How can you have Cavalry without Horseback Riding?

[Silbeg]

[SIZE=1] But I still think that Industrialism should require Combustion. Large modern factories are run on oil these days, not steam. Assembly Line I can see for Steam Power, but not Industrialism.

Well, I disagree. The industrial revolution was powered by steam, which was produced by burning coal. Water power was the other main power source, during early industrialism.

Without industrialization, you wouldn't have assembly lines. This was Henry Ford's big innovation... not automobiles, since many had invented cars before him. He was the first to mass produce cars.

I think that the order on these are pretty accurate.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Silbeg


Well, I disagree. The industrial revolution was powered by steam, which was produced by burning coal. Water power was the other main power source, during early industrialism.

Without industrialization, you wouldn't have assembly lines. This was Henry Ford's big innovation... not automobiles, since many had invented cars before him. He was the first to mass produce cars.

I think that the order on these are pretty accurate.

But you're not considering the order that they appear in the game. Industrialization appears after Assembly Line, not before. It's meant to represent the evolution of the early factories to the big, efficient manufacturing centres that we have today. And those need Oil in order to function properly IMO.

[Silbeg]

Originally posted by Willem
But you're not considering the order that they appear in the game. Industrialization appears after Assembly Line, not before. It's meant to represent the evolution of the early factories to the big, efficient manufacturing centres that we have today. And those need Oil in order to function properly IMO.

Sorry... didn't have my tech map available.

Then, I guess Steam Power would have to represent early industrialization (in fact, it does allow Railroads, which were critical to industrialization for many reasons).

Still, I would disagree that oil is required for modern industrialization. I agree with the previous poster who states that Electricity is a requirement. With cheap electricity, such as hydro-electric, a lot can be done... without expensive petrochemicals.

On the other hand, Plastics would be severely hampered without petrochemicals... few modern plastics are derived from non-fossil fuels sources.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Silbeg

Sorry... didn't have my tech map available.

Then, I guess Steam Power would have to represent early industrialization (in fact, it does allow Railroads, which were critical to industrialization for many reasons).

Steam Power is a requirement for Assembly Line so that part's right.

I agree with the previous poster who states that Electricity is a requirement. With cheap electricity, such as hydro-electric, a lot can be done... without expensive petrochemicals.

On the other hand, Plastics would be severely hampered without petrochemicals... few modern plastics are derived from non-fossil fuels sources.

Electricity is a requirement for Industrialization, along with Assembly Line, and Plastics needs both Industrialization and Combustion. I just feel that Combustion should be needed a bit earlier, especially since Industrialization allows for the building of Tanks. I've never heard of an electric powered Tank, have you?

few modern plastics are derived from non-fossil fuels sources.

That's not because they can't be, it's just that so far it's been more convenient and economical using Oil.

[Robert]

Originally posted by elrikk




Isn't it really the first reincarnation of the 'sound' of written text ?

Elrikk ( an old McLuhan fan)

Not that either.
Between the sign-for-every-word writing and the alphabeth was the (I don't know the proper english word) 'subphrase' writing, in which common combinations got their own sign.

ie. computer = com pu ter, ie. com = #, pu = % and ter = &
Then command would be #@ (if mand = @)
That's already a form of sound-written text sa well.

[gdgrimm]

I just feel that Combustion should be needed a bit earlier, especially since Industrialization allows for the building of Tanks. I've never heard of an electric powered Tank, have you?

I don't have my tech tree handy, but to build Tanks I think you need Oil, and you can only get that through Oil Wells which you can't build until you have Combustion.

If I'm correct with all that, then you can't have Tanks without Combustion.

You can have Factories that will build other things, but not Tanks, or Planes, or other Oil requiring units. You can build nuclear powered naval vessals though, and whole slew of Infantry, and all kinds of other stuff.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Willem
Ah yes, I see. I'm forgetting about the unit requirements. Never mind.

But I still think that Industrialism should require Combustion.

Britain was being industrialised for over a century before the internal combustion engine became common place.

But you're not considering the order that they appear in the game. Industrialization appears after Assembly Line, not before. It's meant to represent the evolution of the early factories to the big, efficient manufacturing centres that we have today

If thats the case, then I think the wrong term is being used. Industrialisation is not about the 20th century, its about the 19th. Mass production is something else.

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by gdgrimm
If I'm correct with all that, then you can't have Tanks without Combustion.

I agree, but it works in the game. We need a long time between tanks and mech infantry and modern armor. Perhaps in a redesign, they could make combustion a requirement, but make it along with industrialism a bit cheaper. Flight and plastics could be made somewhat more expensive to compensate.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Dauphin

If thats the case, then I think the wrong term is being used. Industrialisation is not about the 20th century, its about the 19th. Mass production is something else.

I agree, the tech should really be called Mass Production.

[Willem]

Originally posted by gdgrimm


I don't have my tech tree handy, but to build Tanks I think you need Oil, and you can only get that through Oil Wells which you can't build until you have Combustion.

If I'm correct with all that, then you can't have Tanks without Combustion.

You can have Factories that will build other things, but not Tanks, or Planes, or other Oil requiring units. You can build nuclear powered naval vessals though, and whole slew of Infantry, and all kinds of other stuff.

Yes that's true, but it still doesn't sit right with me. After all, it was Henry Ford and the internal combustion engine that began the process of Mass Production techniques. Historically, it just doesn't mesh not having Combustion as a requirement.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Blake
The engineering bit I find funny is you can build Lumbermills without Engineering. Um, yeah?

Why can't you build lumbermills without engineering?

Afterall, engineering is a relatively recent invention. The Fobidden Palace was built without Engineering - so was the Great Wall.

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Why can't you build lumbermills without engineering?

Afterall, engineering is a relatively recent invention. The Fobidden Palace was built without Engineering - so was the Great Wall.

I think it depends on the degree of engineering. Certainly engineering in more simple forms was used in Egyptian and Roman times, but Civ uses construction to reflect this level of development. Engineering in Civ refers to the late medieval or early renaissance era (Da Vinci for example). Probably lumber or saw mills of the level used in the late renaissance era with the discovery of replaceable parts in Civ should require engineering to reflect the need to design gears, and mechanical linkages. Since this is before steam power, they would still be water powered saw mills.

This type of power saw driven by water dates authentically from about 1322 and was first used near Augsburg in Germany. As early as 1635, saw mills were introduced into the New England's Colonies. One is mentioned at this time as being at Salmon Falls on the Piscataqua River near Portsmouth in New Hampshire. The power driven frame saw held its own, where there was unlimited water power, until about 1825, when the circular saw began to be used in conjunction with the steam engine, which allowed saw mills to be built anywhere adjacent to the forest lands.

http://kmoddl.library.cornell.edu/tutorials/03/Week4-3.pdf

[gdgrimm]

Originally posted by Willem


Yes that's true, but it still doesn't sit right with me. After all, it was Henry Ford and the internal combustion engine that began the process of Mass Production techniques. Historically, it just doesn't mesh not having Combustion as a requirement.

Well, I think you're incorrectly linking the concept of Assembly Line (Mass Production) with cars (Combustion). Yes, Ford choose to use his assembly line concepts to build cars, but he could have just as easily used it to mass produce cheap, standard horse drawn carriages, or furniture. "You can have your dining room set in any color and style, as long as it's black and looks like this one."

So I think the way Civ handles it is accurate. You get the better means of production with Assembly Lines (Factories), and can use it to better make whatever you want to build. But if what you want to build requires an internal combustion engine (i.e. Tanks or Planes), then you need to know Combustion, also.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Willem


Yes that's true, but it still doesn't sit right with me. After all, it was Henry Ford and the internal combustion engine that began the process of Mass Production techniques. Historically, it just doesn't mesh not having Combustion as a requirement.

I thought Colt was the first to mass produce and market a product, namely guns. Ford based his lines off of Colt if I remember my history right.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Dauphin


I thought Colt was the first to mass produce and market a product, namely guns. Ford based his lines off of Colt if I remember my history right.

Ford was the first to introduce the assembly line process, not necessarily mass production per se. He created procedures that made manufacturing more effecient and cost effective, allowing him to lower prices fro his products and gain that market advantage. His techniques were quite revolutionary for manufacturing at that time, and many companies soon started following his example. He changed the whole nature of manufacturing in that age.