The Vintage Decade (2140 - 2149) - Musings

[Maniac]

I must say I'm too wondering just like Krysia's Krusader and Kassiopeia if we aren't taking things a bit too far. I don't really understand our current foreign policy: first we offer them (hopefully) good trades, but then next we pull a in their eyes bizarre stunt like with Snoddasmannen & the Gaians, and now Googlie & the Morganites. While these intrigues are of course fun, won't they seriously reduce our chance to ever sign a pact with those factions if we take them too far? Even if we plan to attack Morgan right after Zal/Lal as Googlie suggests and have no plans right now to ever sign a pact, I guess it's always a good idea to keep our options open, as you never know how the situation with other factions will evolve - eg now already we've had to change our plans regarding who to attack and pact with a few times.

Originally posted by Googlie
The next step will be to throw overboard that Morgan Observer (forfeiting the income they're whingeing about anyway)

In fact, let's do that next turn (which Maniac should play - or I can if it's here before I leave on the 27th, but Maniac should post). Send them back the 4 ec's and don't give a map of the Hunter. Then they'll think we're planning an invasion !!!

That would be breaking a clear agreement though, and they'll never trust us again! If we want to get rid of the observer, we could always arrange the following: After the current treaty expires, suggest a renegotiation of the commerce division under the rule that we only get half of the commerce they don't lose to inefficiency (at this stage the difference can only be 1 credit AFAIK - they can't have that much inefficiency), complying to their complaint. But as compensation the Morganite observer is thrown off the SCC Hunter.

[Googlie]

It's pissing down rain here in Vancouver, and is forecast to last all weekend, so I'll have lots of RL time on my hands to live in the "OtherWorld" of Chiron.

I'll prep a series of Covert-ops reports for the 3 factions and post them in their respective threads, going as deep as I can into my thoughts on pacts with them, wars, threats, oportunities, etc.

Much of it will be stuff that's been posted elsewhere and be summarized or maybe restated, and some (hopefully) will be original.

I happen to think that the shifting sands of our (public-face) foreign policy adds spice and drama, and while it might put a tinge of "fear" into others' minds (Morgan and the Gaians) it might also encourage them to go for a Pact on "Sparta-favorable" terms (they get infiltration that way - better the devil they know than the one they don't)

As an example, look how quickly Mead responded in the Embassy re our threat/suggestion to reduce from Treaty to Truce

(And we haven't even begun to sabre-rattle yet)

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Googlie
As an example, look how quickly Mead responded in the Embassy re our threat/suggestion to reduce from Treaty to Truce

That was indeed a pleasant surprise.
A risk is of course they're only caving in right now because we're the only faction they've met until now, and that their attitude towards us might change the moment they meet other humans.

[KrysiasKrusader]

I concur with post #3377063.

[Kassiopeia]

Yes. We have to be careful on this, as like Maniac said, you never know who you're going to be needing to ally with next. I'd say the Gaian front is looking better now, the only real negative thing we pulled off there was Case Snoddasmannen and that is now relatively speaking ancient history.

I suppose it's *fairly* likely that we won't be allying with Morgan after all, with the threat he'll be. But then, we can't be completely sure. I think throwing out the observer would be too much, just keep him there and keep the money flowing.

To those who were in ACDG2 - how did you lay out your diplomatic strategy? Was it a similar tangle of threads (both literally and figuratively speaking)?

[Googlie]

As one who saw them all as CMN, I can respond with my impressions

The Uni were run by Archaic like a dictatorship - very little discussion, occasional input from a couple but pretty much played by Archaic as almost a single-player PBEM

The Drones - over at CGN - jad some discussions every year in their preturn. So every year was a "miniforum" unto itself, with everythign being covered in that one thread - builds, moves, trade offers and responses.

But they did have a separate, private forum for the Hive-Drone "Embassy", where strategy was thrashed out with input from key players in both factions (Buster and jtsisyoda from the Drones and Kody and HongHu from the Hive were the principals on each side)

PEACE pretty much were set up as we are, with separate threads for faction interaction discussions, and other threads for strategy such as tech stream, SP choices, etc etc

CyCon were pretty much the same, with threads such as "The war agaisnt PEACE", where battle tactics and invasion plans were thrashed out, etc

But even with these latter two being somewhat similarly laid out to us, I don't recall that same level of activity that we have. We all seem to be posting several times each day on most topics (look how many of them are into pages 5, 6 etc). I recall last game, as CMN monitoring activity, logging in for a session and quickly moving thru all 4 factions 'cos there was nothing new from since the day before.

(Fat chance of that happening here, no?)

But ours is messy - and I'm guilty of contributing to that mess. I'll open a thread, see something that I want to reply to, then verbal vomit takes over and before we know it there's maybe a new policy intitiative towards, say, the Gaians being expounded on in the Morgan thread

(That's why this morning, with time on my hands, I pulled the strategy items and packaged them apart from the trade discussions)

Any ideas of a more efficient lay-out is welcome

[Googlie]

Originally posted by KrysiasKrusader
I concur with post #3377063.

That's why you're still a Captain - or Kapitan - while I'm washing the floors at the Military Museum down the street

[KrysiasKrusader]

yea, well; I'm guilty of spewing stuff out in every thread too. That's cause there's stuff to talk about in every thread.


Maybe if we each start our own threads - and only talk in those?

[Kassiopeia]

Ah, the layout was making me think too. I myself have no problem with it, since I read any new posts anyway and can decipher the whole picture from them, but think about a new recruit. They'll have absolutely no idea of what to read to catch up, the forum will look like a chaotic mess, as will the actual threads.

That's why I was thinking of writing a succinct description of our current situation (with links to posts and threads as needed), a sort of index, that will both help new people get the hang of things and allow us to get a better control of the larger wholes these spread out posts form. This'd be a post in a separate topped thread (without discussion) which is updated periodically.

[Googlie]

The year is 2145, and the Spartan Federation has reached a crossroads as our society has taken root and prospered on Chiron.

Covert Operations reports indicates that among the 4 teams, Sparta has a lead in technology - indeed suspicions (but no hard infiltration data) are that the 3 other factions might currently be researching technologies which Sparta already posseses (perhaps with teh exception of Morgan Industries)

While the Hive has the lead in population, Morgan Industries lies second due to the recent completion of the Planetary Transit System that has caused a small population boom in their bases. Their population is almost double that of the Spartan Federation. The Data Angels and the Gaians each have populations about 2/3rds that of the Fedeartion (or, in other words, just over 1/3rd that of Morgan Industries)

The Federation is Treatied with all six other factions on Chiron.

We know that the Peacekeepers are researching High Energy Chemistry (designated by the Junta as one of the Federation's "must have" techs), so a probe operation will be launched to extract the blueprints from Lal's clutches within a few years.

The Hive has embarked on researching the Superconductor, and after that is only 2 techs away from Fusion Power (AMA and PSA)

Our dilemma is this:

• Do we engage in leapfrogs with Morgan and with the Angels-Gaian axis to further our technology (at the risk of bringing them up to par with us)?
• Do we choose one of the above groupings to run with for a period of years, ignoring the other?
• do we isolate ourselves, with our current tech lead, content to see the others research techs that we already have?
• Do we look to a combination of our own weak research and judicious pilfering of techs from the AI factions to ensure our technologiacl advances?
• Do we conquer Zak, then Lal, make them submissive, return their bases to them and use them as our reserach engine to counter Morgan and the Axis?
• At what point do we consider ourselves strong enough to risk vendetta with Yang and stealtech from him (recognizing that the Gaians, already in vendetta with the Hive, have no such compunctions)
• As we cannot, in all likelihood, win by Transcendence, nor Economically, how do we propose to do so (Diplomatically and Militarily being the other available routes)
• And whatever we choose, we will need to go to war to coerce a supporting vote for the former, or to conquer and eradicate if the latter. Who should be our target? And in what order?

We've covered these in similar discussions in other threads, but, as the preamble says, we are at somewhat of a threshold right now, and whatever we do in these next few turns will likely set our destiny in stone.

What are the Junta's thoughts?

[Snoddasmannen]

My ranty suggestion is that we conquer Zak/Lal, and give them back some of their bases. Zak will get us some great research and Lal will give us votes in the elections.

Having done that we need to pick a new target ... and it should be Morgan. Morgan with the PTS should not be left alone for too long, and anyway they should be a softer target than the other humans.

While we are slugging it out with the Morgans, we can only hope that the Gaian/Angel axis (I can't seem to find an abbrevation which doesn't sound offensive) are preouccupied with Yang or each other. When we are done with Morgan, we keep fighting the rest until we get enough votes to be supreme governor.

I don't think we should mess with Yang at all. He is fighting the Gaians, so let's not weaken him. And I don't think we want him at a vendetta with us, he'd just send needlejets to kill our formers and crawlers ... Very annoying I'm sure we can get our research from elsewhere.

If we want to piggy-back research, we should do it with the G/A's. Morgan is simply too powerful to cooperate that much with.

If we make the Morgans think that we'll take on the G/A's after we take over the AI's, they won't mess with us, cos they could probably win such a situation. Any chance of getting them to think that? Kass?

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Snoddasmannen
My ranty suggestion is that we conquer Zak/Lal, and give them back some of their bases. Zak will get us some great research and Lal will give us votes in the elections.

That's my current thinking. Zak is currently small enough - five or so largish bases - that a quick attack by elites on their HQ and one other should produce a submission. Lal is currently too far away to intervene effectively

Having done that we need to pick a new target ... and it should be Morgan. Morgan with the PTS should not be left alone for too long, and anyway they should be a softer target than the other humans.

Again (somewhat regreattble) I agree. Their getting the PTS - and going for the Ascetic Virtues - changes my view of them completely. We need to take them out before they get too strong defensively

While we are slugging it out with the Morgans, we can only hope that the Gaian/Angel axis (I can't seem to find an abbrevation which doesn't sound offensive) are preouccupied with Yang or each other. When we are done with Morgan, we keep fighting the rest until we get enough votes to be supreme governor.

I don't think we should mess with Yang at all. He is fighting the Gaians, so let's not weaken him. And I don't think we want him at a vendetta with us, he'd just send needlejets to kill our formers and crawlers ... Very annoying I'm sure we can get our research from elsewhere.

Do we surruptitiously help Yang? Not sure how if he won't trade with us, but maybe an odd gift of a unit to sweeten him first?

If we want to piggy-back research, we should do it with the G/A's. Morgan is simply too powerful to cooperate that much with.

A problem with leapfrog research with the GA's (see my comments in the Gaians post) is that we strengthen them as well as ourselves - after five or six years we'll (all 3) have the same techs. But maybe that's the price we need to pay to get to that position, 'cos we certainly can't get there ourselves right now. Of course, if we are successful in subjugating both Zak and Lal, then maybe our role is as their guardians and garrisons (while they pop boom and tech research)

If we make the Morgans think that we'll take on the G/A's after we take over the AI's, they won't mess with us, cos they could probably win such a situation. Any chance of getting them to think that? Kass?

We can certainly feed their paranoia!!

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Googlie [*]Do we engage in leapfrogs with Morgan and with the Angels-Gaian axis to further our technology (at the risk of bringing them up to par with us)?

The more the better I'd say. Of course with trade embargoes to ensure a new tech doesn't immediately flow over to our three rivals, and they don't come on par with us.

[*]Do we choose one of the above groupings to run with for a period of years, ignoring the other?[*]do we isolate ourselves, with our current tech lead, content to see the others research techs that we already have?

Could we not follow a middle road between these two options?

My fear is that if we isolate ourselves completely and cooperate not at all technologically, we'll see the other three factions cooperating and exchanging all their techs between each other to catch up with us.

And if we choose to go with one group, it would probably have to be the Morganites, as the Angels & Gaians don't seem very interested. But as you all point out, Morgan may be a bit too strong, and cooperating too much with him may give us harm on the longterm. And refusing to cooperate at all with the Gaians & Angels will drive them into each other's arms, while now there are signs they aren't that close. I'm referring to the Gaians cunningly acquiring AppPhys from the Angels, and us being able to sell Gene Splicing to the Angels despite the Angels also having it.

So why not continue with our current "middleman" role (until we possibly attack Morgan of course and the endgame starts) and proceed on a course of "opportune isolationism"? With that I mean NOT aligning us strongly with any group (isolationism) or give anyone lucrative trades in the others their advantage, but when a for us lucrative opportunity for cooperation presents, we do grab it with both hands, no matter what faction it is with.

This would have the advantage that we stay in touch with all factions, and can throw in no-trade embargoes in all techs we give, slowing down the other factions catching up with us, and preventing 3-to-1 cooperation. As Snoddasmannen suggests, we could also try to play out the Morganites and the Gaian-Angels against each other, or even the Gaians and Angels against each other from time to time, while we stay out of shot as the neutral third party.

[*]Do we conquer Zak, then Lal, make them submissive, return their bases to them and use them as our reserach engine to counter Morgan and the Axis?

Originally posted by Snoddasmannen
My ranty suggestion is that we conquer Zak/Lal, and give them back some of their bases. Zak will get us some great research and Lal will give us votes in the elections.

That's my current thinking. Zak is currently small enough - five or so largish bases - that a quick attack by elites on their HQ and one other should produce a submission.

If we capture The UoP's HQ, which would indeed be necessary for a submission, can the UoP still function as a worthy researcher? After all, he'll have tremendous inefficiency due to the lack of Headquarters.
Something else as a reminder just to keep in mind: gifting a base to an AI does not reduce the counter for the bureaucracy limit, meaning the game will think we'll have one more base than we actuallt have. This will give us more b-drones. That's not a problem at all as long as we don't use psych for drone control, but it could be if we'd ever change to free market (and thus can't rely anymore on police control).