GoW- Diplomacy comments #2

[DeepO]

I'm still not sure on Lego ordering the contract, it could very well have been Vox themselves. I always suspected that since the first time they went onto the plains: they said something afterwards (when asked why they did that), that it was a case of poor timing on GoW's part. For sure, there was talk between them at that time, although it was not certain Vox was paying... but they did have the perfect thing to pay with: a city close to GoW.

If Lego ordered the contract, they did it before they started talking about Voxodus (although they asked us in the first turn of war if it would be okay for us to provide a safe haven).

But it's rather irrelevant who paid, what it does show is that GoW will be honorable, to a certain degree, in that they follow their contracts. But, if a first contract asks for a declaration of war, they don't have any problem violating a NAP, or even a (Sea)ROP with a later deal. Likewise, if a contract on our heads has already been made, they can ask for a NAP with us, and without problem violating it later once we feel secure. We should include a clause forbidding them to take any contracts on us during a possible NAP, but we can't rule out they already have a secret contract going.

DeepO

[Arrian]

If I understand it correctly, we are discussing a possible pact with GoW that would ensure:

1) We will not start a war of aggression against them, nor them against us;

2) That both teams are free to do as they wish if the other starts a war.

So if GoW is attacked by ND+RP, we can hit RP. But if GoW + someone gang up on someone else, we reserve the right to hit GoW, yes? Or am I misunderstanding?

By the way, I think it is probably in our interests for war to break out on Bob soon, and for us to get involved. Why? Because right now we have a powerful military compared to the rest of the world. That won't last, folks.

My hope would be ND+RP versus GoW, with us invading RP. That's our ideal war scenario. The worst for us is GoW + RP eating ND. The question is how do we try to get the war we want?

-Arrian

[zeit]

Good news from UnO- looks like Chivalry is going to go through as planned (he didn't say anything about timing, but I figured its okay, from the tone of the message).

We'll probably have a chat in the next few days, around 10:00 GMT, is anyone able to participate at those times?
I'll be there anyway, so there shouldn't be a problem, still, I'm not too comfortable with chats...

[Shiber]

10:00 GMT...
Any chance you could make it an hour later?
I can try to make it to 10:00 GMT (give me a wakeup call, you have my cell # ), but 11:00 GMT would be so much more convenient.

[OPD]

Originally posted by Arrian
If I understand it correctly, we are discussing a possible pact with GoW that would ensure:

1) We will not start a war of aggression against them, nor them against us;

2) That both teams are free to do as they wish if the other starts a war.

So if GoW is attacked by ND+RP, we can hit RP. But if GoW + someone gang up on someone else, we reserve the right to hit GoW, yes? Or am I misunderstanding?

By the way, I think it is probably in our interests for war to break out on Bob soon, and for us to get involved. Why? Because right now we have a powerful military compared to the rest of the world. That won't last, folks.

My hope would be ND+RP versus GoW, with us invading RP. That's our ideal war scenario. The worst for us is GoW + RP eating ND. The question is how do we try to get the war we want?

-Arrian

I agree that the ideal situation would be us and GOW vs ND and RP. Although I think us and RP vs GOW and ND would also be an attractive scenario. We take all of GOW's land while they get ND's perhaps.

So as long as point 2 above is in it looks good.

In the long term I think the best situation would be us and one bobian civ left (who we were allied with) and an agreement to hit lego together, preferably worked into the alliance at an early stage.

[zeit]

Okay, we have some serious stuff to discuss after this chat with GoW, seems to me that our relations have "upped" themselves by a notch or two- but this could be just an impression.

Sadly, I won't be able to handle this probably until tuesday, but it deserves serious discussion.

1) NAP or limited NAP with GoW- since we'll probably not be fighting GoW, even if its them with RP or ND against the other Bobian. We have reasons to decide against it, especially when how unfortunate it would be if the existence of such NAP is discovered.

2) Alliance against Lego- taking out those who would become the top dogs if letf alone is a worthy goal, but of course this requires alot of trust, secrecy, and risk. I personally feel like this will be a game breaker for us- making sure Lego will not be able to win.

3) Relates to #2- do we consider signning some form of protection pact with GoW, that would free them from worrying about the other Bobian(s) while we deal with Lego. I'm thinking against this, as it seems to me they would benefit a whole lot more from this kind of agreement, and the liability is great.

Issue #1 needs to be discussed first, of course, and is the most pressing issue for them.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by zeit
1) NAP or limited NAP with GoW- since we'll probably not be fighting GoW, even if its them with RP or ND against the other Bobian. We have reasons to decide against it, especially when how unfortunate it would be if the existence of such NAP is discovered.

A mutual secrecy and denial clause is required.
Anyway, GoW can tell another civ that we have a NAP (with malicious intent or for other reasons) whether or not we actually have a NAP with them.

2) Alliance against Lego- taking out those who would become the top dogs if letf alone is a worthy goal, but of course this requires alot of trust, secrecy, and risk. I personally feel like this will be a game breaker for us- making sure Lego will not be able to win.

I don't trust GoW much... and besides, we already have a very profitable middle-term future plotted out with Lego by our side.
It's very important that we raise this issue often during chats and that we discuss this and say how much we feel that Lego should be weakened, because this is what the other civs expect and want to hear (if they don't hear it, they'll suspect us immediately for trying to pull something off). But let's not actually agree to something such as a joint military invasion of Lego Land in the near to middle-term future.

3) Relates to #2- do we consider signning some form of protection pact with GoW, that would free them from worrying about the other Bobian(s) while we deal with Lego. I'm thinking against this, as it seems to me they would benefit a whole lot more from this kind of agreement, and the liability is great.

You mean an MPP?

[DeepO]

Originally posted by zeit
2) Alliance against Lego- taking out those who would become the top dogs if letf alone is a worthy goal, but of course this requires alot of trust, secrecy, and risk. I personally feel like this will be a game breaker for us- making sure Lego will not be able to win.

I don't share this view... I mean, talk about alliance is great, and I wouldn't stop chatting (it might take away the pressure from us, if Bob is invading Lego), but if Lego remains peaceful, they have no chance of winning. They can only win by spaceship, and this game won't go that far, IMHO. Whoever wins will have a large territory on Bob, if not the whole of Bob...

DeepO

[Shiber]

You know, that's pretty interesting. We should mention that to the Bobians sometime, so that they'd become more afraid that Lego might invade and hopefully less afraid that we might. Of course, we should not mention that until after the war on Bob, or the Bobians might get too wary of Lego and unite instead of fight each other.

[Aeson]

Let them keep thinking Lego is the defacto winner if they really are. If we convince them that Lego has to invade Bob at some point to win, then we are convincing them that we have to too.

[zeit]

I'm tryingto get another chat goine- to get whatever it is we want to rolling (we should find out what we want, as it will certainly help ). We could use a chat to get some ideas into GoW's mind and see where it leads- it certainly looks like the directions we're taking right now.

[Arrian]

I think everyone knows where I stand.

-Arrian

[Shiber]

As you say, I feel both our teams are really working towards the same end, and that will keep us cooperating. At least until Lego is no longer an issue, that is . We both would like to win after that, and such things would be expected.

Have you noticed this?
He's talking about post-taking over Bob. Either he's a really good liar, or he is in fact thinking that we have a mutual interest and wants to go on with this.
This might actually work... :crossing-fingers:

[zeit]

I think we should all read the chat log cery carefuly. Remember, GoW doesn't presume that GS' ambassador has any real "power" in GS. They already know how this team is working, and that we have no real "leader". That's why I think them choosing words like: "fate" (along with "entwined"), aren't just attempts at seducing us, but could actually represent a desire for future cooperation, in a deeper level. Otherwise I find it strange that they worked so hard at convincing a measly ambassador...

Of coursse, a good liar actually believes his lies are true, at least at some level of consciousness- but still, we mustn't take things lightly.

The technicalities need to be settled- what time is good for you?
UnO has suggested 0300 GMT saturday or sunday.

[DeepO]

3 GMT? wow... add a couple of hours of chat, and the sun will be shining again

I want to join in, but could only make it on Sunday. And I don't intend to say much

DeepO