How Supply and Demand Lists Are Determined

[Scouse Gits]

Originally posted by goape
Solo,
These forums truely are a wealth of knowledge.

Very true. Just when you think you know most of it - something else pops up.

When you are ready please join us in a succession game over on the Civ2 general forum. It seems very serious ... it's just big kids playing games really.

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SG(2)

[solo]

goape,

Don't forget to check out our Great Library, put together by Scouse Gits. Some of the best info about Civ II can be found there.

[goape]

Solo,

Thank you for the explanation. As I have said, I am not the worlds fastest learner but thanks for replying to my question anyway. With this knowledge on the inner workings of supply and demand I hope to improve my game plan significantly. These forums truely are a wealth of knowledge.

[Scouse Gits]

Originally posted by SCG
SCG switch has a nice ring to it

Yeah ... I like that too. Just shows that there are still things to learn.

BTW does the switch have an "off" position?

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SG(2)

[SCG]

SCG switch has a nice ring to it

for one last followup, here's the MGE screen

[solo]

SCG,

Yes, it's still a mystery why its dye rather than copper. I can not get it to happen to dye yet, so can not tell why.

However, I've also checked saves for other years, and it looks like you're right about this happening on city cycle turns. I also can not change back on turns that follow.

This is a nice piece of work by you, and it comes in time to be included in my EL guide, where you'll be credited with the discovery. Shall we immortalize this exploit as the "SCG switch"?

[SCG]

Originally posted by SCG
i think the various patches affect it. in my original post (above), I also got the copper, dye and hides. it may well have been from 1.07, which was what i played on a lot back then. however, I did not get any results with either Parkersburg or Fairmont with my MGE version.

has to be something else affecting it besides patches

[SCG]

Originally posted by solo
SCG,

I'm betting your screen shots from Parkersburg came while playing the game in MGE, since I get a different result with the same city using 2.42

It looks to me that with MGE, manipulating shields triggers the dye bug and in 2.42 it's copper instead. In all examples I've seen so far, the result is copper or dye in the #1 demand slot. I believe other changes are due to a movement of copper or dye. I already know that the dye bug affects the human cities in MGE and the AI cities in 2.42, and examples so far of shields <=0 correlate with this difference.
SCG,

attached is Parkersburg after 0 shields in 2.42:

Originally posted by SCG
While trying to maximize the bonus value on a gold caravan between 2 of my cities, i was moving around the workers in the destination city. When the destination city had resources available for production, it supplied beads, salt and dye and demanded hydes, wine and gold. However, when i started moving all the workers onto sea squares, production resources dropped to 0 and then deficit. When it hit 0, the trade commodities switched around to supplies beads, salt and wine, and demands copper, dyes and hydes. putting the workers back took it back to the original supply and demand.

i think the various patches affect it. in my original post (above), I also got the copper, dye and hides. it may well have been from 1.07, which was what i played on a lot back then. however, I did not get any results with either Parkersburg or Fairmont with my MGE version.

attatched is proof it was 2.42.

[solo]

SCG,

I'm betting your screen shots from Parkersburg came while playing the game in MGE, since I get a different result with the same city using 2.42

It looks to me that with MGE, manipulating shields triggers the dye bug and in 2.42 it's copper instead. In all examples I've seen so far, the result is copper or dye in the #1 demand slot. I believe other changes are due to a movement of copper or dye. I already know that the dye bug affects the human cities in MGE and the AI cities in 2.42, and examples so far of shields <=0 correlate with this difference.

I have also confirmed this works in deity.

goape,

Perhaps an example calculation for the supply of hides will help:

Suppose your city has a silk, 2 other forest tiles, 3 tiles with rivers and 1 jungle tile. Suppose that there are not any tundra or glacier tiles. Let's also assume that you have acquired 17 techs so far in the game and that the size of this city is 2.

First count up the total number of tile types relevant to hides:

forest = 4 for silk + 2 others for a total of 6.
rivers = 3
jungle = 1

Now using the first part of the formula:

Supply = 6x4 + 0x6 + 0x6 + 1x3 + 3x3
= 24 + 0 + 0 + 3 + 9
= 36

Now make the adjustment for having 17 techs, which is in the group of 16-23:

36x2 = 72

Now let's adjust for size 2:

72x2 = 144, which is the SQ for hides.

Notice how the SQ for hides will drop if the city grows bigger and as you acquire more techs. For example, when the city reaches size 8 we will divide by 2 rather than multiply by 2 when performing the last calculation.

SCG,

attached is Parkersburg after 0 shields in 2.42:

[SCG]

one more followup - the phenomenom occurs again in Ravenna in 1336 -> 16 turns later. Also, Rome recurs in 1339, also 16 turns later. I didn't run through every city, but did happen to notice that it occurs at Cumae (also with copper in the commodities list) in 1335. that may be the next test i run. One other note, rehoming a unit in that city will trigger just the same as removing a worker - key seems to be 0 production, and quite possibly recurs every 16 turns.

[SCG]

another followup = Rome does do the same thing in 1323. Uranium -> Dye on demand list, and Gold->Wool on the supply side

[SCG]

as a followup, i'm wondering if the turns where this happen correspond with the 16-year cycles discussed earlier. If so, perhaps Rome will display similar results sometime in the next 15 turns?

[SCG]

My research wasn't quite so involved I was looking for a diety game with cities that were actually supporting units, so i would be able to lower the production to 0. If a city has no support, it will always have extra production from the city square itself. The fact that copper was there provided optimism, although Rome also has Copper and nothing happens there.

[Bloody Monk]

@SCG,

Positively amazing!! Thanks for the heads-up on this.

In the Ravenna example, copper held the center supply slot. Is that what you searched for to force this change?? How did you come to discover this, if you don't mind filling in the blanks??

Monk

[SCG]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
Good catch SCG! I will start looking out for this one. Just hope it works at Deity.

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SG(2)

I pulled up Bloody Monk's early landing save, and Ravenna's demand list changed when dropped to 0 production (Coal and Silk swapped places, Uranium changed to Dye) but only worked in the 2.42 version, not in the MGE version. And on the next turn, whatever the chosen demand list was was then locked into position.

As a test, i created 2 Antium dye freights on the next turn in cheat mode, dye was demanded (242) and triggered a change back to Uranium. 2nd dye was undemanded (121) The reverse was not true though. Delivering a Uranium freight (484) did not trigger a change back to dye.

So looks like it works in Diety, but only with 2.42 and deliveries do trigger the commodities back to how they were before the alteration.