The Importance of Literacy

[Scouse Gits]

Hi guys,

I'm playing a quiet game of 2.42 Deity Raging and found that somehow I seem to have completely avoided the usual tech slowdown in the early middle game ie in the Monarchy to Democracy period. So what went right?

As usual I built three Warriors in Carthage and started a WoW building, Utica and all other cities followed the normal path of Warrior, and then Settlers until the cows came home. Normal rush for Monarchy, but after that I took a different route from my usual dash to Trade. I was having fairly frequent incursions from pirates so I thought after Monarchy "let's take Writing to get an early Diplomat" - this allowed me to buy a Trireme so I did a little oversea exploration - and, since my WoW was nearly complete I decided to make Philosophy my next goal and put Trade on the back burner - so ...

When I met the Indians I swapped Literacy for Map Making, they built an early Great Library and the rest is history.

The game was different for me in several ways - the delay in getting Trade made me churn out Settlers for longer - so I have more cities and more roads than normal. More cities meant Monotheism became my fourth goal after Monarchy, Philosophy and Trade and with the key Civ stuffing itself with useless tech from all and sundry my tech costs are minimal.

Hardly a scientific treatise, but this, for me, deviant research path has paid off handsomely...

Cheers, Stu

[Grigor]

Oh Boy! Civ II Strategy ideas as 2006 approaches!

We have been runing to Trade early because of the beneficial effects of MPE. Solo's orginal Early Landing Treatise suggested something more in the lines of this new path, but I think he came to see that MPE was ultimately quicker. And of course Slow Thinker has his rabid ICS strategy (complete with pyramids) with which he annihilated the competition.

The whole question of mid-game tech path is interesting and I have not been able to formulate any important principles.

[Scouse Gits]

Thanks Grigor, as you know I am not an early anything person, just play the game for maximum fun - and this game certainly repaid me in the fun stakes

Stu

... and a Merry Yuletide to all our readers ...

[StuporMan]

Hmm, this is an interesting strategy, let me see if I am understanding it properly. Basically the point is to research literacy before trade in order to get an opponent to build the Great Library and trade techs with them. So you are using GL essentially as a mini-Marco Polo's Embassy, without the nasty side effect of actually having to build the GL.

While it is not foolproof, I can see potential benefits. Firstly, this tactic makes MPE a little less important in the early goings. It also means that you can build Colossus or some other wonder before MPE, ensuring you get some of the important early wonders (no more lost Colossus!). Alternatively, you can invest your early resources into more cities to expand more rapidly. Bonus points if the GL civ is your Key Civ.

This could be potentially very beneficial on a large map, or where you are isolated on an island with one civ. If you have multiple civs close, then you can trade techs with all of them and get a similar effect. If you are isolated by yourself, then you will be forced to build MPE earlier to get tech trades.

The difficult part will be to ensure that the civ you give Literacy to will build the GL. But this is definitely worth some investigation.

Hmm, Grigor makes some good points about MPE and EL, but I think your strategy might still hold some credence. Should all go to plan and your close opponent build the GL, you can build Pyramids and HG first for rapid growth AND still get almost the same benefit as MPE. Likewise you can give your Key Civ an early Tech lead making tech costs very low. The downside is that you will be a little slower in getting out your first trade caravans and may lose out on some early hides trades as your tech number increases, but the benefits appear as though they would often more than make up for this.

Then again, I am not much for EL games. I really only have experience with OCC games. (But I think I might try this strategy in my next OCC game too).

StuporMan

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by StuporMan
Bonus points if the GL civ is your Key Civ.

StuporMan

Or Not.

Seems to me, Stu is saying it MUST be the Key Civ. Otherwise, how do you get lower tech costs in this area of the game (before Lib, Univ, Cope's, Ike).

The "key" to this working is early contact with PurpleCiv. One might say that, given such early contact, one could get close to the same results by continuous tech gifting to Purple, but the point of this is the off path techs that you would not be researching which Purple would grab. This could put you in bonus-land for your tech costs. Way to go, Stu!!

Remembering something from similar situations. Later on as you have occassion to trade or gift to other civs, make sure to gift the tech to Purple beforehand, so they get it from you rather than the GL. This will keep you from missing the Attitude bump from the gift.

(The other advantage of this is getting the third line for rushing sooner rather than later.)

Monk

[Scouse Gits]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
... Stu is saying it MUST be the Key Civ. Otherwise, how do you get lower tech costs in this area of the game (before Lib, Univ, Cope's, Ike). ...

Exactly my point - there seems little benefit if the GL goes elsewhere - but I do take the point that it might obviate the need for MPE - never my favourite WoW anyway

Stu

[Elephant]

Two forks in strategy here, but basically I agree with Bloody Monk (welcome back, by the way!). If you are ICSing your KeyCiv will be Purple. If they are on the same continent or nearby and you have early contact this strategy will pay off. If they are not nearby make Trade and MPE the first priority and gift them Lit as soon as you get it.

The other fork in strategy is with OCC, as StuporMan ruminated. Here your early KeyCiv will be White (which it sounds like ScouseGits is playing), and early Trade and MPE have a much greater value as you are shooting for alliances before you WeLove-grow your city and the AI get into mid-game wars. Sometimes, as with EL games, an OCC player should consider using his off-path tech on the way to Monarchy to grab Writing rather than Bronze. Then again, if the circumstances are looking good you could punt Monarchy and go straight for Early Republic via Literacy. A couple games Solo played back when we were doing Early Landing Comparison games used the Early Republic path very nicely.

On the subject of tech-gifting Wonder techs to the AI, I like to gift "pacifying" techs like Republic and Mysticism right away but I hold onto Masonry and Literacy unless there is an advantageous trade I can make (or I need just one more gift to get their attitude up to where I can get an alliance or swap maps). Often I'll wait till they start a Wonder I am interested in, like HG or Colossus, then I will gift them Mas or Lit in hopes that they will swap their building for the lower-value Wonder. This has worked out numerous times, especially in OCC play were my building rate is very limited. I am often gifting techs to keep alliance gold-begging flowing, then turning around and using that gold to rush-build caravans to grab the Wonders that the AI just switched away from. Lots of fun!

[Scouse Gits]

?White? the noble Carthaginian civilisation is Orange, sirrah!

Stu

[StuporMan]

Ouch, I just got told by the Bloody Monk! Thats all right though, we are just glad you have returned.

Yes you are quite correct, Key Civ is a requirement for this strategy to work effectively. My powers of deduction and reading just failed me somewhat while posting. Most of my Civ 2 brainpower is devoted to improvements to the Calculator these days. Although it may mean that I have a Christmas present for all of you.

StuporMan

[Bloody Monk]

It's okay, StuporMan. I figured it was the first part of your sig in operation.

Monk

[Grigor]

OK, here is my 2 cents:
OK, here is my 2 cents.

The real issue here is to decide how to evaluate strategies. Since it is Stu, let's assume a goal of rapid conquest with gratifying superiority over the hapless AI, hopefully involving ironclads. I guess the goal would be to stomp the buggers ASAP.

Now, in some of the CFC GOTM events, which admittedly are normally on lower levels, I am currently trying for the earliest possible conquest, which with a len elephant rush can be as soon as 1300-1500 BC by my third or fourth try with the map. This means I have time for exactly one wonder, which needs to be MPE for purposes of finding the AI.

If my goal is a 900 conqust, I might have time for a second wonder, usually lighthouse because I need it to reach all the AI, but in other cases HG.

A third wonder (could be anythings) can be online by 650BC, which allows for some extra score (civilization based goals). .

In none of these strategies do I need to get beyond Elephants, so the early Literacy strategy is not useful.

On the other hand, if the map is bigger, then it may be 500BC before I can reach the first overseas AI, so a slower path is appropriate. The earliest I get MC is 200BC. I have actually had desperate problems with those constraints, as the last GOTM 58 showed all too clearly. I get sidetracked, and it is 1300 AD almost before I notice it. But Peaster is rapidly becoming the master in these situations. and I hope he weighs in here.

Early landing strategies have been covered very satisfyingly in different ways by Solo and Slow Thinke. They generally expect a landing before 500 AD, which nevertheless allows for a pretty big civ if one has the patience for the micromanagement of trade.

Underlying both these ideas is the goal of early finish, both for the elegance aspect and for the practical aspect that early finishes tend not to involve the player in 1-hour-per-turn issues.

Nice to hear from you, Monk.
P.S.
This thread should be in the strtegy forum, Ming...

[Elephant]

...except that the Strategy forum is practically dead, and probably should be just folded into the General forum now.

My apologies, SG, I was reading your post on a "coffee break" too quickly and read Cardiff for Carthage.

Grigor, we may be making a mountain out of a molehill, but it seems like SG was doing more than an Early Conquest as he mentioned mid-game issues like transition to Democracy. Could he even be (rapid intake of breath here) working on his extremely rusty spaceship skills? In any case a longer term research rate seems to be the focus.

[Grigor]

My feeble mind refuses to wrap itself around the hard bolus of SG's pursuing a Spaceship strategy...

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
...as you know I am not an early anything person, just play the game for maximum fun ....
Stu

... and a Merry Yuletide to all our readers ...

It will be hard to fit a fun-loving Git into your respective agendas.

Monk ...definitely on the side of fun

[Scouse Gits]

Democracy is for The Lady - soft Fundy and to me the infinite fun of having a celebrating empire that rolls over the opposition ...

Yes you can land in 20AD and conquer in BC2500 - but is it FUN - not particularly as far as I'm concerned.

Stu