GoW- Diplomacy comments #2

[Shiber]

So do I.

[nbarclay]

Here's an alternative draft message that I just came up with. My premise is that at this point, we don't especially care whether GoW goes to war with us or not, so we can afford to push a bit.

Greetings, Glorious Warriors,

We of Gathering Storm have no desire to fight your great nation, but if the price of avoiding war is that we must give up our sovereignty, that is a higher price than we are willing to pay. One key aspect of sovereignty is the power to enter into mutually beneficial agreements with other nations, and your demands for veto power over our agreements with Spain are a gross violation of our sovereignty.

The cities we obtained from Spain are not merely useless baggage with no value other than getting in your way. They are already able to contribute to our nation, and can someday contribute far more with courthouses and the proper tile improvements in place. Corruption in those cities is certainly a problem, but by no means an insurmountable one. Further, with a territory expansion, Toledo can provide us with a source of silks within our own territory.

We recognize that our obtaining those cities through diplomatic means before you could annex them militarily has caused you a certain amount of inconvenience. But the opportunity we were presented with to obtain land for free instead of having to fight for it was too good to pass up. Given your fondness for the letter of the agreement, surely you can recognize that a non-aggression pact is not a “won’t take advantage of any opportunity that the other would find inconvenient” pact. Further, GoW did not shed a single drop of blood in an effort to take those cities (indeed, you are not even at war with RP in-game yet), so it is not as if we were depriving you of prizes of an ongoing battle. That is in stark contrast to what the situation would have been had you obtained Voxian lands after we paid in blood to destroy Vox’s power to hold its lands. Also consider that during our war with Vox, there was no non-aggression pact to limit our ability to declare war if we found your actions annoying; indeed, you were already technically at war with us at the time.

All we are really guilty of is that our diplomats moved faster than your Riders in obtaining land that both of us regard as desirable in spite of its high corruption levels. We have not taken or threatened anything that belongs to you. We have not taken or threatened anything you had any legitimate claim on beyond the mere fact that you wanted to take it in the near future. If Glory of War chooses to declare war due merely to irritation at being outmaneuvered diplomatically, the onus of breaking the non-aggression pact will clearly be on you.

In closing, we would like to make it clear once again that a non-aggression pact is not a right of passage agreement. Your moving through our cities to attack Roleplay is little different from if we moved through your lands to attack Neu Demogyptica from the north, a movement that surely would require more than a mere non-aggression pact to justify. Further, Gathering Storm has a long-standing policy of viewing unauthorized movement of foreign military forces into our territory as an act of aggression against us, as the fate of Mad King Donegeal’s expedition into our lands can surely attest. Our policy of not allowing foreign soldiers into our lands (especially while we are at war) is not merely something we made up on the spot to get in your way. We are willing to overlook your forces’ current presence in our territory, but understand that any further encroachments will have consequences.

Please let us know whether you intend to honor our non-aggression pact or not so we can make our plans accordingly.

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm

[notyoueither]

We can send that. It works well. I am sure they will back off, and that letter gives them every reason to do so.

[Harovan]

Yes, it's a good answer.

[alva]

It convinced me , good work

[Theseus]

Nathan, if you haven't sent that already... PLEASE DON'T.

Please understand, while I completely agree with the logic as presented, it is a diplo fiasco (unless we have positively CHOSEN war with GoW).

Everybody, please read it again, and ask yourself if upon reciept, you blood wouldn;t boil a bit at the sheer arrogance...

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Theseus
Nathan, if you haven't sent that already... PLEASE DON'T.

Please understand, while I completely agree with the logic as presented, it is a diplo fiasco (unless we have positively CHOSEN war with GoW).

Everybody, please read it again, and ask yourself if upon reciept, you blood wouldn;t boil a bit at the sheer arrogance...

+

I was under the impression that was the point of it, a final barrage to start the war. Its certainly not the type of letter to send if we are equivocating. I like it

[Theseus]

When was it decided we want war with GoW? Do they not have 14 Riders on our doorstep?

I, for one, would be much more comfortable eviscerating ND first... and I wouldn;t mind GoW participating in that effort.

[notyoueither]

What would you propose, Theseus?

[notyoueither]

Does this read better?

Greetings, Glorious Warriors,

We of Gathering Storm have no desire to fight your great nation, but we must maintain our sovereignty. One key aspect of sovereignty is the power to enter into mutually beneficial agreements with other nations, and your demands for veto power over our agreements with Spain are a violation of our sovereignty.

The cities we obtained from Spain are not merely useless baggage with no value other than getting in your way. They are already able to contribute to our nation, and can someday contribute far more with courthouses and the proper tile improvements in place. Corruption in those cities is certainly a problem, but by no means an insurmountable one. Further, with a territory expansion, Toledo can provide us with a source of silks within our own territory.

We recognize that our obtaining those cities through diplomatic means before you could annex them militarily has caused you a certain amount of inconvenience. But the opportunity we were presented with to obtain land diplomatically instead of having to fight for it was too good to pass up. Surely you can recognize that a non-aggression pact is not a “won’t take advantage of any opportunity that the other would find inconvenient” pact. Further, GoW did not shed a single drop of blood in an effort to take those cities (indeed, you are not even at war with RP in-game yet), so it is not as if we are depriving you of prizes of an ongoing battle.

All we are really guilty of is that our diplomats moved faster than your Riders in obtaining land that both of us regard as desirable in spite of its high corruption levels. We have not taken or threatened anything that belongs to you. We have not taken or threatened anything you had any legitimate claim on beyond the mere fact that you wanted to take it in the near future.

In closing, we would like to make it clear once again that a non-aggression pact is not a right of passage agreement. Your moving through our cities to attack Roleplay is little different from if we moved through your lands to attack Neu Demogyptica from the north, a movement that surely would require more than a mere non-aggression pact to justify. Further, Gathering Storm has a long-standing policy of viewing unauthorized movement of foreign military forces into our territory as an act of aggression against us, as the fate of Mad King Donegeal’s expedition into our lands can surely attest. Our policy of not allowing foreign soldiers into our lands (especially while we are at war) is not merely something we made up on the spot to get in your way. We are willing to overlook your forces’ current presence in our territory, but must insist that they retrun the way they came.

Please let us know whether you intend to honor our non-aggression pact or not so we can make our plans accordingly.

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm

[nbarclay]

My goal isn't so much to push GoW into a war as it is to push them to choose. If GoW is going to honor the treaty, we need our knights on the ND front. If GoW is not going to honor the treaty, let them attack now while we have plenty of forces in the area and get it over with, and then we can focus on ND without worrying about nearly so many Riders in the area.

If GoW were inclined to sit still while we and RP take out ND, they would probably already be doing that. Instead, they're behaving as if they are fully intent on fighting RP - unless we keep them from getting to RP, in which case they would be willing to settle for fighting us. (After all, they have to fight someone to trigger their GA.) Either we or RP have to keep enough units on the eastern front to defend against a GoW attack, and if we aren't sure whether GoW will go after us (in which case we need sufficient forces in the area to mount a credible defense against fourteen Riders) or RP (in which case our forces in the area are useless because we aren't allowed to attack, both of us have to worry about keeping strong forces on the eastern front. So I think we're better off pushing GoW to go ahead and either declare war over our actions or accept that what we've done is legal under the treaty if not entirely nice.

[nbarclay]

I have no objection to NYE's revisions.

[Theseus]

Excellent tone and flow.

I'm still on the side of avoiding a GoW war, but, that said, I am fine with the latest version.

(Not trying to be a stick in the mud, guys, I... dunno, just want to play down the arrogance thing... it really bugs me, including in trying to re-invigorate the Strat forum. Bear with me.)

[notyoueither]

No problem, Theseus. <---- note the u

You are quite correct that we do not want war with GoW right now if it can be avoided.

[Arrian]

Was letting GoW know about the Inchon flip/flop intentional? (see GoW contact log).

-Arrian