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Military conquer with Democracy

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  • Aurelius
    replied
    Hi Carolus Rex,

    After reading several posts at that thread, I've begun to wonder if the Fundy's have gone the way of the Dinosaur. Haven't seen any of them around here....

    AU--I liked Frank Johnson's "Great Barrier" city.

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  • Carolus Rex
    replied
    More opinions

    http://apolyton.net/forums/Archives/...-3-000183.html

    Carolus

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  • Traianvs
    replied
    when i fight my wars under democracy, i usually have a railroad connected to the enemy(i close a gap with a transport so enemy units can't reach your cities)...so it's quite easy, make a lot of howitzers, some tanks and mech infantry...and you kill a few cities in one turn...without unhappyness

    ------------------
    ThermiteB(that's me!) RLZ like HELL!!!!!!!!!!

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  • Aurelius
    replied
    Grigor,

    Hawk intervention-I heard that it was based on pure chance. And one needs United Nations or SoL to have a chance-50%?! Reputation or demographics has no part in the formula...though there was some other factor....?!

    The best way to accomplish the scandalous land conquest is to have war involved allies...so when the enemy gets a reprieve from our foolish senate, we can go to the ally and have them request our assistence in the war effort without scandal...though perhaps a loss of reputation.

    Another problem during civilized times is when the allied AI is ahead in the Space Race or prior to the space race. I think dissolving the Alliance and realigning with other more hostile AI's can have an inciting effect on the jilted.

    I once had a game with an ally that was going to be in AC first. My howitzer brigade was lamed by the senate and the unwillingness of the ally to speak. So we sent in the spies to incite them--blew up two cities with suitcase nukes and didn't get caught! Of course we wanted to get caught! But in your scadaless version, one can't get caught. But what I did notice was the ally went from wondrous to uncooperative--that might be useful later....

    AU--Barbarians in Civilized Cloth!

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  • Grigor
    replied
    Many of these wonderful ideas for smashing the AI involve going out of Democracy for a turn [often with SoL] and declaring war when the Senate is not operating. It would seem that an even bigger challenge might be to conquer the world as a Democracy without ever changing governments or falling into Anarchy once Democracy was established. I would guess that the rules would have to be something like this: you must take the fastest tech path to Democracy, immediately revolt, and conquer the entire world without further scandal or change of government. I'll bet this is hard.

    It seems like the only general plan would be to almost completely civilize the world first so as to have not so many cities to take out. One way might be to get Apollo and build a huge spaceship very slowly; wait for the AI to get huffy and then killkillkillkillkill. Perhaps there is a use for Manhattan Project here.

    Is it true that the doves and hawks stay in power for several turns at a time? What causes one faction or the other to be in charge? Is it related to general happiness? Perhaps length of military service or some other stat in the Demographics table?



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    --grigor

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  • kcbob
    replied
    This might have been mentioned above and, then again, you might not consider it to be part of militarily conquering the world but not enough can be said for diplomats/spys and bribing cities. There's nothing sweeter than successfully bribing the last city of a civilization and destroying them "not with a bang but a whimper".

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    Frodo lives!

    Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

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  • Aurelius
    replied
    Not sure if this was mentioned above, but a neat trick in attacking with a democracy is first building a one turn fortress next to the city you intend on conquering that turn. Then after taking the city, all the stopped units are garrisoned and within three tiles of the conquested city-happy happy happy.

    So many democracies at war...

    AU--Democratic conquest by land-not sea.

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  • rah
    replied
    An old trick if you are in democ and have the un (or in republic) is to test the water with a civ you're already at peace with, if the hawks are in charge, communicate with the civ that you're at war with, and the senate will usually support continued agression. If you have just contacted them, you can then attack their cities right away without worrying about that nasty popup window. Works like a charm almost all the time.
    RAH

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  • Sivro
    replied
    I also have no MP experience, but here goes: To carry on a democratic war, trade is key. This helps later on because you can divert 20 or even 30 percent trade to luxuries. No more unhappiness problem! Also, the UN is very helpful. Many times, I actually prefer to fight wars in a democracy because of the non-bribing factor.

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  • Steve Clark
    replied
    I can appreciate wanting to try something different by conquering under Democracy, but nothing is more fun than moving 15-20 units next a large AI city and then breaking treaties and alliances under Fund. Use Democracy to quickly get the necessary techs and then switch govt. to clobber the other civs.

    I wish I had time to do MP so I can take back everything I have ever said in this forum

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Naval- and air-units next to an AI don´t matter.

    But I´m not sure about helis.

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  • Xin Yu
    replied
    You don't always get a cease-fire request when you occupy a city. Make sure none of your units are next to your enemy's units. Make a no man zone before you take several cities at a time, then you can sign a cease fire because you need time to regroup your troops!

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  • Scouse Gits
    replied
    The biggest problem is the Senate. The stages of democratic warfare usually go as follows:

    Enemy X sneak attacks. You reply by taking one of their cities. Then one of their emissaries will ask for an audience – you say no – but the Senate usually signs a cease-fire behind your back. They will either sneak attack again or you will receive a notice that the cease-fire agreement has expired. (I think after about 8 turns) If at this at this stage you try to start hostilities – the Senate will usually enforce another cease-fire. This pattern can repeat itself several times. Eventually, the Senate will tire of the continual sneak attacks and will pass a resolution for continued action against the bad guys. Make the most of this when it happens.

    However, there are things you can do. The AI is not very subtle when working up to a sneak raid. They tend to park catapults in your back yard. (In a cease-fire situation you have no option to “insist they withdraw their troops”) You can usually guess what will happen, so you have some chance to reinforce and withdraw vulnerable units like engineers. When you think an attack is due, have a diplo ready. Sometimes an AI city will go into riot because they have shuffled their troops around, and moved too many out. At his point, you buy the place! If they have actually attacked, you buy at a bargain price. If they have not yet broken the cease-fire you will have to pay double to prevent an incident. (This works out to the normal price, because of civil disorder.)

    Another point to watch out for are the AI alliances. Very often you will hear that X and Y have made a pact, named after some godforsaken unpronounceable town – to contain your aggression. (This is a sure sign you are winning!) Make a note of these, especially if you have no embassies. The play goes like this: Enemy X can attack, but when you retaliate Enemy Y is brought into the war. Knowing this will happen is blue-chip intelligence. Have a tidy little task force ready to attack Enemy Y. I usually do this by sea if possible. Lurk just beyond their horizon, then pounce.

    All the above is without the United Nations. (This wonder must be built for war in a democracy.) Then things become slightly easier. You will have a complete embassy system, with the intelligence this offers, and will gain more leeway with your Senate. In addition, the advent of Communism opens up espionage. This must be your next target for research. Spies are much better than diplomats.

    The most difficult thing to handle are the cease-fires. It would be far better if the Senate imposed a permanent peace treaty. Under cease-fires, enemy troops wander around your patch making communications impossible. You will probably be able to guess when the cease-fire is coming, so prepare to use the choke points in your territory to keep the little ******* out!

    The restrictions the Senate place upon you in a democracy are realistic. Just imagine how powerful you could be without them. That is politics! As Winston Churchill once remarked to new Member of Parliament:
    “The opposition are in front of you, but the enemy is behind you”

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    Scouse Git (2)

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Actually happiness is absolutely no problem, and if you built the super science city before, you will be that much ahead in technology, that you will be able to take the world with one or two dozens of helicopters (just for example)

    you won´t enjoy it though, because each time you conquered an AI-city you get that pop-up diplo-window. diplomacy is the least thing you need at this moment, but certainly you have to subscribe cease fire or peace (btw IMO subscribing peace is better choice)

    but when you have enough patience, you finally will succeed

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  • Xin Yu
    replied
    I tried it once when playing with Ming, Rah, MWHC and two other players in a 2x production game. Ming and I were allies, Rah and MWHC were allies. In that game when I launched attack I had 20+ super iconclads. I had about 10 cities, all of size 20+ except for the Shakespear city, which was of size 5 (couldn't celebrate WLTKD due to supporting other units). I don't have any other happiness wonder. My experience is, in democracy, with large cities and marketplace/bank/trade routes, if you put at least 20% luxury and hire some entertainers, a city can support 3 unit without any problem (with the police station, 6). So I think first do trading and grow the citis till size 20+ (it makes sanitation a very important tech) then you can support a small to mid scaled war. Don't occupy your enemy's cities one by one, just kill his units to drain his resources (he must rush build more to protect his cities). Against AI this will delay the peace request, and against a human player this will prevent him to steal techs from you.

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