Destruction of Foes (DoF) - Diplogame Light

[Carthage (DoF)]

As long as you refrain from any offensive action that is fine. And Carthage and Portugal have not yet played.
We have to be able to meet in-game to finish up the turn.. ( alot needs to be discussed)

[Bulgaria (DoF)]

Sigh, this deprives me from burning down Carthage City this turn, but ... Yeah, sure. I'll restrain myself

[Rome (DoF)]

Time was, and Bulgaria to join openly in the war. I already thought that Bulgaria will fight to the last Hungarian.

[Bulgaria (DoF)]

It is more likely the other way around

[Carthage (DoF)]

It is best to discuss first what we think of stealing tech from ones ally.

I like to discuss it before it is done: as in the current alliances there is such a big difference in tech levels, it is bound to come up.
Personally I think this is of the same level of the city swap which we ruled out.

[DNK]

I suppose I don't have much of a voice anymore, but it doesn't feel "gamey" nearly as much as the city-swapping, which is pure gameyness, as it not only wouldn't happen in real life, but couldn't possibly (as the machinery/phyiscal capital/labor could not instantaneously move to another city and back like that, even if one were decided on doing it, which itself is quite unbelievable).

On the other hand, allies (especially enemy-of-my-enemy sorts) don't necessarily refrain from trying to get information or technology from each other (or intriguing each other), even if it's seen as "espionage" by one. One can just look at how two of the closest allies in the modern world coexist (Israel and the US) to see that formal and long-standing military-political alliances don't preclude all sorts of fairly "unfriendly" behavior. The US-Chinese relationship, likewise, has been fraught with espionage from the lesser, though few would consider that a true "alliance" (though economically, the integration is quite high, and it certainly constitutes an economic partnership as close as any in a Civ game).

Therefore, I see no reason to rule it out as you have with city swaps.

[Carthage (DoF)]

We have ticked "no tech trading" and "no tech brokering", so then "stealing tech from allies" isn't intended...

[Bulgaria (DoF)]

It is best to discuss first what we think of stealing tech from ones ally.

I like to discuss it before it is done: as in the current alliances there is such a big difference in tech levels, it is bound to come up.
Personally I think this is of the same level of the city swap which we ruled out.

Said the one with the advanced techs.

And now more constructive: Stealing a tech, even from a friend, requires preparations and knowledge, even luck and don't come for free at all, so it is not gamey at all. Not as if you click a button and the city changes ownership.

Also agree with all DNK said.

[Carthage (DoF)]

You may steal them from me

[DNK]

I think tech trading was solely eliminated as a necessity of preventing large tech-trading blocs from forming for the health of the game. If one civ is willing to let another do a one-sided steal, though, it's different, as it doesn't really benefit the one who loses the tech directly, whereas a tech trade does. It's not the threat to the dynamism of the game nearly as much as tech trading is. I can understand the issues, but just consider it a sort of semi-permanent alliance factor, whereby the ally gets a nice benefit to teching if his partner already has the tech

[Bulgaria (DoF)]

@Carthage: What makes you think that for Hungary for example it will be any hard to steal from you while you are keeping their cities with their huge culture?

[Egypt (DoF)]

Too hard to implement a rule now and at this stage fo the game it doesn't really matter. We upgrade for each other anyway.
You couldn't say that you shouldnt use ypour spy points on x nation because it is you ally now-it might had been convenient to collect spy points on that nation, you should be able to use it.
I agreee that it is problematic if two nations help each other some how to make stealing easier-but hard to define a line. I could do counterespionge on hungary and bulgaria to stop them stealing 8I don't think they had stolen anything btw) from me: but
1, I could use my spies/points elsewhere
2, I don't think it really matters at this stage.
3, stealing from me is quite expensive anyway because I have the highest spending.

[Carthage (DoF)]

I am not thinking that will be hard. But I'll try to counter that, while stealing tech from an ally is a done deal.

But if we rule it is OK, then it is OK.

[Bulgaria (DoF)]

Yeah, it could be really difficult to draw the line. And definitely not in this late stage of the game, (where some of us already invested thousands of hammers building those espionage buildings everywhere and thousands of espionage points towards different people). And Egypt is correct that it is damn expensive to steal from them for sure. For me it was way cheaper to steal from Persia even while we were at war, but Egypt took their cities away - what now - I am disadvantaged because we are allies with Egypt or what?

Not to mention your biggest ally (with biggest production in the game) have already most of the techs to produce units you will ever need, so if we forbid tech stealing your alliance will have way better position. Which I think was the whole point of this timed proposal, but it is not too fair to us. Not that I am sure Portugal did not steal from you already, while I did not stole anything from anyone till now with their huge espionage complex

[Carthage (DoF)]

Portugal did not steal anything from me. But as I said, it's OK. But now it is clear.