Start of #Apolyton buffer: Wed Nov 07 14:13:04 2001 *** Now talking in #Apolyton *** Soren_Johnson_Firaxis has joined #Apolyton Hello? sorry, our web access went down... ...so I had to drive home and log on here. thanks... Why are the AI such bastards when it comes to agreeing terms for exchanging resources? different resources have different values for the AI... ...so it is sometimes hard to get a 1-for-1 trade... OK, but even over luxuries, they try and extort me... no, even luxuries have different values becase... ...luxuries are worth more to civs with more cities. I think the question everyone really want to ask is... Will there ever be multiplayer in civ3 ... and not in an expension pack please sorry, I am not at liberty to discuss multiplayer... ...we've got some great idea, though! soren:is corruption too high for the AI too? The AI deals with corruption just like the human... ...although more or less according to difficulty level *raises his hand* yes sheltem? Does the A cheat persay, gain extra resources over the play, or does it rely on simple efficency to beat you? Sheltem: The AI gets no gameplay bonuses at Prince... ...at other levels there are growth, production, science bonuses or penalties thanks :) *** ACS_MarkG sets mode: +m *** ACS_MarkG sets mode: +v Soren_Johnson_Firaxis ok, let's breathe for a while :) sorry, i am having trouble keeping up? :) well that was for everyone hi Mark everyone, Welcome to our Civ3 AI Chat with Soren Johnson I will make an effort to do this unmoderated i would like to ask from everyone to not flood Soren with questions and not post unrelated stuff so how will this work? Well, if everyone cooperates, it will be an open chat :) k Ok,let's give it a try, i'll put on a question from korn first and then open the chat ok The barbarian AI seems to almost always go for the closest city, one time the barbarians appeared at my doorstep with around fifty units and they all attacked a size one city with no improvements when my undefended capital was just two squares away and it was working on the pyarmids. If the city is down to size one and doesn't have any thing in i t then the barbarians should either bypass it and attack a better city or have a small chance for dest *** ACS_MarkG sets mode: -m that is true... the barbarian AI is quite rudimentary... they are barbarians after all? :) ...but that is on purpose. THey are barbarians after all... Does that not happen with the actuall civs? the barbarian combat AI is much different from the civ combat AI's... I would compare the barbarian AI more to, say, a FPS AI... ...or at least a bad FPS AI. Ok, so what kind of things does the AI take in mind to choose where to attack? Mark: the barbarian or civ AI? the Civ AI well, the civ AI looks at terrain, proximity of its own units, resources, location, continent info, etc... * Jannekorv wonders if the cpu gets mad on him when he builds his cities close to the cpu`s cities, on purpose of taking them over with culture? I'm afraid the AI doesn't "get mad" :) cultural acquisition of cities does not make the AI get mad b/c it is not really directly under the user's control (unlike capturing a city) hold it thechief for a moment, thanks let's get the upgrades/patches question out of the way no Soren, what decisions are there right now for the patches? oh sorry... we are working on a patch and it will address bugs and interface issues first as well as a few balance and AI holes... Any hint of a release date? ...sorry, I can't be too specific b/c we don't want to promise anything until it gets through testing... Ok, thanks upgrade on the editor? the editory will be upgraded soon although I am not sure if it will be in the first patch... But we're talking before christmas for the patch right? yes, before X-mas yes, sam, Jeff Morris mentioned "end of month"(this month). thechief, please ask Is simple trespassing enough of an excuse to start a war with an AI player without losing points with other AI players. In other words, I don't want to ruin my reputation in the long run to win by the UN vote. Soren_Johnson_Firaxis: i've noticed that alot of times, the AI seems to really like to share techs with other AI civs. . but not with the player. It's almost as if, diplomatically, they're ganging up on the player. Is that intentional? connor: the AI does trade techs amongst themselves, but they follow the same rules.... ...for example, if the Romans are willing to trade you the Alphabet for 100 gold... ...then they will only be willing to trade it to the Greeks if the Greeks will also fork over 100 gold. Soren_Johnson_Firaxis: thanks. . :) a follow up question. . . How does the AI determine which tech to research next? the AI picks what tech to research depending on their present needs and their personality... ...thus one civ might prefer military techs while another might prefer infrastructure techs... interesting, and good to know. I'd hoped such was the case. Thanks. :) Soren, does any AI actually try to play to try to get a lead in tech, or do they all just trade constantly...?? The AI tries to get a lead in tech... in fact, one of the few AI tweaks I have done recently is make the AI less willing to trade away a tech which it has exclusively. guest20271, please ask ok, based upon previous statements, i assume there are many AI subsystems. Is there a master system? Does it goal seek (space race, military, cultural victories)? the Great Library is one of the Wonders the AI prefers... if they are under the right set of circumstances (they have met at least 2 other civs...) I guess my question got lost? :-( So if i'm right you can't give ANY detail on what the patch will contain.. ? Vorret: sorry, but I can't talk much about the patch until it is out (it won't be long!) Welll.... that's better than nothing.. it wont be long than "we don't have an eta..." :) thanks *** ACS_MarkG sets mode: +m 30 secs moderation Soren, take your time :) *** ACS_MarkG sets mode: -m Without going into further specifics on the patch, could you rell us if there is a discussion on reducing the corruption levels or not? Corruption levels are one thing we have looked at... and I'll give you a hint: we are NOT increasing corruption. :) :) Yes, well perhaps there should be a level of dependence of corruption on map size...yes? corruption does depend on map size... a lot of people have noted that the AI doesn't respect culture borders and that it will build cities even on the smallest and most unusable patches of land. will we see any change in this? another possible AI tweak will be to have it not build cities when its new borders will be surrounded by a rival civ... or nearly surrounded... I've never gotten a rigth of passage agreement, ol Abe was as happy as could be but he still wouldnt agree. Is this of great importance to the AI? The AI values right of passage agreements according to a) how much land you have and b) if you sahre continents and c) if they like you Soren_Johnson_Firaxis: not d) how badly they want to found a city on the opposite side of your empire? :) connor: that's the idea... Ok :) ive found i can overtake others cities easily by running up right next to its border and building my well only if its new and culture level is low the culture rush is a legit strategy... Another question is about the problem with special units and the way they integrate into the upgrade structure, for example, I can upgrade from Spearmen->Pikemen->Musketmen. But if I was playing the French, I cannot upgrade from Pikemen->Musketeers, and I think the same applies to other UU by the way they are implemented. Is there a way you could sort this out? well, not being able to upgrade TO an unique unit was a design decision b/c of the other benefits of that unit (Golden Ages, for example...) However, the French should be able to upgrade from Pikeman to Rifleman. In other words, it shouldn't "cut the chain" so to speak. The stats of the Privateer unit, are they also a topic for discussion for the patch? what about the f-15 its too late in game imo F-15's are late in the game, but many have argued that a late Golden Age is very powerful... *I've got a AI-strategy question* may i ask it? go nidz-onehalf: sure whats your question? 10Soren --- Is simple trespassing enough of an excuse to start a war with an AI player without losing points with other AI players. In other words, I don't want to ruin my reputation in the long run to win by the UN vote. starting wars over trespassing will not affect your reputation... thanks ...actually, reputation in civ3 works much differently... ...there is no one number anywhere... soren:tell us more differently? please tell more ...it is more an issue of specific actions (breaking trade deals, backing out of military alliances, etc...) ...so the AI will remember not to make a military alliance with you b/c you abused that treaty in the past... can you not outright destroy an enemys city i tried dropping 4-6 icmbs and nothing just brought it to one person and thats it You can't destroy enemy cities with nukes... Nukes do not destroy enemy cities... it used to work that way but it was deemed too powerful. so there is no way of doing it <[DL]Aldrick> Soren_Johnson_Firaxis: Will there be a patch where you add the option to disable viewing the workers do their work? because even with no animations it´s slow as hell on a amd1000 with 512mb ram.. Aldrick, I have an Athlon 700 and I have no speed problems with a screen almost full of workers doing there stuff. Do you have a driver issue or something? workers doing there stuff. Do you have a driver issue or something? [DL]Aldrick: it might be a video card issue, which we are looking into. Many people are experiencing no performance issues on much lower machines. The strange thing is though Soren, I have a GeForce with new drivers on XP and should be having massive speed problems with graphics but it is working beautifully :-) hey, computers are screwy... ...if only the Amiga had won out.. then there would only be one system. :) <^UvaSabre^> Civ 3 = owns :D <^UvaSabre^> Soren_Johnson_Firaxis, let met just say, great job. :) tahnks i mean, thanks <_Bargle_> Has there been any discussion on weather Multiplayer will be added to Civ 3, or perhaps via an expansion? multiplayer! multiplayer! No mp discussion guyes, thanks oh <^UvaSabre^> Soren_Johnson_Firaxis, on friday i played from 2:00 PM to 10:30 PM <^UvaSabre^> is that a bit extreme? :D <^UvaSabre^> imo you dont need multiplay that much UvaSabre, you should have gone for a long playing session ;-) I assume there are several AI subsystems for a given civ? Is there a master AI system that coordinates the others and goal seeks for the civ such as conquest, cultural, space, victory? I noticed that the AI is distributing its workers in its capital quite badly or the sourrounding squares are not irrigated etc. sometimes the AI chooses not to distribute its workers on food tiles if it can't grow (needs a Hospital, for example...) *** ACS_MarkG sets mode: +m 1 min moderated since we had some new people, some new explanations the chat is about AI and the game mechanics it's not about MP, the patch or video card problems thank you for your help *** ACS_MarkG sets mode: -m Have you thought about having it moderated the whole time, and then just having us send you questions, and then you picking the relevant ones'...?? <[DL]Aldrick> Soren_Johnson_Firaxis: It´s more the time it takes to see all workers move around and doing their work, see 100 workers run around your country fixing things takes alot of time, if you could skip that part it would be great :) No driver issue as you can see.. Adrick: Be sure to look at your prefs Soren - whats the situation with the Worker AI. They are always digging up MY improvements when automated... RedFox: If you press "Shift+A" instead of "A" to automate your workers,they will not touch previously existing improvements yeah get rid of em. Have you thought about having it moderated the whole time, and then just having us send you questions, and then you picking the relevant ones'...?? <^UvaSabre^> Soren_Johnson_Firaxis, did you program Queen Elizibeth to be bitchy towards the end? :D Elizabeth is... crafty. Yes, I programmed that! <^UvaSabre^> Soren_Johnson_Firaxis, she was a real bitch to me when i was her best friend for a long time If you do something bad to a civ in the beginning and this civ has not meet any other civ... will the other civbe aware f yiur act ? vorret: depends if that civ is still around by the end of the game... Is there anything you can do to prevent defections, besides culture war. like say 10 military units. the chance of city defections can be lessened by a) troops b) no civil disorder c) we love the king day d) culture and e) distance to respective capitals. e) is especially important. d) culture: of captured city or your civs? Mark: both however, troops are very effective...as a rule of thumb, one troops disuades one citizen from thinking of defecting... defections measure the culture of the two civs in the city itself and as a nation overall Maybe e) should be tuned down : a lot of countries used to have colonies far away from their capital. libredr: yes, and those colonies often revolted Yes but they were not absorbed by other civilizations e) is more attuned to relative, not absolute distance. The point is that the closer you get to his/her capital, the harder it is to keep cities. Sort of like a spring. Soren_Johnson_Firaxis: are you all considering making e) less important? taking over the world on a huge map is virtually impossible. . . the game should be hard, but not impossible. . Soren_Johnson_Firaxis: Could this be nullified by capturing an AI civ's capital? connor: possibly, depends on where the capital is moved to... will civ3 go for a linux version? snailpower, nothing has been decided on that so far 5k tx I assume there are several AI subsystems for a given civ? Is there a master AI system that coordinates the others and goal seeks for the civ such as conquest, cultural, space, victory? There are several AI subsystems: civ-wide, city, unit, tech, etc. ANd they communicate between each other. I discussed this some in my Apolyton interview. indeed you did :) basically, a high-level system will determine a goal, like offense or defense and the lower-level systems will weigh their decisions accordingly (like should I build a Spearman or Archer) http://apolyton.net/misc/interviews/civ3_2sorenjohnson.shtml thank you There has been quite some dissent about the level of 'pop-up' information in the game. Not being told when one of your Wonders expires, just to mention one. Are there any plans to add pop-ups as a preference? Congestion: we have looked at the pop-up issue for the patch. Sorry I have to be so vague... That's ok, I understand. Thanks. no problem.. it is hard to read all the questions <^UvaSabre^> Soren_Johnson_Firaxis, thank you for making some tribes peaceful, seems like they are all out to get me and my bitches :) one thing I have enjoyed while reading threads about the game is that some people think the AI is too peaceful and some think the other way. Hopefully, they feel this way not just from personal perspective but because the AI will vary its strategies from game to game. "Game to game"?!? 'game to game'? randomly or depending on how the game develops? <^UvaSabre^> Soren_Johnson_Firaxis, towards the beginning they are peaceful, then they think they are badass and go all out and demand my pants The AI is more aggressive in some games ??? You mean according to settings of the map and it's situation? yikes. Game to game based on reasoning i hope? :) Sorry missed the begining. Have Soren been informed about the senseless moving of all AI units that slows down the game? sorry about all the "senseless" unit movement. Basically, if the AI has nothing to do with its offensive units, they jsut "patrol." We are looking at ways to speed this up... * We are looking at ways to speed this up...* oh thank you!! this was majorly slowing down the end game, ESP on a huge map.. . and ESP if there is a war going on, having to wait for the computer to figure out all the battles, etc. . Is the AI building cities in remote places, without any resources at all near them a bug in the AI that makes them just want to build and expand no matter what the surrounding area is like? I've taken over MANY cities through culture that are just usless to the AI civ =/ because of the strategic resource system, there is no such thing as a "useless" city in Civ 3 (which is not to say that you should cram cities together... that would be a mistake.) But what might look like useless desert might someday become oil heaven. Was there a mechanism whereby the AI gets advantages according to its situation? The story about 20-strong armies not taking a hitpoint of a lone warrior is one I've heard all too often :-) Mark13: I am glad you brought this up. The AI get NO combat bonuses of any kind at any difficulty level. I understand that many people have a hard time believe this but let me give an anecdote... ...at one point in the project, people complained that combat was unfair, so I said I would change some things, and what I did was give the _human_ a combat bonus. Then people told me that combat was once again "fair." It is all in the eye of the beholder i'm sorry, i missed a bunch of questions while answering that one Soren, I don't know if this has been addressed before, but do you think low-tech units have too good of a chance to defeat higher-tech units...?? gamad...: concerning the loss of firepower. Firepower added needless complexity to the game. For example, there is no significant difference between a unit with an offence of 10 and a firepower of 2 and a unit with an offense of 20 and firepower of 1... however having said that, the later age units in Civ3 ARE less powerful than they are in Civ2. This was a design decision based on the resource system. We didn't want the game to be totally hopeless if you were unable to build the newest type of unit because you don't have resource X *** ACS_MarkG changes topic to 'Civ3 AI Chat with Soren Johnson- NOW - ask questions on #apolyton-open' 10Soren, when does the AI give up on trying to attack me? The Egyptians have often attacked me for what seems like forever and all they accomplish is some improvement destruction around the city. It doesn't seem to be worth the units. The AI likes to expand, as I'm sure all of you know. It is not a bug although I am looking at some specific issues involving cities which will almost certainly be lost to culture for the patch... The Ai doesn't give up on attacking you until a) peace or ) s/he is on the defensive. If the AI can hurt you, it will. Mark: what was that? 10Soren, when does the AI give up on trying to attack me? The Egyptians have often attacked me for what seems like forever and all they accomplish is some improvement destruction around the city. It doesn't seem to be worth the units they're losing. see above :) QUESTION: does the AI ever "backstab"? like: This CIV has a kinda small military, but a great scientific advancing. So first I'll trade all techs, then wipe 'em out. Or any other form of skeems? (may have follow-up Q's depending on answer) the AI is more willing to make peace if the war has gone on too long, however... The AI does backstab when the opportunity presents itself... do they do that to all players, or just other AI, or just Humans? ...however, it will not do thing like what you mentioned just b/c it would make the game less fun... ...iow, the AI was not programmed to be a "perfect Civ 3 opponent" they backstab other AI opponents as well do they exploit other Civs in any way? (then i'm done) *** Patrick_Dawson_Firaxis has joined #Apolyton hi pat Hi Soren, net is back up here, since I like to state the obvious. Greeting to Patrick Dawson! Hellp Patrick_Dawson_Firaxis: welcome, thanks for coming :) *** Dan_Magaha_FIRAXIS has joined #Apolyton I mean, Hello i was just about to ask: Where is Dan Magaha Patrick? :D *** Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS has joined #Apolyton Welcome to Dan_Magaha_FIRAXIS as well. :) go winstar Oh my, the gangs all here :) the cavalry is here! Soren is saved :) hi dan hows the hot seat Soren? =) HOTSEAT? :D tsk tsk Mark! LOL QUESTION: Is the AI scripted (and in which language) or is it hardcoded? Will there be a SDK? Demonic: The AI is not scripted... it is all in C++. There are no current plans to release a SDK. I am interested in project that give more freedom to the mod community to alter the AI. The Civ3 AI, however, was written to be as flexible as possible, so that it can deal with many (most) changes to the BIC file.b I have a question about the AI's goverment choices. I noticed via editor that certain civs, like Russia despise the use of democracy, yet in every game I have played so far, the other Civ's always use Democracy if it is available. Does the goverment preference have any effect on the AI ? The government preference does have an effect on government choice. However, I erred on the side of "best government" instead of SMAC-style social choice, so if Democracy is the best choice at the time, it will often go that way. ok everyone, you did not read the above lines! so are you all having fun? hey..i got here late. referring to his comments on "goal AI", are there conditions in which the AI will declare war to get strategic/luxury resources, or in cases where the player has them offer a "fair" trade deal for them? (eg offer a resource + tech for the player's resource) The AI will go to war for strategic reasons, including goods and their availablility. The AI, however, is plenty happy with fair trade deals. It is a good way to keep your neighbors friendly, in fact. And I want to know if anyone has beat Diety legit. Patrick, if you mean from Apolyton, i dont think so This has been semi-answered before, but once again, for the record: Does the AIs treat each other the same way as they treat the player, or are they biased against the player (in a Regent level game)? Congestion: The AI is essentially blind concerning whether a particular opponent is a human or an AI. For example, there is an AI_declareWar() function which determines who the AI would like to sneak attack, and nowhere is that function do I make a call to is_human() to see if a specific civ is AI or human. I meant "nowhere in that funtion do I " Thanks! That'll shut a few people in the newsgroups up. :) cool soren :D <[XSS]> QUESTION: When does the AI consider suing for peace, in most of my games the AI is just so stubborn i can't make peace with them and im stuck in mobilization XSS: hmm... the AI is supposed to take into account its recents victories and/or losses in determining if it wants to go to peace or not. I have seen it work, but perhaps I should look at it a little more. <[XSS]> Thanks! Mike - any progress on the save game issue? I haven't had a chance to look at the saved games yet but I'll be looking at them later today. hi mike the gang's all here! <[XSS]> Soren_Johnson_Firaxis: How many pages of code do you estimate the AI code takes? XSS: there are 5 main AI files (leaderAI, cityAI, unitAI, diploAI, gameAI), and they probably average around 3-4000 lines. I know unitAI is over 10,000 Question: Does the AI ever start making actual "fair" trades? It seems to me they'll never ever trade unless the deal is tipped in their favor. I've had this problem with trades even after being the "nice guy" and giving away a tech for nothing in return to a Civ.. seems I can never get anything from them unless I give More in return :( Argeye: well, that is a subjective question... the AI is more picky about its deals at the higher dificulty levels, but I don't think it ever want more than a 10-15% mark-up on what it considers to be a fair deal... there have been circumstances in which I have gotten the AI to give me 2+ luxuries in exchange for 1. It all depends Argeye: if you are the most powerful civ in the game, it can sometimes be hard to get fair trades... Also, I have found if I have a high level tech the AI wants but doesn't want to research, I can get an awful lot of gold per turn for it. I'm considering leaving and coming back as RodLosAngeles =) Dan, Rod has got himself a two weeks ban from the forums :) wnat one too? :D ouch! Here's another one: What was the resoning behind deciding not to let aircraft be able to sink ships? FIRAXIS: Could we possible have more info about cities' defenders at the main screen in the future? Maybe a little S-letter for a air-superiority unit in city and small A-letter for a artillery unit? Something like that? It would help arranging defensive units to cities. Soren's AI code is responsible for the largest functino in the entire game.... mike, is that he is second under jeff briggs on the credits? :) Mike: grrrr... re: flexible AI. What if I'd want to change AI personality in the middle of a scenario? (FE WWII 'Parisian' France -> Vichy France). Is that possible? LoQtus: that's an interesting idea. I mean, the AI does change dynamically anyway, but I assume you want a more scripted response. More fun for Mike, I guess... thanks. yes, it should respond scripted. So Mike: any plans in that area? :) now we can only see best defensive unit standing in the city and small lines which tell how many units there are. Wexu: what? Could we possible have more info about cities' defenders at the main screen in the future? Maybe a little S-letter for a air-superiority unit in city and small A-letter for a artillery unit? Something like that? It would help arranging defensive units to cities. that's a good idea... i'll add it to the pile. :) thanks! :) Gold per turn is broken and you can get however much you want from them reguardless.. is what I read on the forums anyway.. haven't tried to test it myself though :-/ Argeye: yeah, there is an integer overflow bug involving gold/turn. I CAN let everyone know that that is going to be fixed. Here's another one: What was the resoning behind deciding not to let aircraft be able to sink ships? Congestion: game balance. We felt that air units were too powerful in the previous SMAC/Civ games, so know you need at least some sort of a navy in order to sink other naval ships. I should note, that naval ships can't fire back, which evens it out somewhat *** Mike_Breitkreutz_FIRAXIS has quit IRC (Ping timeout) <[XSS]> QUESTION: Tell us something funny that occured when programming the AI or the overall game. XSS: well, at one point we had a bug which allowed the AI to think it could sail from the north pole to the south pole even though it actually couldn't, so the result was that we saw all sorts of AI ships hanging around the north pole and couldn't figure out why. That was a fun one... What was the reasoning behind not allowing aircraft to sink ships? QUESTION: How does the AI prioritize use of Workers? I'm asking about the AI's workers, not my workers on 'automate' i think it's the same right soren? Mark: yes, the AI worker AI and automare is basically the same... I've had several instances where I had to send my own workers to another continent to build roads to the AI's resources in order to get the AI to trade them with me...and it seems they run about without doing much a lot of the time wow, that was too long maybe you can see the resources and the AI can't... no, I gave him the techs too :) well, once they get the techs, it will take a few turns for a worker to free up and make its way to the resource... or maybe the AI already has access to the resource (but only one) in which case it isn't a high priority... * ChrisTheCat thinks that the AI should consider scarcity of resources and potential profits from trading them when sending workers to build roads then... ChrisTheCat may be right. *** Patrick_Dawson_Firaxis has quit IRC (Ping timeout) *** Dan_Magaha_FIRAXIS has quit IRC (Ping timeout) there goes the firaxis connection again :) QUESTION: In your experience, how well does the AI respont to wild changes of the game rules, say a multiplication of every numerical value by three? Crazy value changes? So, again, if you missed my question above: How robustly will the AI handle extreme values in the editor? Say 30 instead of 3 hit points per unit or extreme conflict between government types. Snapcase: well, there is only one way to find out. I don't think hit points will screw with the AI. Changing the standard government fields should be fine too.... although I can't say that the AI worried about some fo the more obscure gov modifiers like conversion adjustment. What about the obvious "AI control" modifiers in the Civilizations screen? Does the AI respond to those well? Snapcase: do you mean the build priorities? For example. It should respond well to those. The "often" flags will simply double the AI's value for those types of units or buildings. The never flag will mean that it will never build them (although sometimes there is overlap, so it might require clicking multiple flags to prevent the AI from building a Harbor...) Sounds good. Thanks, Mark, you can devoice me now. <[XSS]> QUESTION: Did you "program til you drop" or did you have a working schedual during the making of Civ3? XSS: um, no comment... I'll just say that all my CD's are at work. In the forums we found out, that all AI players behave the same, in one point : EXPANSION. They ALL expand like hell in the beginning. Couldn´ t you implement a little more variety, esp. concentrating on a few big cities ? Sunstone: well, there is some variety... I know that some AI's will aim for culture sooner, but expansion is very important. It seemed like the main problem with the previous SMAC/Civ AI's was that they didn't expand fast enough, so one of my main goals was fixing that. yes but the players have to do the same : EXPAND otherwise you´ll be stomped. it´s an "expand as fast as you can- race" in the beginning. AI building towns in your territory. Always ! Sunstone: yes, I know. In my estimation, the AI has the best chance of competiting successfully if it expands aggressively. ok, thanx alot ...devoice me. Question - how can I get the AI to stop attacking another AI? Also if I have a mutural protection pack with two civs and they attack each other how does the comp decide which one I will defend? i have to say that mutural protection pack are very tricky. you should be very carefull with whome you agree such a thing :) SITS1: Good question... one way is to attack one of the civs since they don't like being in multiple wars unless they have to (via MPP or Military Alliance)... Thanks - another question - how does the AI use Shakespeare's Theatre? With units not being supported by a city how does having 8 happy citizens in one city help matters? SITS: well, it is like a permanent We Love The King Day, which can help your production a lot. Needless to say, however, it is not one of the AI's favorite wonders. I've got a question.. not for the team.. for anyone here that can tell me :) What is better on wheat/cattle ect.. a mine or irrigation? My automated workers take too much time changing from one to another sometimes =/ you know soren, the We Love The King Day animations are geting tiring on me :) Perhaps it is time to increase the difficulty level? :) *** Guest1 has joined #Apolyton you mean monarch isnt difficult? :) monarch is a good difficulty level... in fact, I would describe it as the most fair. There are some AI bonuses, but they are not very powerful, and the human can always edge out the AI through little things, like micro-managing the science slider. people with + in front of their names can actually talk! Soren... I dunno if this has been addressed, but the Privateer seems pretty weak... gama: we are looking at the Privateer values... How does the AI deal with so many diplomatic options (trade goods, gold, sciennce, cities) ? How did you track erratic AI behaviour ? TLG: I tracked erratic AI behavior by just watching the AI play itself. Every night went I left work, I would set two computers up to have 7 AI civs just go at it, and in the morning there was always something interesting I didn't expect. The AI handles diplomacy by assigning a value to everything which can be put on the table and accepting a deal if it's side is more or equal to your (there are some special cases...) "I would set two computers up to have 7 AI civs just go at it" how can we do something like that? :D sorry Mark, that is only available in debug mode... any chance you'll make it available to us in the future (AI-only)? LoQtus: that is undetermined... Is there a set ratio between resources, i.e. gold is more common than oil and so on, or is that totally random? I'll try again: Is there a set ratio between resources, i.e. gold is more common than oil and so on, or is that totally random? Third time is a charm :) :Is there a set ratio between resources, i.e. gold is more common than oil and so on, or is that totally random? sorry, I am sure I missed a few ?'s Is there a set ratio between resources, i.e. gold is more common than oil and so on, or is that totally random? Congestion: there is a ratio for resources and luxuries which is set by the number of players in the game. There is always at least one resource per civ and there is never more than one luxury per civ. The "commodity" resources (wheat, gold, etc...) basically just fill up the rest of the map. Thanks. Next question: Will there be a comprehensive list with all the keyboard shortcuts with the upcoming patch? Congestion: is the manual incomplete. ? Congestion, i think the manual has a full list Most (not all) of the info is in the manual, but a reference card, or listing of keyboard shortcuts, would make it MUCH easier to use. And I don't *think* there is one in the manual. Congestion, page 196 :D I'm blushing. question: who's idea was it to put Apolyton in as a Greek city name and why didn't you name it Apolyton.net? ;) LoQtus: it's one of those things which just worked its way into the project... I'd just like to say... That I'm overjoyed Pittsburgh made the list of American cities this time...:) Any chance armies will be allowed to attack more than once? When fighting low tech AI's it is a disadvantage to put tanks into an army because you can only kill 1 enemy per turn Twostep: true, but an army is a guaranteed win most of the time, so it is usually worth the trade-off. But it is a trade-off, so you have to make a choice. ok, but it still seems unrealistic... 3 tanks attack 1/3 as much as 1 does The bonus for expansive civs seems too slim to me, 1 worker at the start is not enough when it only takes a couple of ressources to build TLG: that is true, but only expansionist civs can build scouts, and they get much better stuff from goody huts (never barbarians) It sort of depends on the map. Obviously, expansionistic is pretty useless on archipelago. Cheers Soren - it does seem to be a left over from Civ2 so I can't really see the value of it in civ3. It would be great if it produced lots of culture points like +10. AI question - Does the AI cheat and know where your weakly defended cities are? Soren - The Shakespeare theatre would be more useful if it produced 10+ culture points - at the moment it seems to be a left over from civ2 with cities supporting units. AI question - does the AI cheat by knowing which city is poorly defended? SITS: that's an interesting idea about Shakespeare's Theatre... ...as for the AI, well, the AI does not interface with the map like the player does. There were, however, some AI bugs in the original release in which the AI obviously was target the weakest city. We are working on that... I just want to emphasize though that the AI is not a human. They don't have a keyboard, mouse or monitor, so the answer to that question is never going to be "Yes" or "No." It will always be somewhat grey.. targetting Soren, a question of mine: i've only played 1.5 games so far, but the AI does not seem very aggresive? Is it just a matter of difficulty level(monarch)? Mark: I think the AI is a little less aggressive than in Civ2, but I think it varies from game to game. Some people seem to think the AI is quite aggressive. also, aggression levels can be easily tweaked via the editor... *** Soren_Johnson_Firaxis1 has joined #Apolyton sorry, I got disconnected... What is the AI's fav wonder? the AI likes the Pyramids, the Great Library, the Art of Wonder, the Hoover Dam, Sistine Chapel maybe? I tried to make sure the AI knew to emphasize the choice wonders since that seemed to be a flaw in previous AI's the Art of War, I mean Cheers Soren! Soren_Johnson_Firaxis1, I think, when AI decides to really threathen you, it should ask something rational, like some tech or city, not territory map and 5 gold pieces. :) well, if it is asking for gold, it is probably b/c you don't have any techs it doesn't have. I think... Soren_Johnson_Firaxis1, then it should ask at least 100 gold, not 5. :) Soren, a question of mine: i've only played 1.5 games so far, but the AI does not seem very aggresive? Is it just a matter of difficulty level(monarch)? Mark: I think the AI is a little less aggressive than in Civ2, but I think it varies from game to game. Some people seem to think the AI is quite aggressive. Markos, he answered your question already... (first thing he didn after rejoining) i thought he was answering to the differences from civ2 question by mark13 :) Wasn't me :-) I have been doing some modding and I am wondering: Will the AI be able to use units and improvements/wonders that I change properly, simply on the basis of it seeing the differences in their attributes? For instance, I gave Infantry a limited amount of tile improving ability- will the AI know to use Infantry in that limited way now? Anunikoba: the AI will probably not be able to deal with road-building infantry... that would require a whole 'nother level of AI (should this unit be improving or fighting?) and that choice never existed in Civ3... Thanx Soren Also, does the AI create armies? I've never seeon one so far.. I hope the AI is creating armies... I've seen it happen a number of times. Getting leaders is pretty hard (As I'm sure y'all know) I have seen an AI army once- I remember now from a while ago Yes, I've seen a Zulu army early in the game 2 games ago Funny, the army I saw was also Zulu because of impi... yes i have seen an egyptian army zulu==military i use one Gl to make an army so I can make the military academy...and then the rest are wonder rushers...if I ever get more than 1 one leader per game is probably about average... it is a reward for playing militaristically. Hmm, I've had five so far this game... Thanks! Umm, another question about armies... if it is a tradeoff to use one instead of three individual units, why would you ever expend a leader on it? I thought the tradeoff would be between instant wonder and army? CyberGnu - I think what Soren was saying was that b creating an army, you're effectively substituting three normal units for one 'unbeatable' unit - that's your trade-off... Question: How does the automated worker know whether to mine or irrigate a given grassland square? Nobody: well, there is a basic pattern it follow to even it out. Basically, every other tile gets mine/irrigation. One of the reasons for this was that the AI would never accidently box of an area of the map from fresh water access... Soren_Johnson_Firaxis: I guess you played the game lots and lots of times, so you must know: Aren't some civs more likely to succeed?? sunstone, they probably tried not to have something like that :) Sunstone: it's funny... I assumed that some civs would always come out on top, and although there are some which tend to be more successful, there is not one which always win in the AI-on-AI games. Which is not to say a human couldn't find a terrific strategy for just one civ... :-)) thanx Soren! I think I'll try that.... 2nd time: do you have any plans to refine the way you can win a diplomatic victory somewhat? as it is, the game ends very abruptly and arbitrarily with just the UN vote. Moo2 diplomatic ending sucked somehow atahualpa: it depends on your rivals. having twice as much culture than anyone else on Prince or higher is pretty much impossible (PRETTY MUCH... I DIDN'T SAY IT WAS!), so I think the 20,000 points in one city is more doable. You need to plan for it though. Build the temple and library ASAP and lots of wonders. thx soren Does the computer make the UN? I've only played 1 game that got that far...rest I gave up on...losing causes...