Session Start: Tue Oct 22 15:03:02 2002 Session Ident: #civ3dem [15:03] * Now talking in #civ3dem [15:03] * E_T_1 is now known as E_T_Busy [16:04] * adaMada has joined #civ3dem [16:04] hey E_T [16:07] * Arnelos has joined #civ3dem [16:07] hello [16:07] hello? [16:10] hey arnelos [16:10] sorry [16:10] i was afk [16:10] hey [16:10] where is everyone? [16:11] it's 22:11 GMT by my count... [16:11] um... [16:11] I think you might be off by two hours :D [16:11] I did some math yesterday, and that's what I got [16:11] i'll check now [16:12] EDT = GMT - 4... it's 4:11 p.m. here [16:12] yep [16:12] exactly [16:12] so... [16:12] 4:11 = 16:11 = 22:11 GMT [16:12] so, back to my original question :) [16:13] six plus four is 22 :D? [16:13] where is everyone? :-P :-) [16:13] oops [16:13] lol, i made that mistake yesterday too [16:13] yeah... that's dumb of me isn't it? [16:13] eh, no biggie [16:13] i won't tell [16:13] lol [16:13] ok, back to playing the Iroqouis :) [16:14] do you have half a sec? [16:15] sure [16:15] what's up? [16:15] I'm here, Hi [16:15] hey E_T [16:15] Arnelos, I've got a confession to make [16:15] oh? [16:15] I'm cutting & Pastin the orders now. [16:15] I've read every post on the Con COn in great detail -- except yours, which I've only skimmed [16:16] that's fine [16:16] no prob [16:16] I may be able to read through it all the way through before I submit my suggestions... [16:16] ok [16:16] but if not, is there any one or two things you'd like to point me to? [16:16] not a big deal... most of what I wrote NYE has done a pretty good job of responding to it seems [16:16] I haven't really been able to deal woth the New Con except reading it. [16:17] ok [16:17] I think both Togas and NYE are cool with most of my superficial comments... the one where Togas and I apparently disagree is about how he wrote the approvals for the FAM doing various things [16:17] yea, saw it [16:17] I thought 2200 GMT was 5PM EDT. [16:18] it's 6 p.m. EDT... my bad [16:18] saw the debate, never really got to agree [16:18] E_T, 6 PM I think [16:18] i mean, never really got to post [16:18] ah [16:18] but I'd have to agree with Togas and NYE [16:18] good, It will alow me to double check my orders [16:18] well, NYE didn't really comment on that issue specifically [16:19] really? [16:19] I know Togas did, thought he did too [16:19] I'll be back in a while, I still have stuff to do [16:19] I don't remember NYE commenting on that specifically, but I could have missed it [16:19] well, I did see that, and did propose one or two changes in that area but probably not ones that'll make you any happier :) [16:19] even if everyone else agrees [16:19] but, having said that, was there anything else major? [16:19] * CiverDan has joined #civ3dem [16:20] are we good to go in 40 mins today [16:20] Perhaps it's just me... but I have an inherent uneasiness about creating such a wishy-washy "approval" scheme that allows the FAM to pick and choose like a kid trying to get his parents to fight [16:20] Oh, about the new Con, I do have issues with the grouping of jobs for the Domestic Minister. Too much for him to do [16:20] E_T, he can appoint deputies [16:20] Civer, an hour and 40 I think :) [16:20] I mean... if it's going to be that wishy-washy, why not just let the FAM decide on his own and make him account for his decision? [16:20] Arnelos, I hear your complaints [16:21] k [16:21] but I think the clause is ok [16:21] yes, it is a bit wishy-washy... but the major power lies with the FAM [16:21] and if the INTENT is to make it so that both SMC and the President have to agree, why not say that? [16:22] because that's not the intent :) [16:22] I mean, the SMC and President have to agree in order to overturn a FAM decision... that's precisely what Togas seems to be arguing [16:22] The intent is to make someone else agree, but ALSO to ensure that one peace-bent (or war-bent) SMC can't screw things up [16:22] basically [16:22] And if the FAM wants to go straight to the Pres, well, that's allowed... [16:22] exactly -- they have to agree to overturn it [16:23] precisely... why not just say that? [16:23] because that's not exactly the intent [16:23] that's the result [16:23] but not necessarially the intent [16:23] the INTENT is for one of them to have to AGREE to GO WITH IT [16:23] that would at least make the line less confusing, even if it won't answer my concern that I don't like it :-P [16:23] the result is that if they both disagree, it won't help [16:23] lol, perhaps, but I think what we have is fine [16:24] I understand your concern -- I just don't share it :) [16:24] well, I don't like wishy-washy rules like that... but if you guys insist on it, ok :-P :-) [16:24] I just think you could at least make the intent clearer... [16:25] I can tell from what others said that I'm not the only person who READ IT differently than you intended it [16:26] lol [16:27] just think of it like this... [16:27] it's supposed to be a check on the FAM, NOT a power of the Pres or SMC [16:27] How? [16:27] I don't see any wording that could help... [16:27] I mean "or"'s pretty short :D [16:28] it's just that it was interpreted different ways by different people upon reading it... GENERALLY, it's nice to avoid that and make it universally understood the same way when possible... that's not always possible, of course ;) [16:28] and the fact that the COURT knows what you meant means it's fine legally [16:29] it's just that this is precisely the type of thing that an author won't catch in their own writing... because the author always looks at the line and already knows what he meant... the reader may see something different [16:29] that said, a simple explanation from Togas cleared up the issue when we were confused :-) [16:33] Ok... heading off to play Civ3 for the next 2 hours ;p [16:33] Shouldn't giving away a city in negotiation require more approval than just FAM and DM/pres? [16:34] * Arnelos is now known as Arn_AFK [16:34] a worker fine, but a City? [16:37] sorry, I was away for a sec [16:37] np [16:38] see it [16:38] we place a lot of power with the President in this document [16:39] yes [16:39] he can basically decide in lou of many other ministers deciding [16:39] having said that, if he does make poor decisions, the people will probably reflect that :) [16:39] true [16:39] and A) impeach, or B) vote him out of office [16:40] to be honest, it's not the most abuse-prone power we've given the guy, so I'm personally not that worried [16:40] me meither [16:40] most presidents will tell the FAM to ask the senate, I think [16:40] neither [16:41] I dont think honestly, that a pres and FAM would act bilaterally to give away a vity [16:41] city [16:42] yea [16:43] about the slider control...would like some input from others there [16:43] though he prob should have final say...otherwise it might take forever to decide [16:44] it dont matter that much not...since we are at 0% sci w/one scientist [16:44] *now [16:44] but if/once we research on our own.. [16:45] again, we leave the power in the hands of the president, but we don't intend for him to use it on his own [16:45] yeah..i agree [16:45] thats the intent [16:46] of course, the president doesn't have to follow the intent... [16:46] very true [16:46] I'm working on Getting Libraries up and running [16:46] but I think part of the presidency will become the ability to excersize his powers responsibility [16:46] Back for a bit [16:46] E_T, I'm happy to hear it -- we really need the science :) [16:47] brb..im gonna review the save [16:48] Have you seen my list for the new save? [16:48] yes [16:48] * dejon has joined #civ3dem [16:48] Howdy [16:48] hey [16:48] I'm working on getting WLKD and then the libs will build faster. [16:49] i just wanna refresh myself on h9ow many units/where they are [16:49] * MrWIA has joined #civ3dem [16:49] Hello all. [16:49] Hi Pres [16:49] * CiverDan has left #civ3dem [16:49] Let me get yp and running with saves etc. [16:49] hello [16:49] BRB [16:49] here and gone, sheesh [16:50] hey MWIA [16:50] Gotta downlaod your save E_T :p [16:50] MWIA, is it another hour or not? [16:50] Thanks [16:50] 2100 GMT or 2200? [16:51] No - it should be in 10 mins [16:51] 2200GMT [16:51] really? [16:51] GMT or UK Time? [16:51] oh well, doesn't matter :) [16:51] ada - you sound doubtful... [16:51] everyone seems to think it's different, so... [16:51] The orders I have up should be good as they are, but they could be double checked..... [16:52] This time was 2150 yesterday, so unless there has been a dramatic change in 24 hours... [16:52] MrWIA is on NZ time [16:52] We should get a time guidelines thread topped [16:52] sounds good [16:53] http://www.greenwichmeantime.com/ gives it another hour [16:53] that's the only reason i'm unsure [16:53] they might be wrong, though [16:53] either way, i'm ready :) [16:53] well, i'd have to look over Togas' orders, but... [16:53] i'm here either way [16:53] Crazy! It IS 8:53! WTF?! [16:54] lol, MWIA, don't ask me :) [16:54] Oh well, another hour then. [16:54] MWIA, the site might be wrong [16:54] you should probably just go now, though Arnelos now thinks he's got another hour... [16:54] But that means two of them are http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/ [16:55] Why is everyone here so early in that case? [16:55] I learned to come an hour early several chats ago.. ;-) [16:55] I'm working and checking when I can [16:55] I just came in because I was at my comp [16:55] * rubymaser has joined #civ3dem [16:55] Ah - I WILL wait an hour then. [16:55] Con COn revisions :) [16:55] They start early or late 50% of the time [16:56] Means I can rest a bit - for some reason I am absolutely knackered this morning. [16:56] (Because someone always has the time wrong) [16:56] * rubymaser has quit IRC (Quit) [16:56] * rubymaser has joined #civ3dem [16:56] It should be a bit better once Daylight Savings Time ends - typical culprit [16:57] yep [16:57] 'k, later MWIA [16:57] * Togas has joined #civ3dem [16:57] hey Togas :) [16:57] hello [16:57] See - people keep showing up! Hi Togas [16:58] * CiverDan has joined #civ3dem [16:58] back [16:59] * MrWIA is now known as WIArestin [16:59] * WIArestin is now known as WIA-AWOL [16:59] :D [16:59] :P [16:59] Not really, but WIArestin' doesn't fit. [16:59] * dejon is now known as dejon_nap [17:00] Anything to discuss, Togas, or can I go and sleep for an hour? [17:00] I'll be back in a while, still some stuff to do on the orders, mainly double checking........ [17:01] another hour to go? is the GMT at apolyton wrong? [17:01] sleep sounds good right now :) [17:02] I'm going by http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/ or www.greenwichmeantime.com [17:03] rubymaster, in other words - yes [17:03] gotcha [17:03] Next time I'll do what OPD did and post all the different times for the chat, including that odd timezone that Poly is. [17:04] OK - sleeping now. Back in 50 mins or so. [17:04] I think it should be a permanant, one post topped thread [17:05] Maybe it should....but although it says I have mod powers - I really don't, so I need to PM MarkG again. [17:06] Oh - you talk in your sleep too? ;-) [17:07] Still trying to catch up.. will be asleep soon, I assure you :) [17:07] just reviewed save... [17:07] MWIA, didn't you use them? [17:07] on that orders thread? [17:08] No wait... I DO have mod options! Huzzah!!!! [17:08] lol [17:08] This means I get a different colour and a cross by my name in the chat! :D [17:09] ah, the perks [17:09] It [17:09] It's always the little things... [17:10] used to be that people got excited by company cars - how times have changed. [17:10] * dejon_nap is now known as dijon [17:10] oops -old form [17:10] * dijon is now known as dejon [17:11] * dejon can't sleep - can't wait for turnchat [17:11] I was lookin at the orders..how many offensive units we puttin near teh english...(i know the talk has been war w/france) but if we do this we have to prepare for possiblility of alliances against us [17:12] Aggie has provided defensive stacks for the central and far east areas [17:12] ok... [17:12] (in case of just such a situation) [17:12] that makes me feel better [17:13] I believe they were to be 5 knights each, but I don't recall which town they're in [17:14] and one unit at least in all currently undefended coastal towns too i assume [17:14] I assume too - have to check - where is that "plans for France" thread again... [17:15] im lookign now [17:15] im looking war war acad thread now [17:15] http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64622 [17:15] * Kloreep has joined #civ3dem [17:16] hey Kloreep [17:16] Hi. [17:16] Hi - 42 mins to go... [17:17] * Kloreep is confused. [17:17] yeha 5 wc (van be upgraded) in contagion [17:17] Wasn't the turnchat supposed to start at 4:00? [17:17] *can [17:17] GMT on 'poly is WRONG [17:17] see www.greenwichmeantime.com [17:19] Ah yes, there we go - http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64938 [17:28] 2 of undefended SE city are building musket..though may may have to rush them is worse case scenerio [17:29] * lmtoops has joined #civ3dem [17:29] we could just move a knight to two also.. [17:29] of [17:29] but anyways [17:29] I'm finding a few things in my double chack, still have 2/3rds left to go. Back to the mill....... [17:31] sorry Dan, afk there for a min - just be sure to mention potential weaknesses to the appropriate Ministers [17:32] sure [17:33] they prob have been taken care of but it dont hurt to check [17:33] very true [17:34] * Arn_AFK has quit IRC (Ping timeout) [17:39] * lmtoops has left #civ3dem [17:43] * dejon is now known as dejon_AFK [17:44] * donegeal has joined #civ3dem [17:44] Hi Donegeal. [17:46] hello... how is the chat going? [17:46] it hasnt really started yet [17:46] going nowher [17:46] good... gotta bring up the current save... [17:47] I'm done double checking, All I have to do is cut and paste and the CP orders will be done......YEAH!!!! [17:48] Woo Hoo - I picked up Milan Hejduk in my pool! [17:48] yeah!! [17:48] (sorry, off topic) [17:51] * OPD has joined #civ3dem [17:51] lo [17:52] good turn out so far [17:52] Hi. [17:52] lo OPD [17:52] hello, but I must be off to fight traffic. later all [17:52] * rubymaser has quit IRC (Quit) [17:53] good turnout, but not much in the way of activity... [17:53] nope [17:54] 4 mins... [17:54] a few new faces, a few old timers [17:54] will aggie be here? [17:54] I guess this is what was meant by a " relaxed chat" [17:55] MWIA became the mod yesterday [17:56] Give them a break. It's still several minutes till the official starting time, and it's the first chat for this term. [17:56] * WIA-AWOL is now known as WIA [17:56] and so it was taken from me. I feel all weak and powerless [17:56] IT doesn't look like much power anyway... [17:56] * WIA offers to top and detop a thread continuously for OPD... [17:56] I was hoping MarkG would sort of forget to take my mod powers away [17:56] loll [17:57] poor OPD :) [17:57] lol top the what do we look like thread [17:57] Quote: MrWIA - "No wait... I DO have mod options! Huzzah!!!!" [17:57] lol [17:57] * dejon_AFK grins [17:57] Perhaps I will... [17:57] * dejon_AFK is now known as dejon [17:57] I was wiondering about that thread.. [17:57] wondering [17:59] I used to think I was quite old compared to other demo gamers but it appears I'm one of the younger ones [18:00] do you get to customise your Avatar after 300 post? [18:00] * OPD is now known as OPDaway [18:00] no 500 [18:00] damn.... [18:00] CP orders are posted! [18:00] 300 gets you the title of "Prince", though. [18:00] I have to do a few things than be right back [18:00] Great! [18:01] im only a chiefton... [18:01] * E_T_Busy is now known as E_T_AFK [18:01] I forsee many posts forthcoming from donegeal... [18:01] I know... I'm looking forward to discussing my relationship to the throne after 4 more posts... [18:02] I think I've almost broken 1300 [18:02] ok... seeing as you don't need all of them, care to give me some? [18:02] I'm at, what? 2500+? [18:02] Are the post counts/title listed somewhere? [18:03] In your profile [18:04] OK... who's missing? OPD and E_T [18:04] WIA, yea, but you do the other demogames too [18:04] I only do this one [18:04] yep [18:04] Hence the large PC in just under a year. [18:05] lol, my posts per days are screwed because I got about 300 posts three years ago [18:05] then left poly for three years [18:05] * Kloreep is still at a measly 200. :( [18:05] and only started posting again now [18:05] That's like Apoc - he signed up ages ago. [18:05] 1969 :D [18:05] ;) [18:05] Kloreep - worship the Demo game and it will pay you back. :D [18:06] I have been. I would be at 50 or less if it weren't for the demogame. :) [18:06] I surfed the board since apolyton started. but only signed up a couple of weeks ago [18:06] Kloreep -- hey, I got AT LEAST twenty posts off the Con Con alon [18:06] I 2 b -- changed to "The Supreme Military Commander may not use a Great Leader to form an army without approval of the Senate. The Senate alone decides if, when, and where a Great Leader may rush a project" [18:06] oops [18:06] nevermind [18:06] lol, keep hitting the damn insert key [18:07] Dan - similar story here, I got what - 30-odd posts? (oh well) [18:07] ada - so THAT's why you to a high PC ;) [18:08] * WIA slaps OPDaway around a bit with a large trout [18:08] * WIA slaps E_T_AFK around a bit with a large trout [18:08] Did I do that? [18:08] I don't really want to start without them. [18:08] lol [18:09] you all should see MWIA in the chats after he's been up all night ;) [18:09] the crazy-time chats [18:09] those are fun fun :D [18:09] Which WIA do you refer to? MrWIA, MWIA or MrWhereItsAt (the REAL insane one)? [18:09] I can't keep em straight [18:09] Neither can I :D [18:10] one of them took away my OPship of this channel yesterday, so he's def. not cool [18:10] MrWIA booted the other two, so he's sorta weird [18:10] lol [18:10] hello [18:10] HI E_T [18:10] Only OPD, then we can go for it! [18:10] oh great, we have a MPP (Multiple-Personality President) [18:11] Now I think there's only SMC orders for this end of term. [18:11] * E_T_AFK is now known as E_T_1 [18:11] Anyone playing along? Anyone loading the saves up when I post them? [18:11] me... [18:11] oui (yes) [18:11] I'll be loading and looking at stuff [18:11] I do. [18:12] well... I've got to go everyone :) [18:12] I won't be playing along, except some [18:12] As normal, it's dinner time at the most crucial part of the chat [18:12] like I said, normal :D [18:12] later everyone [18:12] good luck [18:12] ah... eat infront of the computer... [18:12] cya ada [18:12] Great.... can I get at least one person to watch the French - if they get Gunpowder and/or road that Saltpeter, we need to know [18:12] * adaMada is now known as afk-ada [18:13] ok [18:13] Seeya soon ada [18:13] noted - I intend to check for Navigation as a first priority [18:13] Thanks guys. [18:14] I may as well start.... it's getting closer to lunch time here... [18:14] 4 Chat starts [18:14] 4 Carrying out SMC orders for 700AD [18:14] I have one thing for turn 0 besides the Rushes [18:14] 4WC in HII go to Macross [18:15] Sure, E_T. I will pause at the end of all other orders much as Apoc has been doing. [18:15] good [18:15] it's in the orders..... [18:15] 4WC in Delmonte and chiquita go to HII [18:16] 4Catapult in Gaia goto Jerusalem [18:16] 4SMC orders done [18:16] 4CP orders started. [18:17] E_T - just those two Courthouse rushes? [18:17] and the WF change in Gaia [18:17] Sorry - Courthous and Cathedral [18:17] Everything else is in the new save [18:18] WF change? Where is that? [18:18] 4Arbela - Rush Courthouse for 172L [18:19] in 700AD orders [18:19] 12Gaia - WF to 2-4-5-6-7-8-10-16 + 1Tax + 1Ent. [18:20] 4 Gaia - WF to 2-4-5-6-7-8-10-16 + 1Tax + 1Ent [18:21] 4Jerusalem - Rush Cathedral for 20 Lytons [18:21] 4 CP orders done [18:21] Looking for more orders... [18:21] * Apoc has joined #civ3dem [18:22] 4 No more orders I can see - turn ends in 2 mins. [18:22] Heya [18:22] Hi APOC! [18:22] what about PW? [18:22] done already? [18:22] None for 700 AD. [18:22] oh IC.. [18:22] ic it now [18:22] Yes, I did all the 700 AD orders Friday. [18:23] "Fly me to the Moon: is such a good track for this relaxed chat :D [18:23] 12cp good to go [18:23] 4 45s till end of turn [18:23] 12 Ok to end [18:23] Anyway, yes, I say we ask the Germans to help us with the English. [18:24] (just kidding) (joke on Apoc) [18:24] Otto's liable to turn on you [18:24] 4 Turn 700 AD ended [18:24] YEAH! [18:25] Fly me to the Moon really fits in with the movie. [18:25] Which movie? [18:25] 4 Aztecs shifting around but stay in their own borders [18:25] End of Evangelion of course. [18:25]