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  • RoadRash
    replied
    "Energy is much more flexible and thats the key. "
    -- Mostly I agree. Eventually you get more energy than you can spend. But for me this doesn't happen until the last few turns. Until then the extra minerals are very helpful.
    Besides, rush-building every single improvement means a lot of mind-numbing mouse clicks if you ask me.

    "Your 140 mineral bases are wasting resources every time they build a 60 mineral facility or unit . "
    -- True but I think I come out ahead anyway. The energy cost of rush-building a 60-mineral facility from scratch is going to be much higher than the 80 wasted minerals.
    Also, by the time my base has 140+ minerals, it's built every possible facility except for punishment spheres and factories. I also redesign my units (especially crawlers) to take full advantage of the extra minerals.

    "While you can stockpile to make cash, you can never turn those minerals to science. "
    -- Very true. Which is why I eventually build a full complement of energy satellites. And those satellites go up twice as fast since I've maxed out on mining satellites..

    "Sure you can build some souped up behemoth of a unit but quite frankly, I consider them a waste as well."
    -- Admittedly, I build them for the fun factor. It also depends on whether I'm playing for conquest or transcendence. Nothing can mop up those stupid sea bases like anti-grav gunships.

    "Focussing on energy I find that TFs and HFs are usually sufficient to manage ecodamage with the OCCASIONAL addditional eco facility in my one or two high mineral bases."
    -- This is mostly true for me as well.... until I build the mineral boosting SPs late in the game.


    Question: Are satellite resources tacked onto the totals, or do they first get pumped through the improvements? For example, does satellite energy actually get fed into the research hospital, and then split into research/happiness/energy? Or does satellite energy simply get tacked onto net energy output?

    Likewise, do satellite minerals get multiplied up through base facilities such as factories?

    Leave a comment:


  • Flubber
    replied
    Originally posted by Santiago_Clause
    When you build VoP you get fungus pops without native lifeforms in them, but I think that's a one-time effect.

    VoP is a strange one: on the plus side you become largely immune to ecodamage, both because native lifeforms stop attacking you and because fungus is both unaffected by global warming and by that time worth a fortune. On the downside, all the prices for buildings double, and perhaps worst of all, every other faction gains AtoT as a build option and thus the potential to win the game from a single build.


    My solution is simple-- I start the VoP in two places-- rush it in one place and then rush the ascent on the following turn. The effects are irrelevant and this is the only way to do it in multiplayer since if you delayed even one turn, someone else would build the ascent and steal the game.

    Its easy to pre-start two bases on building Secret Projects before the tech for VoP is acquired. There are tons of SPs that come so late that they are hardly worth building so just start one of them and transfer production when you get the tech.

    You are correct though that there is some fungal blooms when the VoP is built . . if you read the interlude it mentions that the worms are now leaving you alone ( probably because you are talking to them. I am curious what would happen if you did delay the ascent and tossed a bunch of PBs-- would the worms attack after the Voice is built ??

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  • Flubber
    replied
    Originally posted by RoadRash

    Observation: Mining satellites are more efficient than energy satellites, for increasing production.
    I disagree. Energy is much more flexible and thats the key. Your 140 mineral bases are wasting resources every time they build a 60 mineral facility or unit . While you can stockpile to make cash, you can never turn those minerals to science. Sure you can build some souped up behemoth of a unit but quite frankly, I consider them a waste as well.

    Science is the driver in the late game and I would much rather put resources into getting a second, or third tech per turn. Late game I am often going 100% science and still have more cash sitting around than I can spend from specialists and bases that are stockpiling because they have nothing else to build of any use..


    Also, most of my bases are probably building yet another crawler or trawler to bring in even more energy and they easily finish one per turn without rushing . Our starategies are probably different but when the bulk of MY builds are units that cost 30 minerals, 140 mineral bases seem like overkill.

    If we played, you might thrash me, I have no idea as to your skills . . . But I do believe that your startegy is less efficient. Imagine all the temples and centauri preserves a player focussing on energy does NOT have to build (or pay maintenance on)-- Focussing on energu I find that TFs and HFs are usually sufficient to manage ecodamage with the OCCASIONAL addditional eco facility in my one or two high mineral bases.

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  • Santiago_Clause
    replied
    When you build VoP you get fungus pops without native lifeforms in them, but I think that's a one-time effect.

    VoP is a strange one: on the plus side you become largely immune to ecodamage, both because native lifeforms stop attacking you and because fungus is both unaffected by global warming and by that time worth a fortune. On the downside, all the prices for buildings double, and perhaps worst of all, every other faction gains AtoT as a build option and thus the potential to win the game from a single build.

    It might be interesting to build VoP then go on a nuclear rampage, watching the locusts buzz harmlessly about next turn, but most people like to build VoP the turn before building AtoT.

    @RoadRash:
    Terraforming up/down might cause a few deserts, but it doesn't cause eco damage.

    Leave a comment:


  • RoadRash
    replied
    Does terraforming UP/DN cause ecodamage?

    Leave a comment:


  • Mr. Harley
    replied
    Their are four ways people tend to max out their eco damage. Atrocities when the UN sanctions are NOT repealed. The +2 mineral secret project, The Bulk Matter Transmitter, does this because by that time you have various multiplying facilities, so this typically increases production at least +4, sometimes +8 per base. ECO DAMAGE USES TOTAL MINERAL PRODUCTION IN THE FORMULA. Thus you have a massive increase in the baseline, and get a much bigger "bang" for you buck, as it were. This also holds true for the Singularity Inductor. Increasing all you bases' mineral production increases both the baseline total minerals and the amount per base by 50% base mineral production. There is slightly offset due to some plus ecological factors for the Singularity Inductor, but it's still a massive hit. Secrets of the Manifolds in SMAX can produce a similar effect, especially if you still have alot of fungus about, for example if you are playing the Gaians.

    Lastly, as you rush towards transcendence, in the late game when you are churning out one/two technologies a turn, the fungus can become the most productive square around. If you are not careful, and I've had this nail me as the Gaians, you can suddenly have bases whose mineral production is so high, especially in SMAX, that you either do ecodamage or starve citizens (if you don't have enough hydro satellites up). Plus, all the bases after (in the production queu) the one that completes the mineral tech will produce the eco-damage before you shift the specialists. If you have the cloning vats, each new citizen will go to the fungus, and with late game 4 mineral productiuon accross dozens of bases (increased by base facilities typicall to 8+), each turn you do scads of eco-damage.

    The trick for the population increase is to keep putting citizens to work, till the last one starts causing eco-damage. Then take that one, and ONE MORE, into specialist status. That way barring SP or Techs, you at least won't have turn to turn ecodamage. For the techs and two SP's you have to do some fancy figuring

    Leave a comment:


  • RoadRash
    replied
    In my latest game, I built max preserves, temples, etc etc in every city. Nearly all of it was built after the first pop. Yet just before Transcendence I had at least 7-50 ecodamage in each base.

    Most bases were cranking out 140+ minerals per turn. At that rate, most improvements can be completed in 1 turn without rushing. Also, extravagant weapon systems can be built with ease.

    Observation: Mining satellites are more efficient than energy satellites, for increasing production.

    Newer bases had 40+ ecodamage and experienced pops every turn. Strangely, very few of those pops actually produced worms. Was it because I had planted fungus all around, and the worms found nothing to destroy? Or was it my +3 planet rating?

    Leave a comment:


  • Skanky Burns
    replied
    I generally build large number of centauri preserves after the first >pop< so I have a large amount of free minerals before any eco damage occurs.

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  • RoadRash
    replied
    Originally posted by Flubber
    1. My belief that having massive mineral production is a waste ( even if completely clean)-- With enough energy and specialists you can rush everything anyway.
    True but this lowers your energy score.

    My experiences with massive end-game worms are due entirely to a single Secret Project: the one giving +2 minerals per base. It seems preposterous that those two extra minerals would cause 30+ worms per base. But it happens to me every time.

    I'm starting to wonder if those 2 minerals are added in a wierd way that skews the normal ecodamage calculations.

    Leave a comment:


  • Flubber
    replied
    Originally posted by starfish


    I thought that I'd read somewhere that mineral satellites didn't contribute to eco-damage - I don't see any reference to them in either the Datalinks' Ecology section or Ned's eco-damage write-up. Am I missing something?
    Nope-- my comment was based on:

    1. My belief that having massive mineral production is a waste ( even if completely clean)-- With enough energy and specialists you can rush everything anyway.

    2. MY own preference for food and energy satellites combined with specialists as a way to drive research. You can work a few less tiles and produce a few less minerals and avoid ecodamage if you wish

    Leave a comment:


  • Sikander
    replied
    Originally posted by Chaos Theory
    Artillery should be able to destroy the vast majority of native life in any given tile. Towards the end game, keeping 3 SAM string artillery in each base for worm defense seems entirely reasonable. One unit taking on 50 demon boil mindworms is hardly guaranteed to lose since collateral damage against native life is total. On the other hand, locusts of chiron do not suffer collateral damage, so you need artillery to blast them to pieces.

    A base could be reduced to size 8 from 25 by 17 locusts. Each native life unit that enters an empty base of yours blows up one building and kills a population unit.

    For what it's worth, I find that in the late game, Planned and Green give me more ecodamage than FM. The reason is that by that time fungus tiles are producing 2 or 3 minerals, so that if I run non-FM, I can work those tiles and produce plenty of minerals. What happens to me is that each pop makes the next more likely until the planet floods.
    When large stacks of native life appear it sometimes pays to self destruct a high attack value unit next to the native stack to destroy it. Copters or needles are great for this, as they have plenty of movement to get into position and can fly over sea squares with no problems.

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  • starfish
    replied
    MY advice-- stop the mineral satellites and just put up more and more energy ones. Also consider a few food sats and specialists.


    I thought that I'd read somewhere that mineral satellites didn't contribute to eco-damage - I don't see any reference to them in either the Datalinks' Ecology section or Ned's eco-damage write-up. Am I missing something?

    Leave a comment:


  • Flubber
    replied
    Originally posted by johndmuller
    Roadrash, sounds like you are too clean for your own good.
    .

    I agree with Johnd, you must not have ensured a mineral pop before building the eco-facilities.

    Assuming clean minerals at 16, you can trigger say 4 pops. and then lets assume a dozen bases with a treefarm and a HF, bringing you to 44 clean minerals.

    Why anyone would need more than that in a base in the late game ( when sats can feed and specialists and energy are abundant) would be beyond me.


    MY advice-- stop the mineral satellites and just put up more and more energy ones. Also consider a few food sats and specialists.

    Other than that . . . make sure to cause a fungal bloom early so that all your eco-facilities have their full effect. Building them before the bloom is crippling their effect

    Leave a comment:


  • johndmuller
    replied
    Roadrash, sounds like you are too clean for your own good.

    I didn't see any references in your post to the usual methods people use to allow for hign min production without the high ecodamage; perhaps you are following that approach and are just producing humongous quantities of mins, but I'm guessing that you have minimized the ecodamage in the early/mid game and built most of the potential ecodamage-reducing facilities before getting your first >pop<. If so, the solution would have been to have been to force a >pop< before building your TFs, HFs, CPs, etc. (or to have delayed them until after the first >pop<) in order for them to have the beneficial effect on ecodamage.

    As to why it happens all of a sudden, whether or not you have mitigated the ecodamage as above, it is likely the formula expressing itself - it has some factors like your number-of-techs that get pretty high as the game goes on, so once it crosses over into positive ecodamage, each extra min will get multiplied pretty heavily.

    Leave a comment:


  • RoadRash
    replied
    Originally posted by Starfarer
    ...My God, Franky, do you have triple-digit eco-damage or something? I mean... ouch. What are you DOING do that poor planet? I've NEVER had any fungal bloom with more than about five worms of middle-to-high lifecycle at best earlier than when I start getting close enough to Transcendance....
    When I get close to Transcendance, sometimes I get major worm hordes that make Franky's situation look positively tame.

    My outbreaks are late-game surprises. I have a decent planet rating, and all my terrain has been converted to forests. Furthermore, I have zero improvements that boost minerals (not counting recycling tanks.) I've committed no atrocities and launched no planet busters etc etc.

    Yet quite suddenly, about 10 cities per turn experience fungal blooms with 30-50 demon boils per square. I'm not kidding. Yet sometimes my planet rating is so high that I actually capture 30+ worms at a stroke. Unhappily this can cause the spontaneous disbanding of expensive units supported by the city.

    Sometimes, I'll deviously walk these captured worms into my ally's back yard, then release them "into the wild".

    What triggers these ridiculous outbreaks?
    - Start with enormous cities surrounded by forests, which produce alot of minerals.
    - Add certain late-game Secret Projects, and tons of mining satellites, to further boost mineral production.

    To add insult to injury.... at this point in the game, fungus generates more minerals than forests, so each outbreak makes the situation even worse.

    I got so sick of this crap that I tweaked the game to reduce the rate of global warming.

    Leave a comment:

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