound:
Nimitz: 200 is way to much
betahound: yes.
betahound: Care to put that to a good cause?
Nimitz: well we were wondering about loanes
betahound: The ABGS fund.
betahound: Anyone But GS.
Nimitz: Gow if we trade for it most likely
betahound: Yes - I think GoW will come through on it. They have proven trustworthy so far.
betahound: They are helping with the attack.
betahound: Galleys with horsemen for the behind the lines stuff.
betahound: They held us to ransom for engineering - on Friday evening - but by then they knew too much - and could cause serious issues if they pulled out. They knew it and stuck it to us.
betahound:
betahound: Nimitz? u there?
Nimitz: yes
betahound: oh -ok
Nimitz: still talking with GS finishing up
Nimitz: got them to wait 5 turns
betahound: So - thank-you for the insights on feudalism and timing. Wish it was more like 15 turns. But every little bit helps. Thanks!
betahound: btw - we traded world maps with GoW as art of the engineering deal where we got rooked.
betahound: We can see the coast of Lego.
betahound:
Nimitz: oh bad GoW bad
Nimitz: we should not of let them look
Nimitz: lol
betahound: yes. You are not a big fan?
Nimitz: we like our privicy
betahound: Yes- understood.
betahound: So here's the plan. Just so you know.
betahound: There will be some public sabre rattling between us and GoW and talk about us going back to Bob.
Nimitz: ok
betahound: Two turns from now we take out a GS observer that is parked on a road south. That means declaring war. Some 5 turns later we hit their first city with a large force of immortals.
Nimitz: ok be careful
betahound: We have a plan to continue to pump out immortals and wear them down. It will require cash. We may be in touch.
betahound: If it looks like it is going to flop completely - we will cut our losses and see what kind of peace we can make - but for now - we are committed to eliminating them.
betahound: Yes - we will be. Thanks.
Nimitz: well gtg bye cya later
betahound: do you have 3 more minutes - something else to talk about.
Nimitz: ok
Nimitz: what is it?
betahound: long term - you should be aware that Gow's plan is for GoW and NeuD and Vox to take out GS, RP ,a nd Lego, in that order.
betahound: I think we can agree to the first two.
betahound:
Nimitz: we have had our guards up to that
betahound: We have already committed to the attack on RP.
Nimitz: I thought you would attack RP
betahound: And I believe that once that is underway - there will be a prime opportunity for Lego and Vox to finish the whole thing and turn Bob into a wildlife sanctuary.
Nimitz: lol
betahound: As NeuD and GoW attack RP from te north - and we will have troops landed on the souther coast - we wait a sufficient # of turns for them to beat each other up ...
Nimitz: you sent 2 PMs
betahound: and the we sweep in from the north, and roll up GoW, NeuD and what is left of RP.
betahound: yes - double send. Same note. Sorry.
betahound: That is the long-term plan which we are envisioning.
betahound: It will make the game shorter.
Nimitz: well gtg now bye talk later
betahound: We will chat soon?
Nimitz: if you want
betahound: yes - it would be good - will be in touch
betahound: bye
betahound: thanks!!
Nimitz: bye
Session Close: Sun Apr 06 16:28:36 2003

I will think this over and add my comments in a little while. Right now, I feel a very strong urge to help Voxes in every possible way - because of both rational and emotional reasons.

Voxes are apparently very much on our side - they would not tell us something THIS important just to look "friendly". It is obvious they see us as their ultimate ally (note the part of the chatlog about the future plans to attack Legoland). It would be extremely nice if Voxes eliminate GS, who are our only notable scientific match ATM (and probably for the whole game). Losing the main competitor, while gaining a trustworthy ally would be great... but this is just a very early reaction of mine - I will think this over and elaborate in details tomorrow.

[Kloreep]

I agree, Voxes still deserve our support, both because they are productively weak (and thus we won't create a superpower) and because they have been a fair and friendly team, unlike most. I'd definitely support them against GS; knock out some competition.

But I don't want to throw the RPers to the wolves, and the idea of eliminating them worries me. A war with ND to blunt their growth would be a good thing - they do have nice territory, and we don't want any powerful team in the future - but their elimination would create a superciv out of ND, especially if ND got most of the spoils.

Hopefully, GoW will backstap ND as the speculation goes. But what if they don't? And even if they do, they could crush ND between themselves and the RPers, leaving super-GoW. However it's cut, a two-civ Bob is way too powerful. If the RPers do face extinction, either from ND now or GoW later, I think we need to prop them up. They aren't the top team on my "save their butts" list, but we need to keep Bob's power relatively balanced.

[Tiberius]

I'm all for supporting Vox in this war.

First of all, they seem very friendly, honest and trustworthy. Actually I'm quite sure they are, not just "seem to be". (besides I wouldn't help GS even if they were the weakest team around)
Second: they are far from us and not a threat.
Third: Having a powerful civ next to Bob can be only good for us, as Bob will be be looking eastwards not SW, and we can continue our rexing and build our infrastructure and military, preparing for the inevitable final war(s).

In reaction to Kloreep's speculation about eliminating RPs: well, eliminating any civ on Bob is worrying. Should the RPs become too powerfull by eliminating ND for ex (with the help of GoW) is not any better than ND eliminating RP. Besides GoW has almost nothing to gain from conquering RP, they are far to far from them, so most likely they will turn against ND at some point. I'm sure that in the end there will be one strong team on Bob, one strong team on Estonia and us. That will be the decisive turning point, when we no longer can stay aside and watch.

Anyway, first things first: I would propose a very advantageous loan to Vox, because they need the money ASAP, before entering their golden ages, when they will have plenty of gold. So my proposal would be something like this: a 200 gold loan, given by us now, and they would start a gpt return (11gpt) once they entered their GA (the repay could be negotiable: it could be 5 gpt and 150 gold at the end of their GA).

PS I checked last night the mil. adv from the latest save and I was preparing to tell you today that something big is happening because the Voxes now have a strong military compared to us. Well, I'm a little late to say it, I think

[Sharpe]

Well, so much for Voxian honesty (although I think they mean the northeast portion of the continent not the northwest) - At least we know why they nearly took the full 24 hours to complete their turn:
_______________________________________

Vox Public Announcement - Operation MacArthur


Operation MacArthur

This is to advise the world's nations that Vox Controli has returned to the continent. We have tried to negotiate a mutually-beneficial agreement with the continental nations, but as of yet have not reached such a comprehensive agreement.

We come in peace. But we come in force.

Our claim is to the small portion of the north-west corner of the continent. We can discuss this rationally, and we will explain our needs for a maximum settlement of five cities - fairly tightly packed. We can even agree on city placement, and we will sign an agreement that this will be the extent of any claim we have on the continent. We would also ask that the city of Wittlich West be peacefully returned to its rightful owners - the Voxian people. We are willing to come to any reasonable agreement on this matter.

However, we are willing to defend our claim to this land. In fact, the operation is so named as the last Vox leader to leave the continent after our earlier expedition claimed "People of Wittlich West - I will return". He is committed to staying this time. And Vox Controli has ensured that he has the military backing to keep that commitment.

If war is the path chosen, such a war of attrition will only serve to weaken all the nations involved - at the expense of those involved. So, I plead for reason to prevail in this matter. Let peace and prosperity carry the day.

We are open to discuss this matter at any time. Please contact any member of our team if you wish to talk.

Peace.

BetaHound
Voice of Foreign Affairs
Vox Controli

______________________________________

Well, either things have changed or they have LIED to us. Or they are being really stupid by trying to attack GS and land on Bob at the same time.

Are you sure that we should support these guys anymore? Let's see if GoW or another Bob civ is on their side this time before we make any committments now...

You know that ND will not support any Voxian claim to any of their part of Bob - this will undoubtedly mean war... If Bob unites against them again, Vox will be finished as GS may not stand for it or may try to take advantage of it.

[ZargonX]

Well, I guess another possibility is that this is all part of some bizzare plan between them and GoW. Use the Bob landing as a feint to get ND to commit some forces to the east, and then Vox goes after GS and GoW goes after ND. RP involvement too? I dunno. We might want to clamp down the diplomatic hatches for a bit and see what develops.

[Tiberius]

Why are so quick to judge Sharpe?

Didn't Beta say that there will be a public rattling between them and GoW in public? So, there it is.

We know nothing yet. Let's see first what they're doing and in a few turns we will know.

[vondrack]

Yeah, of course, Tibi is 100% right - just found a PM from Beta... this is just a ruse to deceive GS and lead them into believing Voxes are actually going to invade Bob. Nothing has changed, everything proceeds as planned and announced before.