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Letting Vox Live

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  • #16
    zeit mirrors my sentiments/thoughts on this matter exactly (or, I mirror his, whatever).
    I'm really glad to hear that, finnaly someone besides me sees through Vox's new "lets live in peace and prosper" mask. Don't let them fool you- they bullied us until they felt safe enough to stop and were reminded of their preliminary disadvantage.
    Save the rainforests!
    Join the us today and say NO to CIV'ers chopping jungles

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    • #17
      I know that I don't trust vox at all, it wouldn't suprise me that even if they agreed to the long term partnership, they would feed data to the other civs in an attempt to throw us off the continent.

      Isn't flash a member of that group? not sure how influential he is, doubtful very much, but thats one guaranteed person against us.

      I would just as soon live in peace for a time, build up a small commando fleet, figure out where the other civ to the north is, then blitz them, severing their iron in the first turn then pounding them from the south.
      they have a severe weakness-one source of iron (supposedly).
      cut that and they will be through.

      I have little tolerance for their shenanigans.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by zeit


        I'm really glad to hear that, finnaly someone besides me sees through Vox's new "lets live in peace and prosper" mask. Don't let them fool you- they bullied us until they felt safe enough to stop and were reminded of their preliminary disadvantage.
        I also agree with you,.

        as has been said, the longer we go without war, they will become more weak relatively, and decide at some point to attack us.

        I daresay the repercussions of us first striking them would be large, as the other groups would surely ally against us and Generals Arrian, Theseus, Velociryx, and Soren. However, a defensive war (which would easily be turned into an offensive war) would save our reputation. the old -They attacked us first.

        A calculated risk, no doubt.

        My bet is, that once they have 7-10 immortals, they will go on the war path. Luckily, that jungle will prove inhospitible to their invasion. (likewise to our chariots, which won't be able to cross unless a jungle)

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by DeepO


          Don't get me wrong, I wasn't saying we should run our next settler that direction. It wuold be the same as going for the neck... but if we want to claim all the land, we definately will need to secure that position, so that the spinebreaker mountains are in our territory completely, instead of being a bridge between Vox and us. So, after #3 and #7 are founded, I would start settling to our North (#1, followed by #13 or #12), and only then backfill. This should make it possible to get all of the mountain range in our borders.

          Oh, of course, #4 will be needed one time or another, as we both need it to have #3 at full food capacity, and it can be a nice production city. So that should come somewhere in between.
          I view #1 as something for the distant future. Until we get in a government where flood plains produce four food instead of three, it's a low-value location that would increase corruption in higher-value locations.

          Settling #12 as one of our first few cities has three major problems. First, it undercuts our REX advantage because corruption there will be high. Second, it could easily provoke Vox into starting a war before our production advantage gets a chance to really kick in (especially if we follow a barracks-before-troops strategy to maximize our power later). And third, the city would be difficult to defend if Vox does decide to attack (except maybe if we ruin our research in order to upgrade a bunch of warriors to swordsmen early).

          There may or may not also be a fourth problem. Unless and until we reach a point where Vox stops being useful as a trade partner, we're better off not doing things that would make them angry and cause them to decide they don't want to do business with us anymore.

          Nathan

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          • #20
            My opinion:

            Vox won't volunteer to be a vassal, and they are unlikely to go for the irrigation proposal, at least not anytime soon (they're not gonna give us workers! Hah! I wouldn't do it, would you?).

            I think Nathan's point about northern expansion is this (tell me if I'm wrong, Nathan): our growth must be defensible. In other words, if for some reason our building a city up north provokes Vox (or if they just decide to roll the dice), can we defend it? If we settle it soon, we probably can't.

            I'm of two minds on this. My first thought is that we need a city up there, sooner rather than later, to stake our claim north of the mountains, thus throwing up a roadblock to an immortal/spearman invasion down the mountains. My second thought is we aren't going to be able to mount a credible defense of that city until we have a city or two with barracks building spears and, more importantly, war chariots (or vet warriors for upgrading). That's a dilemna.

            Let's get a couple more core cities built (spot #3, spot #4 or #7) and reevaluate.

            -Arrian
            grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

            The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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            • #21
              I think the question is actgually settled fairly simply:

              We MUST prepare defensively for the possibility that Vox intends to come at us with Immortals.

              When the time comes that our defensive force becomes strong enough for offense, we find a way to make SURE that Vox attacks us... then we wipe'em out.
              The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

              Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.

              Comment


              • #22
                Make sure they attack us? That's not going to be as easy as it is with the AI. If we bully them into it, you better believe that other teams will be informed... and they will know what's going on. If we decide to destroy Vox, IMO, we should not be shy about just going ahead and attacking them.

                Sure, them attacking us at a time or our choosing is the best-case scenario, as we will have the ability to hit their attack forces on our ground and we can also claim "victim" status. But we cannot count on them doing what is good for us.

                In order to properly assess our options, however, we need a couple of things: 1) Ironworking and 2) a galley exploration of their coastline. In any war, we have got to try and cut their iron.

                -Arrian
                grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Our first three settlers are going to come only four turns apart. Then I'm thinking seven turns to build three workers (the first takes longer because our production will be lower) and then back to settlers for a while at 5 turns each.

                  Hurricane will probably be our first city with a barracks (if we start one right after the worker), with completion maybe about 20 turns from now or just a little less (with the exact time depending on how we balance growth and production). That would probably make our fifth settler, maybe our fourth, the first we could provide with a veteran spearman escort. (I or someone else needs to game that out to see exactly how the timing works.) And even then, we couldn't hold the city against a truly serious attack.

                  Nathan

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                  • #24
                    True, but that would essentially force them to show up with more than warriors. They would have to either build archers (waste of production) or send in their immortals.

                    Three settlers four turns apart? Wow, you are a magician!

                    Hurricane isn't exactly a production monster, but if we start right after the worker is built, it can start producing vet spearmen at about the right time. It will produce them every 4-5 turns in the beginning, perhaps getting down to 3 turns (7 uncorrupted shields required). Translation: we will need another barracks town fairly soon. Hurricane can build spears, the second barracks town can build chariots.

                    -Arrian
                    grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                    The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Arrian
                      True, but that would essentially force them to show up with more than warriors. They would have to either build archers (waste of production) or send in their immortals.
                      The tricky thing is that if they use immortals, they get their GA early. That won't be good for them in the long run, but it might make life a bit... interesting for us in the short run. Then again, depending on how good a tiles they're working, the GA might just help their gold, not their production.

                      Three settlers four turns apart? Wow, you are a magician!
                      More like an alchemist, finding the right formula to turn wood into settlers. Although I never would have caught it if someone else hadn't noticed that building a wonder one place can redirect lumber to another.

                      Actually, it's not all that rare for me to have settler pumps that can churn out settlers every four turns or workers every two on a permanent basis. (I even have one in the Euro-PBEM game using an irrigated cow and a mined cow.)

                      Hurricane isn't exactly a production monster, but if we start right after the worker is built, it can start producing vet spearmen at about the right time. It will produce them every 4-5 turns in the beginning, perhaps getting down to 3 turns (7 uncorrupted shields required). Translation: we will need another barracks town fairly soon. Hurricane can build spears, the second barracks town can build chariots.
                      I'm thinking in terms of going for #3, then #7, and then #4 (or maybe the gold hill site). #3 would get a granary, and #7 and #4 barracks. (I'm less sure about how to get the best return from the gold city.)

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                      • #26
                        We need Warriors, Spearmen, and WCs before a second Settler pump.

                        Assume the worst... a 4 Immortal attack. That means Spearmen in key defensive positions, WCs for the two 'alleys' east and west of the Spinebreakers, and Swords for the tough spots.

                        I haven;t calculated it out, but I reason that the time period for Vox to upgrade 4 Warriors and transit them is relatively short.
                        The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

                        Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Time for transit alone is 13 turns from the time we see them (once we take up a permanent position on the mountain I call Lookout Ridge) to the time they hit EotS. If Vox can show up there with a good strike force before our next three cities get built, we have something to worry about. Otherwise, we're in pretty good shape.

                          (1) Have you thought about what EotS could do if it focused its efforts on production instead of growth? Even with no production saved up from having just finished a settler, it could churn out six regular WCs and/or spearmen, or a barracks and four veterans, between the time the Voxian forces enter our view and the time they strike. Add some production toward a settler and the number could easily go up by one. (This is looking ahead a bit to when it has another chop and irrigation behind it and its lowest size level is at least four and halfway to five.)

                          (2) Hurricane should be able to produce another two such units, or a barracks and one veteran if it gets caught just at the "wrong" time.

                          (3) #7 could produce at least a unit or two.

                          (4) #3 could switch to either units or to a barracks followed by units unless it's over 40 shields, and by the time it's over 40 shields, it will be big enough and productive enough it could finish the granary and still have time for a unit or two to get into the fighting.

                          (5) If we have iron or can hook it up in time, we could get enough gold for at least three warrior-to-swordsman upgrades, probably four, between the time we see Vox and the time they can attack.

                          Add those together and the defensive value of time and distance can be enormous. That's why I wanted so badly to keep a forward observation post.

                          Longer-term, note that in a classic REX, our early potential barracks cities would be expected to interrupt their military operations building settlers (taking both production and population for future production away from military efforts). But a second good settler pump could free a couple military cities to grow larger and more productive and focus their energy on military efforts if we feel the need for them to do so.

                          Nathan
                          Last edited by nbarclay; January 14, 2003, 02:36.

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                          • #28
                            Nathan,

                            I've been thinking more about our next few city builds, and I think we might want to go #3, the gold hill (forget the number), and then either #4 or #7.

                            -Arrian
                            grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                            The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Out of safety, I'd rather have #7 before the gold, as it will make instant WC building possible (if we see Vox coming)...

                              DeepO

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Yeah, I suppose you're right. #3, #7, Gold, #4. How does that look?

                                -Arrian
                                grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                                The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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