OCC 2003 Comparison Game #2

[solo]

Below are the set of rules from Paul's Guide, which is the standard. I think that for this game the size one settler trick is perfectly okay to use, because the Guide was never formally updated to prohibit its use. For future OCC games, I think it should be up to the person starting them to define any extra rules for their particular game.

(from Paul's OCC Strategy Guide)

1.2. RULES
You are allowed to settle one city. You are not allowed to settle more cities or to get cities through conquest or bribery. It is of course not allowed to access the cheat menu. It is also not allowed to reload a game to change anything that did not go as you wanted it to go. There is only one occasion where reloading is allowed which is explained in section 1.2.2 (advanced tribes).

1.2.1. GAME SETUP

A game must be started with the following options set: random map, raging hordes, 7 civilizations. You may also start a game by loading a one city comparison game. Results of comparison games will only be recognized if they are made at the first attempt on the game. See section 3 (comparison games) for more details.

1.2.2. ADVANCED TRIBES

If a goody hut results in an advanced tribe you should reload. The easiest way to handle this is to save the game just before you enter the hut. You can then just reload that save and enter the hut again. If you forget to save you may reload the autosave from the beginning of the turn. In that case you must move your units the same as the first time, you must handle all diplomatic contacts the same way as the first time, all battles must have the same outcome (not only the winner, but also the amount of damage) and any huts you entered before the one that gave the advanced tribe must also give the same results as the first time you played the turn.



1.3. COMPARISON GAMES
In order to be able to compare results of players in similar circumstances comparison games may be distributed. In order to prevent players from getting advantages by knowing the map and the other civilizations in the game results of comparison games will only be recognized if they are made at the first attempt. Results of second and later attempts at the same game will not be recognized.

1.3.1. COMPARISON GAME SETUP

A comparison game must be started with the same options as set in section 1.2.1 (game setup). The game may be saved in 4000 BC, but if you want to give players more equal circumstances from goody huts you may also save at a later year. In the second case the following restrictions apply: the game may not be saved later than 3000 BC, you may not yet have settled a city and you may not have made contact with other civilizations.

1.3.2. COMPARISON GAME DISTRIBUTION

A comparison game must be made available to all players who want to play it either by e-mail or by making it available for download from the internet. The existence of a comparison game must be published on the Apolyton Civ2 Strategy forum where you must also announce how players can get a copy of the comparison game. You can find some comparison games in section 3 (downloads) where you can also find my email address if you have a comparison game you want to make available for download from this site.



1.4. TRICKS AND CHEATS
Civilization II has some features that are not described in the manual. Some players consider the use of these features as cheating, others don't. We have had a vote among OCC players at Apolyton to decide how to deal with these features. This vote has resulted in the following results:

1.4.1. AIRBASES ON HILLS

Besides their official effects airbases also work as farmland and railroads. This gives players extra food on mined hills. The majority of the voters decided that it should NOT be allowed to build airbases on hills in the city radius.

1.4.2. "SUPERSTACK"

Bombers can only be attacked by (stealth) fighters. This means that if you let a bomber end its turn on the same square as one of your units that unit can't be attacked by other units except fighters. The majority of the voters decided that you may use this feature in OCC games.

1.4.3. MINING THE CITY SQUARE

If you build your city on a hill you can't mine that hill. However, if you start mining the hill and build a city on that hill before the mine is finished you can get a mine on the city square. The majority of the voters decided that you are allowed to mine your city square.

1.4.4. INCREMENTAL RUSHBUYING

Rushbuying a unit is cheaper if you first buy the cheapest unit you can build, then switch to the next cheapest, buy that and so on until you buy the unit that you wanted to build. This incremental rushbuying may be used in OCC games.

1.4.5. FOOD CARAVAN TRICK

It has recently been discovered that a city can use food caravans to set up food trade routes with itself. Using this trick it is also possible to get your city to grow in population even if you have a food shortage. It is not known exactly in what circumstances this will work and it may be version specific. This use of food caravans is NOT allowed in OCC games. You are of course still allowed to use caravans to help build wonders or to disband them to contribute to whatever you are building.

[duke o' york]

Could anyone bump, or even just link to, the thread with a summary of the rules decided for these OCC comparisons. I'm going to play it this weekend and would like to keep things above board, even if the Celts decide to wipe me off the globe through no fault of my own.

[solo]

There was not much discussion beyond that thread, which is why most players do not know (or remember) that Paul decided to ban the use of this trick in his subsequent fortnightly OCC comparison games.

[Straybow]

I didn't remember much discussion of the size1 settler technique.

[solo]

Grigor,

I thought of using the size one settler trick myself, but the OCC players discussed its use a few years back in the strategy forum and the consensus then was to no longer allow it in comparison games.

However, I guess it would be perfectly legit to use it in this game, which is being played by the standard set of rules. You did get off to a great start by using it. I did not reach Republic until 525 BC, which was long after you did.

I have bumped the relevant size one settler thread in the strategy forum in case you or others would like to check it.

[Grigor]

OnS:
I won't begin to criticize your late game, but in the beginning I think you missed a bet by not trying the Size 1 settler strategy. I was able to work the gold mine and build a settler in 3400 still size 1, then use it to mine the gold and the hidden special and finally fold it in to get to size 3 in 2800BC. I had Republican government in 1650, and Trade in 1300, so that was a pretty good start.

Of course, from that point I totally squandered it, and I was only a couple of techs ahead of you at 1AD.

[Old n Slow]

Looking for some RCC, I think that the lesser challenge will be to simply count the blunders.

On the other hand, I'm wondering if tech gifting is really great (some extreme jumps in my log are noted) or if one may also want to play some sort of power game -- can an OCC player nab enough None Units (do trucks count? (Dips/Spies?) I notice a drop off in the power graph as I cash in the trucks in the late/end game)

Although the tech change bounced a few hundred beaker's worth late in the game, it didn't mean much -- techs were coming every other turn regardless -- meaning the "cost" was a few coins (but by that time I was rather rich -- over 7K in coins. In the very late game, the techs were slowed to 1 per three turns, but after SF, one needs 20+ turns to build SS stuff anyway, so that speed isn't so critical.

Biggest blunder was the extra hut (wasn't burned by the first extra hut, but it only takes one) -- might have cost me a dozen turns.

2nd biggest blunder was to delay Apollo & the SS building -- I wanted some spies for defense of technology -- too careful there I think.

[Old n Slow]

4000BC, pop the hut, get a horse. found Mexico, begin researching Alpha (leave the options open for Republic should the off tech make sense…)
3950 switch the citizen from the whale to the gold.
3850 -- discover alpha, on to Code (cit back to whale)
3750 -- cit back to gold.
3550 -- discover code, opt for BW
3400 -- hut = archer.
3100 -- discover BW, opt for CB
2850 -- hut = Map (ARGH -- major delay for Monarchy!) should have waited for the last hut too, but didn’t recognize that.
2800 -- now at size 2
2700 -- silk available.
2550 -- switch to Colossus
2300 -- discover CB, opt for Write
1850 -- Peasant is now a buffalo
1400 -- discover Write, opt for Monarchy
1250 size = 3.
1150 -- meet the Germans (4 spears) trade map for myst & stop there (they have two more techs.)
875 BC -- complete Col. (start temple)
575 -- discover Mon, now size 4 & opt for Lit.
550 revolt -- Germans come to talk -- they now have one spear, & are receptive; hmmm methinks they have bad times elsewhere…they want 50 in coin (OK), now cordial, they ask Me for an Alliance! Duh, OK. How about a gift? Get my 50 coins back.
525 -- Monarchy. -- We think we’re behind so we desperately try something new -- toggle to 0.3.7 -- we love.
500 -- Buy a library
475 -- What a difference a few turns make. Was running 5 beakers per turn before the Colossus, 8 after up to about 5 turns ago. Fifteen Beakers due to Monarchy & the growth of another pop. Now we’re at 27 with We love & a library.
400 -- Lit -- onto Phil.
300 -- Complete a road to Berlin (trying Elephant’s great ploy)
250 -- Discover Phil, learn Republic, opt for Curr; revolt.
225BC, Republic (I feel that I’m still Waaaaay behind.)
175 -- We love ends at size 5.
150 -- Get Sea from a hut; trade away Phil & Rep to the Germs & get Mas, WC & 100 coins.
(50 BC -- My Settler, helping Berlin with roads & irrigation is now hemmed in.)
1 AD -- discover currency; opt for Trade.
20 AD -- need 323 beakers, collect 30 on the turn, toggle to 1.1.8; buy a market.
180 -- meet the Romans, give away Phil & Myst & get IW.; (Americans are now three turns towards MPE.)
200 -- get 50 from the Germs.
220 -- discover Trade -- opt for Con 1
260 -- first camel completed (silver) now at size 6
280 (Settler now on way home) now at size 7
300 -- PRB another camel -- treasury down to 11 coins.
360 -- Aerks build Marco’s (Rats.)
380 -- Harbor sold for 60 coins (Rats again.)
400 -- Silver Camel (d) to Leipzig nets 215 coins (1st trade route)
420 -- Discover con1, opt for Math
460 -- Silk Camel (d) to Leipzig nets 276 (2nd trade route)
480 -- Gold Camel to Berlin (n) nets 76 of fun & profit (3rd trade route.), size = 8
500 -- discover math, opt for Med; need about 600 beakers, am getting 67 per turn. (Germans have no spears? I’m not on bottom?)
620 -- Dye (d) to Hamburg (Roman -- 5 spears) nets 208
640 -- Discover Med, opt for Astro (660 beakers required.)
720 -- Wine (d) to Hamburg = 270
760 -- Discover Astro, opt for Uni
800 -- Complete Shakes.
840 -- Complete aqueduct, give away Astro, get Bank & 50 from Germs, who start Copes.
860 -- Size = 9; Romans (who have GL) start Copes
880 -- Size = 10
900 -- Size = 11, toggle to 6.3.1 -- Romans discover Uni, but they won’t talk to us
920 -- Size = 12
940 -- Sell Temple (of all the mistakes, this may be the smallest so far.)
1020 -- Complete Copes (Germans & Romans abandon)
1060 -- RB a Bank, conversation gets Uni (switch research to BB) Wine (d) to Hamburg nets 404
1080 -- Discover BB, opt for TG; give Uni, BB to Germs for 25
1160 -- buy a University
1180 -- Discover TG, opt for Nav
1260 -- Discover Nav, opt for Phy -- trade for Romans & get Eng.
1280 -- Meet the Americans (6 Arrows) as they land on our shore with a settler & cat; Give away Nav, Astro, Uni, Get a Map, Inv & Alliance (if we give Uni Again -- no problemo there.) Buy the Amerk boat for our first sea going vessel. Wool to Berlin = 112
1340 -- Discover Phy, opt for Dem.
1380 -- Embassy with England.
1400 -- Buy a barb Crux (None)
1420 -- Americans discover Dem, (we trade Phy for their tech & switch to San; establish embassy with Americans.)
1440 -- Discover San, on to Mag. Deliver gold camel to the only location demanding it, New Orleans (for 87 coins -- not too bad for something 4 spaces away), the new American city that is now our Very Close Neighbor.
1460 -- Dye (d) to York = 232
1510 -- trade away San for Feud & 50 with Germans.
1520 -- Discover Mag, opt for Chem. RB towards Sewer.
1540 -- Size = 13, trade away Mag for Gun & 125 from Amerks (give Phy to Germs.)
1580 -- Buy Harbor, size = 17
1590 -- Discover Chem, opt for Exp (size = 18)
1610 -- Dye (d) to Atl = 684, size = 20.
1620 -- Discover Exp, opt for Metal, size = 21 (max for now) Gold (n) to Atl = 406
1650 -- Discover Metal, opt for Steam; Revolt
1660 -- Democracy build Eng 1; Give Exp to Amerks, get 200
1670 -- Build Eng 2, we love a bit
1700 -- Discover Steam, opt for Elec 1; back to size 21.
1730 -- Build Stock Ex (Rome first discovered this in 1560, we picked it up somewhere along the line.)
1740 -- Discover Elec 1, opt for Ref 1; gift of 100 from Germs.
1750 -- Amerks discover RR, trade that & 100 to us for Metal
1752 -- Complete Isaac Newton; give RR to Germs & get 100
1756 -- Discover Ref 1, opt for Con 2. need 1380 beakers can get 738 per turn with 0.0.10
1758 -- Gems to Atl (d) for 844 -- now all of my trade routes are with Atl.
1760 -- Discover Con 2, opt for Ind. Now need 1410 beakers.
1764 -- Amerks come to talk -- we get 100
1766 -- They talk again (trying to trage Poly; we decline, give them Elec & get 200)
1768 -- Discover Corp, opt for Elec2 (1470 beakers needed) (Mt is now a hill)
1774 Elec2
1780 Steel
1786 AT
1792 Ref2 -- “forced” to opt for Chiv; trade Elec2 for chiv, then change to Comb next turn.
1800 Comb
1806 Auto (1736 beakers needed)
1808 -- Buy a super highway (trade routes at max, 25 each)
1810 MP
1812 -- Do a little We Lovin’
1816 NF
1822 -- Leadership
1824 -- Complete Darwin’s, get Tactics & MT (Romans complete Leadership!)
1830 NP
1832 -- size = 27, nab our first Barb Leader
1834 -- Discover Mini; 2079 beakers required for next advance
1836 -- Deliver silk to NY for 1386
1838 -- Discover Computer (2112 beakers required) deliver oil (n) to Wash for 747
1842 -- Discover Mobil Warfare. (What?? Only 1690 beakers required? Hey We’re MODERATE!!!!! in power Wow! Toggle to enjoy the benefit.)
1844 -- Back to Inadequate and no matter what we do, we’ll lose a turn of research -- (2145 beakers required.)
1848 Robotics (need 2310b)
1851 Laser (need 2345b)
1853 Flight (Hmmm trade routes fall to 21 each)
1855 Radio deliver dye (n) = 864, silk (d) = 1296 to Bang
1856 AF (“forced” to research Commy -- talk to Amerks & trade for the tech, get 150, then talk to them on their turn & get another 150
1859 Rocketry (back to Moderate power again, but choose not to toggle the science away)
1860 Build a Manufacturing plant
1861 Space Flight (back to Inadequate -- beaker jump was 1872 to 2628.)
1862 buy an Airport
1865 Recyc (cut too fine a line for science & lost yet another turn of research
1867 Complete Apollo
1868 Learn ESP; SS#1; an SS per turn for the next few turns.
1869 Give Corp to Amer, get 200 (I’m not initiating these conversations, but instead choose to talk to maintain the alliance as long as possible -- no trades if I can avoid it.)
1871 Env (I want to avoid the pollution & the risk of dropping shields at the wrong time below the magic 80/turn
1874 Plastics (“forced’ to opt for GW -- talk to Romans & swap SF for GW) -- It happened -- pollution hit, have 70+ shields towards a SS part -- so we switch & buy a solar plant.
1875 complete SS#7
1877 Superconductor
1880 FP -- toggle down to 4.0.6 -- actually we have a reasonable amount of cash (over 4K, but we don’t need science that much either.
1884 Labor
1888 Stealth
1889 -- The Americans want Super (No) they cancel the alliance. Hmmm I’m defended by an Archer, Crux, a dip & a bunch of trucks -- Have 15 SS parts & 6 SC parts.
1890 Build a Stealth fighter -- better to be a little safer, I think.
1891 SM 1
1892 FT1, SM 2, Amerks sneak attack, three trucks die (having some extra food trucks surrounding the city has blocked a number of dips from “visiting” an Ameriacn Bomber dies due to the Stealth Fighter defense. hey the Germans come to our aid!
1893, SM3, LAUNCH
Next 15 turns, discover a few more techs, deliver some underwhelming freight payoffs locally, blast away numbers of American units (there are four of their cities on my “lands”), but the Germans never step in…Germans end the alliance as well. Four Roman dips land, talk about alliance, but we choose not to go to war with the Babylonians
1908 Land on AC.

Score = 290, Montezuma the Cruel, 37%, Pop = 3.78M

[Straybow]

It seemed to escape me that the essential feature of an OCC is that you only have OC.

Conquering cities after launch is not strictly forbidden, at least the way we did these challenges before.

[duke o' york]

That depends upon how much you want to spend and how many shields you get per turn.

Sorry about the general comment - it wasn't addressed to anyone I'm afraid.

Can you not mention importatn things like which direction other civs are in please - I have to wait until 10th October before I can get my teeth into this one.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by duke o' york
Maybe you shouldn't have popped all those huts at the start?

I sometimes build a dip if I'm pushed for time to build a wonder, have enough caravans ready to complete it and am just waiting for the tech. The extra turns it would take to build (well, rushbuild) an extra caravan could mean losing out on the wonder.

I'm not sure who this comment was addressed to. In my game I didn't pop very many huts. By the time I got a unit passed Berlin, all of the huts in that direction had been popped and I never built a sea going unit.

As far as building a dip while waiting for the tech needed for a wonder is concerned - surely it takes the same number of turns to rush build a dip as it does to rush build a van. It just costs more money.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Grigor]

In this game I chose Writing as my off-tech, but then traded for CB when I found the Germans, which made Monarchy unavailable. So I took Literacy instead and early Republic, thus getting Writing way before Trade.

[duke o' york]

If you're in the bizarre position of having Writing before Trade then I suppose you could have been using the dip-as-van technique, but if this is the case then something has gone very wrong with your tech path. Maybe you shouldn't have popped all those huts at the start?

I sometimes build a dip if I'm pushed for time to build a wonder, have enough caravans ready to complete it and am just waiting for the tech. The extra turns it would take to build (well, rushbuild) an extra caravan could mean losing out on the wonder.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by duke o' york
I'm not suggesting that you should build a dip or spy, but rather that you have one in your city all the time in case one of the neighbouring civs gets mardy.

That's a good point. I'm afraid the early landing games have got me into the habit of only building the diplo as the need arises. I should have changed the strategy for OCC.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Specialist290]

I might try it. Not only will it be my first OCC Comp. game here, but it'll also be my first serious attempt at Deity level for any Civ2 game...