
Info: Diplomats and spies
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Info:
diplomats and spies - thread (apolyton.net) (discussion and
instructions)
General |
1.1 |
Certain amount of gold is deducted from the treasure of
civ that bribes and NOT added to civ whose unit/city is
bribed. |
1.2 |
Cities and units are immune to bribery in democracy. |
1.3 |
You don't lose movement point if you break off bribing (after you
found out the cost of bribing). |
1.4 |
Bribing from boats is allowed. |
1.5 |
Dip/spy doesn't need shield support. |
1.6 |
Dip/spy ignores ZOC. |
1.7 |
All dips/spies produced in Communism are veterans. |
1.8 |
7.2 and 1.7 and succesful defense against an attack (see 1.10)
are ways how to get dip/spy with veteran status. |
1.9 |
Low movement point (1/3 or 2/3) of dip/spy and low hit points
of dip/spy doesn't neither prevent them from doing any
action nor lower their chances. |
1.10 |
Dip/spy has 0 attack points and 0 defense points. (0 defense
doesn't mean dip/spy cannot win when defending. See the
thread
Info: Combat (GL) |
2. International incident |
International incident is caused by following actions; |
- industrial sabotage
- steal technology
- incite a revolt (bribing without "subvert city" option)
- poison water supply
|
bribing units and sabotage units has no effect on diplomacy
|
actions lower reputation and opponent is permitted to declare war
without lowering his reputation. |
2.13 |
International incident (and the decrease
of reputation) may occur only if dip/spy is successful
AND captured after completing her mission. A capture
before a try, forestalling by enemy's dip/spy (see 11.2)
and escape of the spy cause the international incident
impossible. |
2.14 |
2.13 has one exception: "Incite
revolt" causes always an international incident. |
2.15 |
If dip/spy's civilization has fundamentalism, then some advantages originate
incite a revolt causes incident |
other actions |
peace |
no incident (a message "... publicly condemn
terrorism" appears; you may ignore it) |
alliance |
steal technology |
no incident (a message "we shall overlook this
minor incident but do not let it happen again"
appears; you may ignore it) |
others |
causes incident |
|
Nimrod:It also
depends on your past relations with the civilisation
applicable. If you've been friendly in the past, they are
more likely to forgive future transgressions. |
2.3 Expel spy |
2.31 |
Any (overland, naval, aerial) offensive unit may expel other's dip/spy (it
means to kick him of to his capital. What
happens if capital doesnt exist?).
East Side Trader: I have had the expel diplo once or twice
where there is no capital and the diplo just stayed put.
But this was years ago so I am a long way from being sure
that I'm remembering correctly.
SlowThinker:Quick test: Dip/spy is expelled into the nearest city.
If dip/spy's tribe has no city then nothing happen after a try to
expel. |
2.32 |
Movement
points of unit that is expelling are not decreased, you
may do it arbitrarily times with one unit in one turn. |
2.33 |
You may
expel dip/spy only if you have cease fire, peace or you are allied
with dip/spy's civ. (If you have cease fire or peace, you may choose
between attack and expel. If you are allied, you may just expel.)
Expelling doesn't cause an international incident and it
doesn't affect attitude. |
2.34 |
Stacked Dip/spy cannot be expelled. |
2.35 |
You can expel a dip/spy ONLY if it is in
your territory (it means he is closer to one of your |
3. Bribing cities |
3.2 |
Dip/Spy may bribe a city two ways: "incite revolt"
or "subvert city".
It is possible to subvert city only if you have cease
fire, peace or you are allied.
"Incite revolt" causes the international incident and
causes disappearance of Temple, Courthouse and Cathedral and
Hydro Plant in the city.
"Subvert city" option don't have those drawbacks.
The cost of bribing is doubled for the "Subvert city"
option.
Notes to the subvert city option:
Blaupanzer: Note, if you bribe troops or a double-cost
"No incident" bribe of a city, the treaty with
the owning civ often disappears.
Slowthinker:I have a suspicion that the cease
fire always expires. Peace is cancelled sometimes. |
3.3 |
After succesfull bribe of a city, the civ that did bribing gets
a part of treasure of the civ that was bribed as a spoil
and chooses one enemy's advance (the same effect as the
capture by force). The formula for amount of gold taken
as a plunder is
GP = S / (T + 1) * G
Where
|
GP |
= gold plundered |
|
S |
= size of the city (number of
citizens) before capturing (before decreasing of
city size by 1) |
|
T |
= total number of citizens of all
cities (in the begining of turn) |
|
G |
= gold of civ whose city was
captured (in the moment of capturing) |
|
3.4 |
After succesfull bribe of a city, all units inside plus
all units one square out of the city are bribed too and free
of charge (they are never considered as stacked units). They don't get
the NON-status. |
3.5 |
It is not possible to bribe the capital (Generally, you cannot
bribe a city if your dip/spy stands just beside the
capital) |
3.6 |
size of bribed city is decreased by 1.
Size of 1-sized city is not decreased. |
3.9 |
In which case a partisan arises after
bribing a city?Newest test: Dip/spy's civ has
acquired Guerilla Warfare AND civ being bribed has
acquired Guerilla Warfare AND Conscription.
|
How does the program determine the number of partisans a given
city produces? |
The manual:After you discover Guerrilla Warfare, the
number of Partisans you receive when one of your cities
is captured increases, while the number of Partisans your
opponents receive when you capture one of their cities
decreases. |
The number of Partisans that appears is based on a number
of factors (random and otherwise), but the general rule
is that the bigger the city, the more Partisans you
receive at the time the city is captured. |
debate:
Partisans |
Partisans don't arise for the "subvert city" option. |
Formula for bribing cities
GR = DF * GF * S
Where
|
GR |
= gold required to bribe |
|
S |
= size of the city |
|
DF |
=1000 / (D+3)
(distance factor) |
|
GF |
= 1+G / 1000
(gold factor) |
|
G |
= gold of civ that is bribed |
|
D |
= the distance between dip/spy and the capital of
civ that is bribed (see 3.11; see 4.31-4.35) |
|
Besides, GR may be
multiplied by following numbers (these modifiers are
cumulative): |
|
5/6 or 2/3 |
if a spy or veteran spy is bribing |
|
1/2 |
if city is in disorder |
|
1/2 |
if no units are in city |
|
1/2 |
if bribing civ was the last owner
of the city prior to its current owner.
Xin Yu:Suppose
Chinese destroyed Roman, then occupied English's
capital. The English empire splitted into two--English
and Russia. Now will the English be able to bribe
Russian cities for half price? Will the Russian
be able to bribe Chinese cities (which were
occupied Roman cities--same color) for half price?
I think the answer to the second question is (ridicularly)
yes, but I'm not sure about the first. |
|
2 |
if you "subvert city" |
|
3.10 Notes |
Bribing from distance D=1 is not allowed. |
3.11 |
max. D> |
government of the civ whose city is bribed |
10 16 |
communism
other |
|
Government (communism) of a civ of the dip/spy has no effect for
bribing of cities. (see 4.10)) |
3.12 |
If courthouse is in the city then
|
1. if needed, distance S is pruned to maximal value (16 or 10
for communism), 
2. then halved and rounded down. |
|
3.13 |
If capital does not exist then distance is always considered as maximal (16
or 10). |
3.20 |
Bribing barbarian cities:
Formula 3.1 applies (there is
usually no barbarian gold (G=0) and no barbarian capital
(S=16; see 3.23)). There is no price halved as I stated
before, but "city was yours before" applies if
needed.)
All aditional modifiers apply if you take following notes
into account: |
3.21 |
Disorder never originates in barbarian cities. (??) |
3.22 |
It is not possible to subvert a barbarian city (I
suppose diplomatic relationship with
barbarians is ever considered as "no
contact" or "war" ). |
3.23 |
Barbarians never have techs (??), and so they can't be under
communism (see 3.11) |
4. Bribing units |
4.2 |
Stacked units cannot be bribed or sabotaged. A unit is stacked if
it share one square with ANY other(s) (overland, naval,
aerial) unit. |
4.3 |
Dip/spy may be bribed the same way as other units. |
4.4 |
You get a non-unit if you bribe a unit that is closer to an enemy
city than any your city. |
4.5 |
Dip/spy moves to the point where bribed
unit stays and loses only corresponding number of
movement points. The bribed unit is available immediately
and has full number of movement points, but its injury is
not healed. |
4.6 |
Unit residing in a city cannot be bribed (i.
e. cannot be bribed separately, only with all city). |
4.7 Formula for bribing units: |
GR = DF * GF * S
Where
|
GR |
= gold required to bribe |
|
S |
= shield cost of the unit (see 4.13) |
|
DF |
= 37.5 / (D+2) (distance
factor) |
|
GF |
= 1+G / 750
(gold factor) |
|
G |
= gold of civ that is bribed |
|
D |
= the distance between unit that is bribed and his
capital (see 4.10; see 4.31-4.35); |
|
4.10 Notes |
Maximal values for the distance "D":
max. D |
government of the civ of dip/spy |
10 | communism |
16 | other |
|
Government(communism) of a civ whose units are bribed has no effect
for bribing of units. (see 3.11) ) |
4.11 |
Unlike bribing cities, the cost for bribing unit is the same for
dip/spy and doesn't depend on veteran status. |
4.12 |
If capital does not exist then distance is always considered as
maximal (16 or 10). |
4.13 |
The cost to bribe units with a role=5 (settler, engineer) is
double that of other units. |
4.20 Bribing barbarian units: |
Formula 4.1 applies (there is
usually no barbarian gold (G=0) and no barbarian capital).
Way to measure distance between a unit and the capital (use
in both bribing-formulas (3.1 and 4.1)): |
4.31 |
Imagine Civ2-map turned by 45 degrees. Then you see that map is a
simple grid of squares. Then use 4.32 or 4.33 (both are equal). |
4.32 |
Take the "rectangle" defined by the position of the unit
and the position of the city (all sides of rectangle are
built by squares connected by lines, not by by edges).
distance = (length of longer side of rectangle)
+ 0.5 * (length of shorter side of rectangle)
Only integer part of distance is considered. |
4.33 |
Take the "rhomboid" defined by the position of the unit
and the position of the city (two sides of rhomboid are
built by squares connected by lines ("straight sides"
), other two sides are built by squares connected by
edges ("diagonal sides" ); note: the rhomboid
is included in the rectangle that came up in 4.33).
distance = (length of straight side of rhomboid)
+ 1.5 * (length of diagonal side of rhomboid) .
Only integer part of distance is considered. |
4.35 |
This method of measuring the distance between two squares is
valid for all Civilization. |
4.4 |
Distance |
1 |
2 |
3 |
4 |
5 |
6 |
7 |
8 |
9 |
10 |
11 |
12 |
13 |
14 |
15 |
16 |
unit |
125 |
93.5 |
75 |
62.5 |
53.5 |
46.5 |
41.5 |
37.5 |
34 |
31 |
28.5 |
26.5 |
25 |
23 |
22 |
20.5 |
city
(dip) |
N/A |
200 |
166 |
142 |
125 |
11 |
100 |
90 |
83 |
76 |
71 |
66 |
62 |
58 |
55 |
52 |
city
(spy) |
N/A |
167 |
139 |
119 |
105 |
93 |
84 |
75 |
70 |
64 |
60 |
55 |
52 |
50 |
46 |
44 |
city
(vet spy) |
N/A |
134 |
111 |
95 |
84 |
74 |
67 |
60 |
56 |
51 |
48 |
44 |
42 |
39 |
37 |
35 |
|
|
2nd row
applies to formula 4.1 (10 shield-unit, 0 gold),
3rd to 5th rows apply to 3.1
(1-sized city, 0 gold). |
Comparison of Diplomat and Spy |
5.1 |
Diplomat |
Action |
Spy |
1 |
visibility |
2 |
2 |
moving rate |
3 |
yes not lost |
bribe unit |
yes not lost |
N/A |
sabotage unit |
may be lost |
lost |
establish embassy |
not lost |
lost |
investigate city |
not lost |
no choice success guarr. if no dip/spy
in city once per city lost |
steal technology |
"first time in city" choice ("specify
advance" ) or no choice ("any will do" )
success guarr. if no dip/spy in city (see 7.2)
once per city may be lost |
"next in city" choice
may not to be successful
any times per city may be lost |
no choice success guaranteed lost |
industrial sabotage |
"use her judgement"
no choice success guaranteed may be lost(lower
probability) |
"give primary target" choice of target
may not to be successful may be lost(higher probability) |
full price lost |
incite a revolt |
5/6 (2/3
if veteran) of price
|
N/A |
poison water supply |
may be lost |
N/A |
plant nuclear device |
may not to be successful
may be lost |
|
5.2 |
Success (I don't mean survival) is guaranteed if noticed in the table and for following actions:
bribe unit, sabotage unit,
establish embassy, investigate city, incite a revolt/subvert city (full
success: with gold and advance plunder),poison water supply. |
7. About spy in general |
7.1 |
It is possible to divide spy's mission into three parts:
Firstly, a spy may be or may not to be captured before completing
her mission. Secondly,
|
her attempt may be foiled by enemy
dip/spy positioned in the city |
for steal technology/"any
will do" mission only (see 11.2) |
|
she completes mission |
for all other missions |
Thirdly, she may be or may not to be captured after completing her
mission.
??? I never saw a dip/spy to be foiled in
technology/"specify advance" mission |
7.3 |
Spy may be lost (captured) in all dangerous actions (i.e. actions
where a spy may be captured ): sabotage unit, steal
technology, industrial sabotage, incite a revolt/subvert
city, poison water supply. If she is not lost in that
action, then she is moved to her nearest city, she gets
veteran status and she loses remaining movements points.
|
7.4 |
Veterans are 50% more effective than non-vets when they perform any task.
SlowThinker: hmm, hmm...really ANY? |
Sabotage unit |
8.1 |
Spy may sabotage enemy's units. Attacked unit lose a half of
remaining hit points (rounded down, not affected by
veteran status).
|
8.11 |
How is the probability that a spy will
survive a sabotage? (50%?) Does it depend on the Vet status? |
9. Establish embassy. |
Contrary to what the menu says,
establishing an embassy costs a spy 1/3 of a movemen. |
Investigate city |
10.1 |
Contrary to what the menu says,
investigating a city costs a spy 1/3 of a movement point. |
11. Steal technology |
11.1 |
Once you steal technology from certain city (with spy or diplomat),
this city gets a flag that affects all next (for all
remaining game??) tries (of ALL civs) to steal technology from this city:
diplomats are prevented from doing it and spies are not
able to precise an advance (citizens are "vigilent
and wary" ).
Xin Yu:Some flags do
disappear over time. I once had a civ occupied my city,
but after several turns I could not buy it back for half
price. I wonder there is a small chance each turn to
eliminate the 'previous civ' flag. This could be also
true for 'tech stolen' flag, or even trade merchandise
availability. |
11.2 |
Diplomats and Spies stationed in cities have a chance to thwart
"steal technology" attempts by enemy diplomats/spies
(message: "espionage attempt foiled..." ).
Diplomat (or veteran diplomat) has a 20% chance to do so
per attempt, spy have 40%, veteran spy 60%.
This feature is cumulated: for example, chance to steal with
one diplomat in the city is 0.8 (100%-20%=80%), with one
vet spy is 0.4. Therefore, the chance to steal is 12.8% (0.128=0.8*0.4*0.4)
if one dip and two vet spies are in the city.
See 7.2
|
11.3 |
Dip/spy is useless against all other (except
11.2) actions of opponent's dips/spies(?). Steal
technology/"specify advance" mission too??
|
11.4 |
If dip/spy is not succesfull due to 11.2,
then dip/spy lose his remaining movement points only. No
other effect: dip/spy survive and no international
incident occurs.
|
11.5 |
Unknown: A sentried spy is as valuable as a fortified spy against
espionage attempts. (However, you may prefer to have it fortified.
Please see the threads about "veteran diplomats and
spies".)(I
don't understand it well. I found it in one Civ2-strategy-archived
thread. But I didn't find a "veteran diplomats and
spies" thread. I think that archived threads are
sometimes lost.)
Smash: a diplomat
seems to stand a better chance at thwarting if they are
in "sleep" mode. Don't think this effects
inciting revolts though. |
11.6 |
If there is no technology to steal then
dip/spy lose 1 movement point. No other effect. |
11.12 |
Does success and survival of spy depend on
number of thefts from a specific city? (is there "more
flags"?) |
| 11.13 |
How is probability to survive/to be
succesfull in each situation (specify advance, first
theft in a city, additional theft)? Do probabilities
depend on those situations or not? |
11.15 |
How veteran status affects success and
survival? |
11.16 |
How dip/spy choose an advance to steal? By
"AI value" in rules.txt? |
Do city walls affect probabilities? |
The Mad Viking: My
son pointed out that his spies more often get captured
when stealing tech / sabotaging a city that has walls. I
have started paying attention to this and think he may be
right.
12. Industrial sabotage |
Thorough discussion and tests about sabotage are here: |
debate:
In response to the sabotage thing
Poisoning and sabotaging
12.1 |
An improvement will be destroyed or shield production will
be set to zero ("production sabotaged" ).
|
12.2 |
It is not
possible to sabotage SDI Defense, Palace a
nd WoW's.
My Wife
Hates CIV: hmmm.... out of more than 100 tests, I did
destroy an SDI with a spy unit. ?? I can't figure out how
to repeat it. It does not seem to matter what size the
city is, techs the target civ has, units present or not...
strange.
I setup a city size 1, gave it a SDI. Placed another CIV
spy next to it and tried. 'SDI complex destroyed'. I was
going to take a screen shot but figured it was easy to
repeat again. I'm still playing with it. |
12.3 |
With a spy
you may choose between "give primary target" or
"use her judgement".
("Primary target"
is not an exact expression, "only target" would
be better: spy will never try to sabotage other thing
than primary target.) |
12.4 |
If there is no improvement you can
sabotage in the city, then dip or spy+"use her
judgement" will repeatedly sabotage the production,
although shield progress may be 0. You won't have the
option between "give primary target" and "use
her judgement" if spy is sabotaging.
|
12.5 |
Dip or spy+"use her judgement"
will never sabotage a production if shield progress is 0
(except 12.4): it means only one such attack per turn. |
12.13 |
Probability that spy+"use her
judgement" will be captured is 50% for a non-vet spy
and 25% for a vet spy. |
12.11 |
What is the probability that spy+"give
primary target" will be successfull?
What is the probability that spy+"give
primary target" will be lost?(20%?) |
12.14 |
What is the probability that diplomat/spy+"use
her judgement" will choose to sabotage production?
|
12.15 |
Do all improvements have the same
probability to be chosen for a diplomat/spy+"use her
judgement" sabotage? |
| 12.16 |
How veteran status affects success and
survival?
>
Scouse Gits says it affects success |
12.17 |
If you choose "give primary target"
against the capital or walled city, then a message "Attempting
sabotage in enemy capital or against city walls is very
risky" appears. How much it lowers probability of a
success? Have city walls and capital similar effect in
other types of missions? |
13. Poison water supply |
13.1 |
Spy may "Poison water supply" in a city. It decreases
city size by 1. |
13.2
| It is not possible to poison if size of city is 1. |
13.3 |
Probability
that spy will be captured is 33% for a vet spy (doesn't
depend on the capital status), 50% for a non-vet spy
attacking non-capital, 67% for a non-vet spy
attacking capital. |
14. Plant nuclear device |
14.1 |
Not compiled yet. |
Spys and nuclear devices?
Sabotaging SDI Defenses
21. Short tips |
21.1 |
You may find out the position of enemy's capital using
formulas determining amount of gold for bribing. (And
remember 1.3) |
21.2 |
Don't forget to 4.4. |
21.3 |
Terrain doesn't affect bribing cost. Bribe preferentially units/cities
on rough terrain. |
21.4 |
A useful trick when you want your spy/diplomat home quickly is to
have it expelled. |
21.5 |
Summary for bribing cities: Destroy courthouse, destroy enough
happiness improvements to make the the city go into
revolt, buy from the side of the city away from the
capital, use a vet spy to buy. |
31 False statements |
It is not true that
| 31.1 |
expelling is available in deity only. |
3.1.2 |
a number of happy citizen and unexpired wonders raises the bribery cost. |
31.3. |
if enemy has no palace then distance = 32
vet staus of a dip has effect on
the bribing cost (source:Scrolls of Ancient Wisdom (Winkler)
. See 3.13 and 3.1. |
3.14 |
dip and spy may only be expelled
when they are in your territory, which is in this
case defined as being nearer to one of your
cities than to one of its own (source: original message in Civ2 game).
"ANY other civilization" in 2.34 is important. |
3.15 |
cost of bribe of partisan is upped. |
3.16 |
only diplomats (not spies) causes a flag mentioned in 1.11. |
3.17 |
In formula 3.1 (formula for bribing cities),
instead of "if dip/spy's civ was the last
owner of the city before the curent owner"
it should be, "city was founded by you"
In other words, you don't get a discount if you
capture a city, lose it, and bribe it back
|