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How, exactly, does one "overpay" construction costs for rush-building?

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  • UnityScoutChopper
    replied
    Thank you, john, for testing that, as I was curious about the odd assertion that you could get carryover greater than production if production was <10, but too lazy to test it. I kept thinking, as they say in alt.games.rec.adom, "someone should research that!"

    USC

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  • johndmuller
    replied
    Originally posted by Mongoose
    . . . .
    The only times that overpaying pays are -
    1) If you expect occupation . . . . (min production decline)
    2) If the base is producing less than 10 mins. In that case, to get the maximum effect, overpay by (10 - P) minerals where P= the base's mineral production.
    . . . .
    I'm unsure exactly what you are saying here Mong - according to how 'overpay' translates from moment to moment, but it is my understanding that the most you can carry forward is the lesser of 10 or the bases current min production, which you might also be saying, so let me put in some numbers to remove the semantic obstacles.

    For example:
    • Base produces 6 mins per turn
    • The (facility) build costs 30 mins
    • 10 mins have been accumulated (so the progress display shows 10 solid boxes, 6 partially shaded boxes and 14 empty boxes)
    • The "Hurry" button quotes you a cost of 40 ec to complete the build

    Under these circumstances, it is my belief that paying the 40 will finish the build and give you a carryforward of 6 mins the following turn; likewise, paying 12 less, or 28 mins will finish the build and have a carryforward of zero the following turn.

    Paying more than the 40 (which can be done as a 'partial' payment) will not increase the amount of carryforward beyond the current min production amount. In other words, if you paid 48 in hopes of getting a carryforward of 10, you would be disappointed to get only the same 6 carried forward.

    When I first saw this post I flashed on the possibility that you were saying that one could pay to get up to the 10 carryforward level (something that I was presuming that I had tried to no avail a long time ago - but what if I hadn't, oh no!), so I tested it out and satisfied myself that (at least in my copy of SMAC v4 Windows) one merely gets red boxes in the display and wastes the extra money. I would be most interested if that is not the case for SMAX v2 Win or other versions of the program.

    As to how this interacts with possible unplanned loss of min production in the following turn (due to unfriendlly units in your tile, loss of min crawlers, terrain alteration, or whatever), I am not completely certain. I have been known to pay a few extra (later in the game when I feel flush) beyond what is necessary to get the 10 carryforward as a contingency to ameliorate such potential loss so as to lower the risk of being unable to rush again without that onerous double cost penalty - but these excess payments are still within the amount that the game suggests for completing the build (i.e. the base production is above 10) and the red boxes do not appear. In that case, I think that the excess payment works (IIRC) to mitigate the damage; however, when attempting to pay beyond the maximum allowed by your production, my guess is that the game eats your excess payment right away and does not apply any of it to use for min-shortfall amelioration if needed the next turn, adding the proverbial insult to injury.

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  • joncnunn
    replied
    YES!

    Industry directly affects the mineral cost of everything. Any change on that setting is effective instantly. +/- multiples of 10%

    Support rating also affects how much minerals is adviable for construction. Any change in cost to support units is effective instantly, but the change in free minerals when a base is founded isn't effective until the following turn.

    Free minerals when a base is founded is -1 or higher.

    As for support costs:

    -4 = double support costs.
    -3 = no free units
    -2 & -1 = 1 free
    0 = 2 free
    1 = 3
    2 = 4
    3 = Math.max(4, basesize)

    And the Economy & Efficency settings will help determine your income which along with percentage going into energy heavily influences how much rushing you can afford.

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  • :) Smiley
    replied
    Do your SE settings have any effect, much in the way a high support level gives you free minerals when you build a base?

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  • joncnunn
    replied
    I also note that if your base has worked tiles within three tiles of an adjoining base ahead of it in the base resolution order that has eco damage > 0, it may be wise to partual pay enough past the mininum that even if fungus booms on the most productive tile, your structure will still complete. (Rather than being 1 mineral short)

    If your building a normal structure and have a military unit or secret project next in the queue line, it's also an especeally good idea to partual pay enough to have ten completed.

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  • Adalbertus
    replied
    To my experience, overpaying never gives you any extra mineral. Rubin is right, all red minerals will be lost (sometimes with SMAX V2.0, it's displayed wrong: Having +2 Industry, 0 Support, I have a new found bases with eight white and three red boxes). There is no way to get 10 minerals in the year after completion of a build unless your base is able to produce them. The few minerals carried over were produced in the same turn.

    The algorithm seems to work as follow:
    (x minerals accumulated, b to finish build, m newly produced)
    if x>b then x := b
    x := x + m
    if (x>=b) then {
    finish build
    x := x - b
    if x>10 then x := 10
    }
    The only way to profit of a partial payment is to pay less if your base produces more than 10 mins, or to pay exactly as much as necessary to have 10 mins completed next turn (and rush cheaper then).

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  • Rubin
    replied
    When the mineral rows are colored red, i.e. exceeding the cost of a unit/facility, all these red ones are lost, right? I can't have my newly founded bases overpaying (I tried to hurry using 500 EC's!!!) the initial scout patrol and have a full row of minerals on the next turn. Usually only 2-3 minerals are carried over.

    Am I missing something? I tried in SMACX v2 and SMAC v5...

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  • Udelar
    replied
    That's it exactly. Thanks.

    Udelar

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  • Mongoose
    replied
    You can NEVER carry forward more than 10 minerals.

    If your base is producing in excess of 10 mins, you will have waste even if you simply rush to completion.

    If your base is producing exactly 10 mins, rushing to completion will leave the maximum 10 mineral carryforward for the next turn.

    The only times that overpaying pays are -

    1) If you expect occupation of one or more of your worked tiles (or destruction of one or more of your mineral crawlers) that would lower your realized mineral production below the nominal level.

    2) If the base is producing less than 10 mins. In that case, to get the maximum effect, overpay by (10 - P) minerals where P= the base's mineral production.

    The main benefit to the overpayment play is to permit additional rush buying in the next turn at a lower cost than would be otherwise. For example, facilities cost 2ec/mineral to rush build if you already have 10 minerals accumulated. If your accumulated minerals are fewer than 10, the cost to rush doubles, to four ec/min.

    The per mineral cost of rushing units will vary with the number of minerals required to complete construction, but that cost will double (as in the case with facilities) if there are fewer than 10 mins. accumulated.

    Hope this is what you wanted.

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  • How, exactly, does one "overpay" construction costs for rush-building?

    No matter what, it seems that my bases lose the extra minerals whenever they finish their current build. I click the "Rush Build" option, then click on "Make Partial Payment" and put in an amount greater than the cost shown to rush the item. However, when I go into the base next turn, all of the extra minerals are gone. This happens regardless of whether I set the next item in the queue up the preceding turn. So, can anyone give me a step-by-step for how this is done?

    Udelar
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