The Dance of Civilizations [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread Pt1]

[Robert]

For the record; Arabia and the Ottomans were allies already. It's not prohibited on before hand that Arabia may not intervene b/c it's being subbed by the Ottomans.

but if that happens, it may be better if the Ottomans hand the Arabia subbing over to someone else.

[Russia (DoC)]

I did not make a double move!

My ships were loaded several turns prior, and waiting in position for several turns within range. Only on the newest turn when I was otherwise ready did I move them. Including the declaration of war. Arabia (sic) should be able to confirm that I had a large fleet stationed outside his borders within range of the Ottoman island. Also, I suspect Persia should be able to tell that I had a fleet stationed within range of Mehmed for several turns.

I logged in to play my turn this morning, saw that there was only 30 mins left on the timer and played the other turn after breakfeast... I made no MOVES on the 1360 turn that would give me any advantage. As I said, everything was in place, no move was made to gain any movement advantage.

As for Ottoman secretly playing Arabia... that is just ridiculous! I have had a large fleet stationed for 2-3 turns within range of his island outside Arabia's border, so that the Ottoman player should not be able to see it. If I had known that Arabia was played by Ottoman I would have made VERY different plans for my troop placements.

I will NOT accept Ottoman playing Arabia also.


EDIT: Note that ALL my attacks were AMPHIBIOUS ASSAULTS! For the reason that I did not want to allow him to reinforce his underdefended cities through a siege. I did not land troops on his land the first turn, I declared war and made all moves on the last turn.

And regarding burning Mehmed... I don't think I can be guaranteed that my amphibious invasion would go so well again if we reload. Though I would have burned it, yes.

[Byzantium (DoC)]

Damn - I see what you Robert about the double move. Russia - the issue is the rules says the order in the turn before the war needs to be observed so you can't move troops to the border and then attack without the opponent having the chance to respond.

Regarding the Ottoman sub, I am very hestitant. Yes of course the sub arrangement cannot mean that Arabia has to do nothing but 'ally' can be mean lots of things, but more importantly, you cannot have two opponents controlled by the same person. That is just unfair. So before any Arabian involvement the Arabian player would have to change. There is a massive tactical advantage to one mind controlling both nations involved in a war.

[Robert]

This is a bit an uneasy situation, but nobody did this on purpose. I'm sure we can get a way out.

@Russia: I understand what you're saying. It's just too hard to judge on unit-by-unit level what unit did and what unit did not double move. Perhaps not for you, but it is for the rest of the players. If we go that way, it can easily be exploited or manipulated.

that's why there's this generic double move rule.
And I do understand that it hits you hard now, but that's not something you can blame the ottomans for.

But maybe the Ottomans will accept the situation, especially since they got a bit of an advantage b/c they subbed for Arabia and got some info they would not have had without it.
(though keep in mind; the Arabs and the Ottomans were allied already, the real Arabs may also have told the Ottomans about your fleet, especially since this war did not surprise anybody)

But I agree that the Ottoman player cannon continue to sub for Arabia now.
I suggest that the Ottoman player suggests a sub for Arabia that's neutral in this conflict.

Let's all please stay calm here!
And let's trust each other. We're all honest players.

[Orb (DoC)]

Is the game still paused? Does the Ottoman player even know he is at war?

[Robert]

The rule is based on turn order. Not on unit movements.
To warrant to both parties that no party will make double moves with units, it's forbidden to play two turns in a row without your enemy playing his turn in between.

[Russia (DoC)]

Here is what we can do. Load the previous turn, log into my civ, look at where my troops where the turn BEFORE the attack. That way it is easily provable that I did not make a double move to make use of any tactical advantage.

I may have been hasty, but I could just as well not have played the previous turn, all I did was wait for some troops to be finished.

And had I known that the Arabs and Ottomans were allied I would have DoW'ed on them too so I could blockade them and make sure they could make no trouble. I can't seem to have found any official military alliance announcement between Ottoman and Arabia in recent posts. Are really alliances 3000 years long?



As for turn order, I guess I was not well enough aware of the ruleset. But if I had NOT played my previous turn, could I then be first? Cause I would be fine with that.

[mzprox]

This rule, which I've always supported, is a bit problematic when we have fast turns. It requires a bit planning, and in any case Russia should had asked for longer turns in the turn before declaring war (asking Robert or Ozzy, no need to announce this in public).
I agree that this is a quite complicated situation already, the best would be if the Ottomans/Arabians could confirm that there was no actually double moving unit and/or accept this current situation w/o reloading.

[England (DoC)]

I agree, if the Ottomans/Arabs can support what Russia says. No harm down.

[Korea (DoC)]

yes lets change rules as we play... AGAIN....

[OzzyKP]

I agree that this is a quite complicated situation already, the best would be if the Ottomans/Arabians could confirm that there was no actually double moving unit and/or accept this current situation w/o reloading.

I agree with this.

I also offer to sub for the Arabs if needed.

[Russia (DoC)]

ask for longer turns the turn before attacking? and reveal the moment of attack like that?

[Egypt (DoC)]

yes lets change rules as we play... AGAIN....

Korea, this is between Russia and the Ottomans, it's not a rule change, they are trying to find a decent solution with the least hassle for both parties. Let's not muddle their attempts at this by complaining about something that you are not involved in

[Persia (DoC)]

When I declared war on Russia, 4000 years ago, I PM'ed Ozzy and asked him to tell RP that the turn timer had to be extended.
Back then I feared that RP would be Russia, so I didn't dare to PM RP himself immediately. Oh paranoia oh paranoia.

[OzzyKP]

The irony of course is that at the time I was subbing for Russia.

There was absolutely nothing I could do however to stop you. But I passed it off to the then permanent player just before you attacked. Nothing he could do either.