Operation: Glorious Plastic

[lmtoops]

Very interesting....we will have to see how this plays out.

[vondrack]

And perhaps, there are more questions we should ask...

This just from Hot_Enamel:

GoodDay to you Radek,

I have some more thoughts/concerns I felt I should share with you...



Quite a few turns back, I was confused with some of the troop movements by GS. They were building roads directly at us, and sent a settler & SOD. I thought they would claim the spice luxeries SW of Barcelona. But they sent it directly west...straight on top of the saltpeter.

This was our first major battle with GS, as we could not allow them to accidently build a city on that saltpeter.

I commented in our forum, that I thought it strange that they beelined for the saltpeter when they really should not know where it is.

Today, GS let it slip (intentional or not) that they know they have been screwed on the resources allocation., and hinted that they know where they want to settle if we agree to allowing them on Bob. They have also demanded that we give them all of our techs. We laughed at that one and simply said it was never going to happen. They currently have a road right on top of the saltpeter, and I suspect a worker or a settler nearby, if they ever get the gunpowder tech.

So... my concern is that someone from one of the teams "in the know", have told that they do not have saltpeter...and worse still, they have provided GS with a map, on where exactly on bob, there is a source.

Do you have any thoughts or suspicions? I admit, it is quite possible one of the "braggers" from GoW may not help themselves and have told GS of their lack of saltpeter, but I doubt anyone would supply them with a map or directions.

Anyway ... keeping you up to date...

Regs

Warwick

This is getting VERY serious, guys. Anyone has anything to comment on this? It was me (at least me, maybe even others) eventually telling Arnelos/RP that "some teams were screwed on resources" - even though much later than the battle mentioned by H_E happened.

But there was no way GS or RP could have known where the saltpeter was. Either thery were cheating or there was a traitor in GoW, ND, or our team.

[ZargonX]

Yes, even if they determined that they were screwed on Stormia, there is no way they could have known an exact location of saltpeter without someone telling them. It's either just amazing coincidence, someone leaking classified info (which I feel is incredibly unlikely), or they have "obtained" a map some other way.

[vondrack]

I went through some of the older posts and found out the battle H_E mentioned (the first big battle between our allies and GS) happened before we discovered gunpowder - means before anyone legally knew where saltpeter was. Which means the fact GS moved their units there is not really a reason to suspect a leak of confidential information (as there was nothing that could have been leaked, so to say, "legally").

It might have been a coincidence and GS might have a plan not related to saltpeter at that time. It, however, does not explain GS' hint today at that they know about where saltpeter is on Bob - though if I understand it correctly, it was not said directly, but rather hinted at.

[ZargonX]

Looking back, the only thing RP should have been able to infer from the chat you had with them was that they were screwed on saltpeter. There was no mention made of GS. That would lead me to believe that someone on GoW may have been trash-talking and let something slip

[vondrack]

Yes, that's true - I did not mention anything about GS. Though it would have been easy to misinterpret what I said and believe (correctly, btw) that it was even GS lacking saltpeter. Not sure.

But the real deal here is that saltpeter resource W of Barcelona. If they really know about it, as seems to be the case - where did the info come from? Trash-talking is a great opportunity to let a piece of general info slip through, but you do not give away the exact location of a key strategic resource...

I am quite puzzled by all this...

[ZargonX]

Yes, indeed. I would hope that no one would be so thick-headed as to give away such a critical piece of info as part of a taunt. GoW and ND are going to have to shakedown their own team members to find out if anyone let something slip, and if everything is ok on their end, well... that just leaves a mystery

[vondrack]

A PM from Aggie:

As it happened we had a "secret " chat with Theseus and Cort Haus. They are under the impression that Lego will hlep in a war against ND. The deal they offered us was along these lines.
1.They make RP leave Bob.
2. We three then gang up on ND. After that war we get the north half of Bob and you all three split the south.

Obviously this will not happen. I could not in good conscience betray an ally(particularyly one that has been so helpful and loyal) this way. Additionally I have submitted a proposal to my team for RP to remain on Bob. Basically this would give them the area from Bilboa to Barcelona(maybe a little more north or south of there). This would give them 1 or 2 lux but no resources and they could exist in some state. I am not sure that GS will agree to this, but am only negotiating with RP on this issue. If they agree(something Togas said was possible, but not sure), this would leave GS with no presence on BOB and I know they want a presence. The way I see it, GS is the danger since RP is effectively out of the running so peace with Rp now makes sense. Also it would make GS say the truth "they are doing this for territory not to save RP".

Here's why they want a presence, they believe that "saltpeter is scare". Somehow they found out about, or at least suspect, their lack of SP(It is possible that they are bluffing on this though and want us to give away where SP is located). They also said they believed they could not win if they didn't have some of Bob. Since they didn't say directly that they need territory on Bob for SP purposes, it is possible that they have done tile counts and figure they will be out produced and built if they have Stormia only.

On the worker for breaking Iron front, I left one on your path, but not in a slowing down position. If you want to pillage a tile that is ok too and might even be better. Considering the distance from our capital to skulgaria there is a good chance that the extra commerce from the road will be taken from corruption.
Best wishes
Patrick

Ps. here is the map of proposed RP Reservation

[vondrack]

Aside from silently ignoring the fact that we should perhaps explain how come GS is under impression we'd help in a war against ND, there is something worth some debate.

GoW (and ND, I assume) apparently consider the possibility of not finishing RP off completely, but letting them live in a "reservation". Do we like this or not? Is that good for us or not?

[Tiberius]

As it happened we had a "secret " chat with Theseus and Cort Haus. They are under the impression that Lego will hlep in a war against ND.

Gee, I wonder where did they take this idea from?

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by vondrack
GoW (and ND, I assume) apparently consider the possibility of not finishing RP off completely, but letting them live in a "reservation". Do we like this or not? Is that good for us or not?

I believe that not finishing off RP completely is both good and bad for us.
Bad because they will mess again in the foreign relations arena with all of their stupid accusations and plots and whatnot.
Good, because consequently GoW and ND will have less land and one more neighbour to worry about. The best thing about it is that actually GS will gain nothing from this war. Which is why they won't be happy with this solution.

Finally I think that we don't really have a say in this regard. It is GoW and ND fighting this war, they know better how far they can strech with this war, how much is worth for them to have that corner of Bob, too.

The solution is clearly bad for GS, GoW and ND, so it must be good for us

[redstar1]

Taking this plan as it appears.....

I assume the grey areas are cities GS want?

On the whole I think we could probably live with this. We could perhaps stretch 'no GS on bob' to 'very limited ubht controlled' GS on bob, especially if RP were to do a 'Vox'.

This would ensure RP aren't a contender, while reducing GOW/ND ins size.

While the war has been good to us, and will continue to be if it continues on its present course... its not going to do us a lot of good if we get dragged into an expensive conflict.

On the other hand, is this a veiled attempt by GS to divert their quest for land from Bob to Legos?

Towards the end of hostilities on Bob, we have really got to start looking at our defences...

[Tiberius]

The trick about GS is not letting them build a FP on Bob. They need a second productive core, and the ex-Vox territories are probably not of their liking. Letting them build one or two cities on Bob doesn't do any harm to us.

As for our home defences: top priority!

[ZargonX]

Well, it's not really up to us whether RP lives or dies, but if ND and GoW are willing to keep them around, it does hold benefits for us, as have been listed above. Of course, it does also leave open the possiblity that when the time is ripe, RP may just hand all its cities over to GS to use as the invasion front, but maybe I'm just being paranoid

Vondrack, do you want to contact GoW and explain that we ARE NOT allying with GS against ND, or should I do it?

[vondrack]

Originally posted by redstar1
I assume the grey areas are cities GS want?

I do not think so. I believe it's what Aggie mentioned here:

Basically this would give them the area from Bilboa to Barcelona(maybe a little more north or south of there)

I believe Aggie stated quite clearly GS would have no presence at all on Bob:

I am not sure that GS will agree to this, but am only negotiating with RP on this issue. If they agree(something Togas said was possible, but not sure), this would leave GS with no presence on BOB and I know they want a presence.

I agree that some land for RP means less land for GoW/ND, which is just fine. We would certainly not mind that. The cost would be having to cope with RP being around, which we have learned is troublesome. I also agree that we will have little say about what GoW & ND decide - the reason for asking was that we still could say one way or another, if we wanted - perhaps with little effect, but we could try. But I can see that we pretty much feel the way I felt after reading the PM: oh, well, we will be able to live with that.

Good points re: FP and second core for GS, homeland defenses, possibility of GS turning their eyes towards us (though that would be at least as far as Navigation).

Originally posted by ZargonX
Vondrack, do you want to contact GoW and explain that we ARE NOT allying with GS against ND, or should I do it?

I will handle that. I will send a short PM and further explain in Thursday chat.

Finally - do not forget that this is just something that is being discussed. Fortunately for us, we can handle it either way, unlike, say, GS. Unless something really unexpected happens, I would expect GS to attack soon, maybe even despite peace talks between GoW/ND and RP. If they are lucky, they will improve the negotiating position of theirs and RP. If they fail miserably, they just end up with what they'd end up if withdrawing without a fight - i.e. with nothing. And trying to turn the tide with some 30 odd knights conveniently deployed on Bob certainly is easier than to invade from scratch at a later date (especially if they suspect a lack of saltpeter).