OPD says: I guess it's thanks to you all for coming PLATO says: OPD, The Horde has an opening statement if you will OPD says: good to see you still have faith in the game OPD says: and it's over to the Horde ormuzd says: once again - hello to everyone PLATO says: Greetings all. First let me thank you all for attending. We have a short but important agenda for this meeting. I would like to start with the items we would like to discuss...more PLATO says: 1.) Beta has been very perceptive in his identification of 2 facts...one-That there are many new players here and two-that their is a "gray line" to roleplaying PLATO says: This truth has led to great misunderstanding on personal levels and we wish to state our position clearly...we have NO personal animosity to anyone in this game...have NOT wished to cause any ill feelings, and we have tried to PLAY as MONGOLS would have acted. We wish all to leave this game as friends PLATO says: 2.) IN game we wish to discuss the possibility of a time of peace for all civs to regroup and restore enjoyment to this game PLATO says: As Beta is one of the more experienced Civ DG players here, I would like to seek your comments on item 1. Beta says: The game has sort of been a train wreck. Beta says: And we have all contributed ti it in some form or another. Beta says: Deceit, backstabbing, breaking deals - these are all legit demo game tactics. Beta says: This I know . Beta says: The trick is staying on this side of the greay line, and not letting it get personal. Beta says: Which is difficult given the time and enery and emotion we all put into this. Beta says: So I think we hit a boiling point last week. Beta says: Maybe not a bad thing, IMHO. Beta says: Made us all sit back and think about it. Beta says: I would also like this game to continue and conclude on a 'friendlier" (out-of-game) note. Beta says: And to that end, I applaud this conference. Finished. ormuzd says: I guess we should meet like this once a week or a month ormuzd says: just to clarify some problems related to RP ormuzd says: it is obvious the people have different ,eamimgs of the role playing Beta says: Good idea. OPD says: that can be floated on in the forum. see if it takes off.... LN do you have anything in response to item 1 PLATO says: I believe that the differing ideas of what roleplaying is ia at the root of the problem. Matt says: Yes, I have some opinions with it. Beta says: zzzzzzz.....thump. (the lder statesman Beta falls asleep.) Beta says: elder OPD says: I get the feeling you guys are talking to each other separetly? Matt says: I love roleplay, I have nothing against it whatsoever. My problem with it is that people on all sides are using roleplay to use cheapshots against other teams. I'm not too sure it's unavoidable however. We've all invested hours into this game, some more than others. When two nations go to war, there is a chance all of what you have worked for will go to waste. ormuzd says: yeah, GB is the most finest example of role playing without offending anyone Beta says: OPD - GB and I are - I am just checking that I have hit the right note with my earlier comments. Beta says: I think LN was simply having typing issues. Paddy says: Yes The Horde has a seperate chat underway - but we here. Beta says: orm - agreed. :b: Matt says: My MSN is rather strange. ormuzd says: I have a chat wit myself and I start to feel a little bit upset with myself PLATO says: GB's roleplaying has been a pleasure to read. Matt says: Indeed. Beta says: Be nice to yourself orm. Beta says: So - we are all agreed to try and keep things more civil out-of-game in the future. Matt says: However, if a team found GB's roleplaying offensive, and it clearly wasn't just a way to piss him off, he should stop. ormuzd says: no, he said numerous times noone should Matt says: I'm just using him as an example. ormuzd says: ah, yes, sorry Matt says: His roleplaying clearly isn't offensive. Beta says: And meet here once a month - or more often as necessary to discuss issues or if things look like they are getting out of hand. ormuzd says: yes, it would be nice Matt says: That is a good idea. Matt says: Shall we go to in-game issues then? PLATO says: While I agree that we should be sensitive to people being offended by some RP, I also think that some should be less sensitive to being offended and realize that some situations in game call for a stronger roleplay attitude. There is room for all to move to a friendlier middle, I think Beta says: And one more thing ... Beta says: The horde sucks. hehehehe Chris has left the conversation. Matt says: lol Beta says: just some light humour. OPD says: ok, would anyone like to respond to item 2 ormuzd says: with all those "sucks" I guess it is joke you have from some earlier games OPD says: I'll write up some kind of summary of item 1 later PLATO says: hehe...we will suck down fine Babylonian liquor when we stand among the ruins of your bars...hehe Beta says: Exactly, orm. ormuzd says: con sucks, beta is lazy nad sucks, MZ sucks... Beta says: heheh - it will all be poisoned. ormuzd says: ok, let's go to the business then ormuzd says: in-game peace Paddy says: Indeed Beta says: for say, 300 turns. ormuzd says: there were some talks between the Horde and Babylon ormuzd says: and just a few between Ankh-Morpork and Babylon Paddy says: Matt says: Be right back. Matt says: It'll be a minute or so. Beta says: We will continue. ormuzd says: I can say we have not achieved a lot, so I hope the other talks were more productive and we may start from there Chris has been added to the conversation. Beta says: Welcome back CM. Paddy says: this item is of timing mainly, but first I would like to ask the all team captains - do you still want peace? I am here with that desire Paddy says: Beta? Matt says: I think a good question to ask is whether BOH wants peace? Paddy says: did you read my statement? I am here with the desire for word peace. Beta says: Yes - works for us. Paddy says: Ormuzd? Matt says: Okay, then why is it that you bring military units into my lands without even asking me? Paddy says: they land locked and going home Beta says: Paddy says: if I was attacking you would be attacked Matt says: How encouraging. Matt says: Why did you not even tell me beforehand? PLATO says: LN, let's look to the future...on board for peace...yes or no? Paddy says: why you wait to ask now, when we were in chat before this? can we stay focused, or do 1 sword and 1 med inf scare you that much ormuzd says: as general I agree for a peace Matt says: It scares me that much. ormuzd says: but saying simply peace is not enough Matt says: I have security issues. PLATO says: Let's get an expression of desire for peace from all before we move to details if that is okay ormuzd? OPD says: matt do you seek peace? ormuzd says: LB are in peace with everyone, the Horde called for world peace, Babbylon wants peace, Ankh-Morpork wants peace Matt says: On a general principle, yes. PLATO says: Beta? Beta says: see above - yes. PLATO says: Okay...so we are all desiring peace. Excellent OPD says: plato are the armies of the horde in other territory set to leave their lands? Paddy says: Yes PLATO says: Yes Beta says: I would like to know what orm is is referring to. Paddy says: as stated above they going home ormuzd says: the most simple thing is the duration of the non-aggression period Paddy says: yes ormuzd says: for example we agree to a 42 turns of peace Beta says: or 25 ormuzd says: I'm vey unskilled in negotiations, so I'm rather expecting to see what the big sharks will propose OPD says: as the horde were teh first to talk of peace what kind of time frame would they suggest Paddy says: I see two options Paddy says: 1. 10 turns f pece and then we meet again to see if we continue 2. 25 turns of peace. OPD says: Beta, what do you think to these, or would you propose something else Beta says: I could live either - my preference would be 25. Beta says: live with either OPD says: Ormuzd you questioned duration, what do you think to this? ormuzd says: both options are fine with me ormuzd says: I was checking the last save I have Matt says: I'd rather do 25. ormuzd says: currently we are at turn 100 ormuzd says: turn 101, sorry ormuzd says: pretty nice number to start counting Paddy says: indeed Beta says: So - 25 it is?? PLATO says: Perhaps each Civ leader can vote 1 or 2? Beta says: That will be 5 AC and 5 Crusaders - correct? ormuzd says: exactly OPD says: ok 1 for 10 turns then meet again, 2 for 25 turns Paddy says: Horde votes for Option 1. Beta says: Babylon votes 2 Matt says: LB votes for 2 Beta says: The suspense is killing me. ormuzd says: let me ask again - what is option 1? OPD says: awaiting ormuz.... does the horde have some standard non aggression writing that could be posted? ormuzd says: 10 turns of peace and renegotiating after this? PLATO says: 10 turn peace and then another world conference to determine if peace continues Paddy says: OPD we have some issues on that we would like to address after this vote concluded OPD says: acknowlegded ormuzd says: ok, as I said both options are fine ormuzd says: so, I'm abstain OPD says: 25 turns it is then ormuzd says: yes OPD says: Does the Horde concur with this? Paddy says: Indeed PLATO says: We agree Beta says: OMG. Peace! OPD says: ok, we can get that posted too, OPD says: realistically there is no reason why a meeting cannot take place after 10 turns anyway.... ormuzd says: I guess the save should be hold on turn 110 or 111 until the conference is over OPD says: let it be known throughout that lands that the four nations have called a cease to the waring and peace has been declared ormuzd says: to be fair - in the turn of LB OPD says: well, peace has been agreed until turn 126..... Beta says: As part of this peace deal, AM and Babylon need to resolve border 'issues'. ormuzd says: ah, sorry ormuzd says: peace until turn 126 Beta says: Should we do it here ORm, or sperately bewteen us. OPD says: separetly Beta says: seperately OPD says: Beta says: OPD says: ok, the Horde... Matt says: Paddy says: May we address he issues of what breaks the peace? OPD says: continue Beta says: BOH says something 'bad' in the public forum. Paddy says: we see two reasons the peace is broken. 1. someone attacks another 2. personal attacks against ( Beta ) any of the team leaders by another team leader, just as is a realistic world approach to war. ormuzd says: what is the definition of "something 'bad'"? Paddy says: oh ad yes if we burp Beta says: hehe Beta says: No - I do not see any out-of-game actions as breaking the peace. Beta says: I was just joking. Beta says: What about crossing borders? Paddy says: when they are between team captains about game issues in game chats - that is in game then ormuzd says: border crossings should be agreed earlier ormuzd says: otherwise it should be considered a hostile action Paddy says: yes Beta says: I guess what I am suggesting Paddy, is that if you and I get into it, that by itself does not break the peace. Paddy says: I say it is relevat Beta says: Not until you attack. Or we attack you. PLATO says: We need a provisio that any "offensive" post should be discussed between the parties prior to a way declaration...possibly with OPD mediating? ormuzd says: if OPD agrees, it would be nice Beta says: That makes sense Plato. Paddy says: well if you and I get into it about the game, ad abuse is hurled, that is not peace Beta says: That is not peace out of game - and we have ways of dealing with that now. OPD says: that's fine, Paddy says: we ave two seperate issues on the table now Matt says: LB is against this insults = war PLATO says: So, let us all agree then that "offensive" posturing may be considered an act of war, but that the parties will be given an opportunity to mediate the situation with OPD. ormuzd says: but it is logical Matt says: Even allies fight sometimes. ormuzd says: I agree with Plato PLATO says: Thus the mediation opportunity, LN OPD says: I don't think LB and Babylon agree to that plato OPD says: Would LB and Babylon be willing to agree to peace under this condition? Beta says: We agreed to play in a more civil fashion. PLATO says: Beta, what is your specific objection? Matt says: As does LB. Beta says: So, if someone is uncivil in a forum, we have a way to deal with that. ormuzd says: it is not about someone ormuzd says: it is about a leader against a leader Beta says: To suddenly say, gee. Beta was rude, peace is over - just a bit too much like the rest of the game so far. Matt says: That's my opinion. ormuzd says: hm, there are two more teams who may think who is right and there is OPD PLATO says: I agree Beta, however..personal abuses have been raised by many as a problem. Doesn't it make sense to mediate them? Beta says: Leader to leader? PLATO says: If the mediation fails then why not war? ormuzd says: I think we are not (or at least we should) looking for a reasin to break peace ormuzd says: just to make sure it will be not abused using personal comments and like Beta says: Ok - but if a team member has a bad day and is abusive - this does not qulaify. Correct? ormuzd says: yes Beta says: It is leader to leader. Paddy says: not at all Matt says: Okay. Paddy says: yes leaders I talking of PLATO says: Leader to Leader ormuzd says: the team should gather and make it clear that this is not the team's opinion Paddy says: team captains should know better Beta says: OK - then I concur. Matt says: Am I a leader or a member? Paddy says: you are all ormuzd says: and probably ask that member to remove the offending post, sentence or word Matt says: I am the Alpha and Omega. Paddy says: Mr Q himself ormuzd says: or punish him somehow Beta says: Which makes you a leader, and theerfore subject to the "EOD code of Civility. " ormuzd says: LN, it is even worse with AM - both me and Krill are leaders PLATO says: Then we are agreed on Leader to Leader mediation of personal "in game" conduct? Beta says: Hmm - so it will apply to both of you then? ormuzd says: yes Beta says: yes OPD says: ok, so all are agreed, peace for 25 turns, subject to no personal insults leader to leader, it has been said here and shall be posted for all to see ormuzd says: if I or krill abuse someone, it will be considered an act of hostility Beta says: "I am the Alpha and Omega." Guess that makes me the beta. Matt says: Paddy says: The Horde agrees. OPD says: personal insults, leader to leader shall be mediated to aim to prevent the outbreak of war Matt says: Agreed. ormuzd says: agree Beta says: Ok - border crossings. OPD says: as standard no entering enemy land without prior consent? Paddy says: or war? Paddy says: or does admin play next turn to remove those troops? OPD says: if it was up to me it would mean war? ormuzd says: it is up to the team to decide what to do Beta says: I would say no entering other territory - period - during the 25 turns. Paddy says: I agree Beta. ormuzd says: :b: Matt says: Sounds good. OPD says: the victims team can declare war? Beta says: But BOH is really just one large national park - open to all. Ciorrect? ormuzd says: believe me, you better not try it ormuzd says: we have some expirience in this area Beta says: So - no hunting the snow leopards - Ok? Paddy says: drats - they a good eat Matt says: I prefer babies. Paddy says: smoked, grilled, even boiled ormuzd says: ah, disgusting ormuzd says: you have stopped doing it long time ago OPD says: does anyone else have business they would like to bring to the table? Beta says: hehehe - we can't resist, can we. Beta says: Yes - there was one more point above. Paddy says: no we all love a bit of razzle dazzle Paddy says: \\ Paddy says: which point Beta? ormuzd says: I think Babylon had something to add to the aggenda of this meeting? Paddy says: we have something as well. Beta says: Nope - we covered it - sorry. When paddy said we had two issues on teh table. Beta says: My other points were: Beta says: 1. the AM-Bab border - which Orm and I will discuss bilaterally. Beta says: and Beta says: 2. Enforcement of peace. Beta says: But I am not sure how this would work ??? OPD says: just to clear up the enemy territory issue, it is stated in the agreement that no units shall enter each others land and all teams agree that they will not enter each others land without prior consent? OPD says: sry beta Beta says: sry? ormuzd says: yes, OPD OPD says: sry for interupting PLATO says: enforcement...all declare war against the offender? Beta says: No - not even prior consent is sufficient to eneter other lands. Beta says: I thought that is what we agreed to. Beta says: np orm ormuzd says: why not? ormuzd says: for example we would agree your bowman E_T to meet with us at Home ormuzd says: if you pay a decent amount of gold Beta says: If that is what folks want - I could agree to it. ormuzd says: just an example Beta says: ormuzd says: or, another, more realistical example ormuzd says: if we have an unit west of your territories and you build some citie north of it ormuzd says: it will be not possible to return it home without crossing your territory ormuzd says: so, we may want to negotiate some right of passge for it Paddy says: indeed Beta says: Ok - as I said - I can agree to this. ormuzd says: ok, fine ormuzd says: but, really, what about peace enforcement? OPD says: yes back to enforcement...PLATO says: enforcement...all declare war against the offender? ormuzd says: let's say that one of the teams declares war to the other Paddy says: or the admins step in ad play that teams turn for 2 turns Matt says: Erm.. no. Beta says: We agree that the other two must join with the attacked team. Paddy says: make it public and make this peace work OPD says: I'd rather not have things go to an out of game action like that Beta says: Agreed. OPD says: but it is not up to me to decide...... Matt says: I'm 100% against it. Paddy says: the punishment must be worthy of the peace Matt says: Yes, in-game punishment. Beta says: So a mutual protection pact amongst all teams. Paddy says: other teams may declare war then do littel to nothing Matt says: So? Matt says: Such is life. Beta says: Agreed - that is the issue. Paddy says: then that not punishment Paddy says: punishment would be the admins skipping them 2 - 5 turns Paddy says: we agreed on 25 turns of peace Beta says: I think we need to rely on the honour of those heer today - pure and simple. Paddy says: ok Paddy says: I hope that this chat will be posted in the public threads then ormuzd says: I agree with Beta PLATO says: If all are serious about peace, then what is the real objection to a 2-5 turn skip? Matt says: I just don't want it. Matt says: It is using things that are not in the game. Beta says: Hmm... I see both sides of this one, ormuzd says: I tend to agree with LN PLATO says: Then keep the peace and nothing to worry about...hehe Paddy says: They are in the game - see 24 hour rule Paddy says: indeed Matt says: That's different. Matt says: That is to keep up the pace. ormuzd says: turn skipping is usually for cheating Matt says: Yeah. Paddy says: this peace is different ormuzd says: i.e. violating the rules Paddy says: breaking the peace will be violating the rules of this peace Matt says: Yes, it is an in-game agreement however. ormuzd says: damn it, I knew someone would say it Paddy says: have courage to stad by your convictions of 25 turns of peac PLATO says: A peace traety without teeth is nothing more than paper. Again, if you are serious about peace then why have a problem with real consequences? Matt says: This is just an NAP. Matt says: I am opposing this on principle. Beta says: I for one believe that honour will prevail. Paddy says: ok then I will leave this be. ormuzd says: ok, what about discussing it if it ever happens Paddy says: we meet Beta says: Agreed - we will discuss it then. Paddy says: the game stops ad we meet Matt says: Fine with me. PLATO says: OPD says: in that case will all profess a desire to see a team that breaks the peace be punished? ormuzd says: yes, somehow it will be punished OPD says: which can later be referred to at such a meeting Paddy says: yes ormuzd says: yes Beta says: Ok - is this almost over - I have to go start my "Woe unto the BOH" thread now. Beta says: And that is a yes for me. Paddy says: I have one point please Chris has left the conversation. Paddy says: Beta, we have been in war with you for a long time. I need one turn to get my towns ready for peace, I have been living off that war happiness along time - thank you for that. PLATO says: Beta says: Ok - is this almost over - I have to go start my "Woe unto the BOH" thread now. OPD says: ok, alot has been said here, a summary will be written up and a peace thread will be posted which all must post agreement in? Paddy says: yes OPD says: does that sound ok? Paddy says: yes Matt says: Yes. Beta says: Yes - most excellent. Beta says: Good discussion., PLATO says: May I suggest that the thread be posted in by each leader and then locked and topped for the duration of the 25 turns? Paddy says: I like that Beta says: yep Paddy says: Ming can lock it easy enough Matt says: I will have to respectfully excuse myself now. There are some matters that I need to attend to. OPD says: hehe Beta says: Good day, LN. PLATO says: Thanks for coming LN...be well Paddy says: will you be playing the save soon LN?