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Posted by sekong on 29-03-2001 14:40:

A letter from Consul Tuo Lei to Chinese Consul:

Dear Sir,

Again, Mongol want to gift out some units to China. There is a group of settler from Bakhara is starving at Sibria. Our city can't support them for even one more year. I sincerely hope Chinese Goverment can host them. As a thanks, we can also gift out some ship or horseman. We hope they will become free unit and don't have to be supported by any Chinese cities.

The progress of settlement is slow. It was partially because the raging barbarian arround Canada area. Another reason is the settlers requires a lot of food under Republic Goverment. In order to speed up the settlement in New World, I suggest as least one of our goverment need to change to Monarchy. According to our astologist, the best chance for switching Goverment is at beginning of next century, which is 40 years from now. I wish to hear your decission soon.

Our country are carrying out a big project called Grand Canal. We hope to link the Yellow river from Shanghai and Karakorum Lake by the Great Canal.
Then the inland of Mongol empire can be irrigated. If you can build irrigation at southwest of Shanghai OR Northwest of Beijing, it will help us with this project. Your help will be greatly appreciated.

Of course, the most important thing is to found found new cities in North America. Our settlers there will do it soon. And we hope to hear about your oppions as well.

Glory belong to Chinese and Mongolian.

Consul Tuo Lei

Posted by deity on 29-03-2001 17:51:


Deity pondered the seclusion of Paul lately.

Was he upset?

The war started by the Adriatics was certainly no surprise, but a shock all the same.
Clearly they had come to the New World to cause trouble. They seem to need to be noticed. They have always spoken threateningly and constantly mentioned ‘war’, ‘fighting’ etc.

Deity, with his supreme and spotless reputation, is anxious to hear from Paul for he fears that Paul’s thoughts may be tending to war….
But Deity implores you to consider this:
This is NOT your war.
Your allies would expect you to remain neutral and your plans to colonise the West Indies may have been a little over-confident.
But what of the poor Mali I hear you say?
Seek peace with the AL and maybe attempt to defuse the situation.
Deity knows that you hold high hopes for vast and wealthy colonies in the Americas but be content to compromise. Make friends and peace...

I await your response, Paul...

Things have been going well however on the Aussie homeland with all cities growing and building various improvements.
Several new cities were established and one was ceded to help our loyal allies, the Chinese in developing their nation. North America is there's and Mali.

Posted by The Capo on 29-03-2001 21:38:

Speech given in Manchester to soldiers headed to America before departure...

I stand before you not as a King, as a Monarch or Emperor, but as a fellow Adriatic. Today you begin a long and dangerous journey, one that has only been achieved by a select few, one that will live on in history whether you are successful or not. There have been many fears as of late, many assumptions. We look accross the great deserts of the Khazak steppe, we look accross the glorious Mediterranean, we look into South America, into Asia prepared for the worst horrors: An international incursion. As a nation we feel helpless and frustrated, our viewpoint is being ignored and mangled by politics. We have grown and developed in a world that does not trust us, for whatever reason, this distrust is unfounded and unfair. We have grown in a world where a most powerful alliance looms in the east, we have chosen not to let this effect us, we have chosen not to let fear rule our nation. A new regime arose in the Mali Kingdom, King Rahim Abdul wrenched power from Ray King. He made large claims, made threats, again we did not allow fear to rule our nation. Talk, whether idle or realistic, has spread throughout the world, talk of an Asian intervention in the Mali-Adriatic war have hit home quite harshly, again we do not allow fear to rule our nation. To the world you are greedy tyrants, to the world you are undeserving of what is yours, to the world you are evil. Men I look upon you, the youth of the Adriatic League, you are our future and I believe in your ability to defend this nation at all costs. Most of you will perish, most of you will never see your homes again, most of you will never see the glory of Europe after you set sail for your various encampments. You will never again see your family, your friends, your life being wrestled away from you be the greedy Mali. But men you must fight, fight your hearts out, you must be brave courageous and dogged in battle. Do not give one inch, not one! You will die, but you will live on forever, for you will be the men that have ignored the petty politics, and greed and tyranny of this wretched planet, you will be the beacon of virtue and bravery. Stand up to them, for they are wrong. As they are wrong we are right. And as we are right, my friends, we shall be victorious! Now go to, and save your nation!

Posted by The Capo on 31-03-2001 14:34:

Alright well, the new suppliment rules.txt (and possibly a graphics change here or there) will be up on Monday or Tuesday. This time around I would really like some feedback on what you guys think should/will happen in the next few weeks, because they are important for the survival of this game. Thanks a lot, peace.

Posted by The Capo on 31-03-2001 14:55:



The Following Is the Declaration of Independence of the Various Nations of Europe from the Kingdom and House of Habsburg.

The nature of man is independant and competitive. Both of which have been negated and compramised under the reign of any Monarch. For a whole people to be held under the rule of one single man, one single family, or one single iron law not of their own collective creation is unnatural and degrading. It is under these truths that the Nations of Europe declare their independence from the Kingdom and House of Habsburg.

The grievances of the people are numerous. Thousands of men were sent on long journies accross the sea only to be told to return home by a King who decided it was in his best interest to make it so. Projects for development at home were put to a halt during this time of war, and were simply put back on track, the loss being suffered by the people rather than the government. Pounds and pounds of gold were poured into projects that were never finished due to political strife and bargianing, again the people suffered without a single ounce of respect towards their feelings or tribulations.

The forced faith towards Roman Catholicism has been a tribulation upon the peace of these people, tythes upon tythes are being levied in order to support the chosen faith of the King, and while the vast majority of the citizenry proscribes to this faith its forced servitude on all of them shall be seen as yet another form of survitude towards the King, who by no official act of doctrine or sacrament claims himself to be ordained by god to rule his people.

Constant taxation of income and shipping has been a detriment to the proliferation of trade and enterprise, these rights to property gained by fair means shall not be abridged, however the King has seen fit to use the prosperity of the people to line his pockets.

The idea that one man can command the futures of thousands upon battlefields, allowing them to be slaughtered by terrible enemies simply for the wealth of the King is to be ended. If the collective sees fit to make war we shall see fit to make war.

Based on proscribed grievances, and many others to which have not been delineated we make the following changes to the governance of the people of Europe and its various nations and territories therein or abroad.

I. The right to elect and thus change the government shall not be denied.

II. The seperation of church and taxes and dues of and by the church shall in no way be enforced or regulated by the government of the people of Europe and its various colonies therein and abroad.

III. The military of the people shall be regulated and dispatched at the behest of a government established and ordained by the people, and shall not be used in any way which goes against the collective will of the people.

IV. No laws shall be enacted upon the people unless at the majority vote of a collective representation of the people.

V. No person of title shall be exempt from the laws of the common people.

VI. No title of nobility thus related to the will of a church, parish, faction, or otherwise may be granted upon any citizen unless at the behest of the collective of the people.

VII. No treaty or agreement with a foreign power is to be made unless lineated by a majority of a representation of the collective of the people.

VIII. No state or geographic entity within the union of European provinces, duchies, states, or territories shall be more powerful than the other parts of the union, and no state or territory or province or duchy or geographic entity shall weild more power than the collective of these states, territories, provinces, duchies, or geographic entities.

IX. Only laws proscribed by a representation of the collective of the people shall be enforced upon any citizen of this country or any other within the boundries of this nation.

X. The access to any worship however much in the minority, any expression of ideology or belief however much in the minority or however much considered offensive to others shall be abridged upon any citizen of this or any other nation within the boundries of this nation. No act of legislation whether or not by the collective may abridge this notion.

Based on the previous ten criteria, we hereby declare this collective of European States formally known as the United Adriatic Kingdoms or Adriatic League to be now deemed the Unified Adriatic States, any rules or regulations signed by the former United Adriatic Kingdoms or its governing entities shall hereby be withdrawn with the exception of any former international arrangements which the new government shall respect unless it deems otherwise.

We now declare these States Adriatic a Republic.

N. Bonaparte
V. Emanuele
N. Machiavelli
G. Garibaldi
E. Cavour
S. Montpinsiere
W. Von Oranj - Nassau
L. Eriksson
P. Wilhelm
S. Salvador
G. Pochenko
K. Attaturk
O. Cromwell
B. Greco
M. Mazzini
E. Panini
G. Mantucci

 

Posted by The Capo on 04-04-2001 05:10:

(I dunno what Chris was thinking but he put this post in the regular MP area, so this is a MALI POST, this is not an ADRIATIC POST, thank you and here goes...)

Ninth Legion
Commandant Hatter Abdul

Troops having marched the breadeth of the Great Northern Forest arrive in position southeast of Salzburg, north of the source of the Barri River (known natively as the Mississippi, flowing east), east of the Fourth Mounted.

Bivouked for night, sentries placed 100 yards in all directions. No sign of native activity.

Food plentiful, Land is dry but could be quite profitable with some development.

Reports from Commandant Sikasso Garalo say his Fiftenth Legion has arrived at the joining of the Barri River and the Tinkisso Rivers (the Missouri flowing south) and will begin movement by boat towards our position.

Brigader Mourdiah Nara of the Fourth Mounted further sends reports of "All Quiet"

We will strike camp and head out in the morning.

Posted by Prometheus on 04-04-2001 12:48:

To the Adriatic’s:

By no means has the Chinese Empire held the Adriatic’s in ill will, however we believe that you have taken everything out of proportion. Our Empire has had some hard times with the civil war and reestablishing of the monarchy. So let us put your fears to rest, as most of you messages have gotten lost in the mail so to speak.

Now honestly good King of the Adriatic’s do you think so little of your army patrols that one of the Pacific Pact could ever place a city in the middle of your empire. Please sir, this is silly, the people of the Chinese embassy have were joking around with one another when such a message was sent due to the outbreak of civil war. Taking it seriously as you did makes us wonder if you are using any excuse to go to war with our Mongol neibors, especially with such a ludicrous statement as the one that was sent.

Next you accuse the Chinese empire of a military build up. I do not know whether to laugh or cry at such a statement, the Chinese empire has less military units than it does cities. If that is a military build up I am the King of Zululand.

Now we comes the issue of the Mongol city in Chinese territories, we understand the Adriatic’s concern but as the Chinese can not settle as fast as other powers due to fewer recourses we asked the Mongols to build a city or two in our territory and then gift it to us to help us settle our land.

As you can see these our just misunderstandings due to our communications being out of sorts as the new monarchy cemented its control. We ask you to re-recognize our claims and to withdraw your troops from Mongolian territory.


Sincerely,

King Prometheus

Posted by GNGSpam on 04-04-2001 13:05:

Julia 5th, the Year of 280 A.D (After.Discovery)

Ship at Sea

Off the Coast of Porto Marino, enroute to New Timbuktu and the Consults office.

Orders came in from the Homeland. New World fleet is going to be kept in the Region for at least another year. The 18th Horse Cavalry on board has also been ordered docked. Im very glad too, the putrid smell of horse crap is grating on all the ships crews nerves. The Cavalry men cant take the sea and we cant take their beasts. It will be a fair trade.

I miss you and Abbel. I know how unfair this is, for you and her. I cannot express how much it hurts me also. Ill send money soon and Abbel a gift from New Timbuktu.

With all my love

Posted by sekong on 04-04-2001 15:19:

 

!lol!
capo: if what you so called dipo was just sending silly mails arround, and threaten other nations, and even went into war with your neighber having peace treaty with you, then go kick yourself. Your DIPOaspect made me sick.

What I was looking for is FUN, peaceful-competion CIV2 game. While you accused others this and that, you were the first one that actually attacked others. Now you even send your pathetic troops in front of Mongol cities. They better leave Mongol's land next turn, or the supreme Mongol hordes will give you some color see see.

Mongol like to have dipo, but not with a bully like you. Even it's role-playing, we Mongol hordes don't like devil-role-playing. Be advised to switch to a more peaceful DIPO-strategy, you will bring more fun to all, including yourself.

True Peace if you want.

RAY KING

Posted by sekong on 04-04-2001 15:57:

The One who brought Republic of Mongol become Supreme power of the world, the fourth son of Great Genghis Khan, the man named as Tuo Lei, which means "Bring the Thunder".

Here he comes.

He is not tall. He does not looks strong. He smiles like a girl. He laughs like a kid. He looks normal when he is among his people. But what he decide, no one could stop. When he is angry, the ocean would cry, the sky would change the color. He is the new leader of proud Mongol hordes.


[to be continue]

Posted by The Capo on 04-04-2001 23:33:


I understand, but then again why is it that when we asked for an explaination intially you declined to even tell us to wait, you didn't even respond? How much respect is that?


Again all we asked for was an explaination. Seriously, I am sure any leader here would agree with me on this note: If you recieve a message who's source was China speaking to another nation advising them at what could occur if they settle in your territory, and then the Chinese refuse to answer any question with even a simple word you would take heed and prepare for the worst! Would you not? Then I doubt your cred as a leader.

I don't believe I ever accused the Chinese of an intelligent military build-up, just a build-up, and that has occured regardless of how much tact, or lake thereof, was used.

Why then wasn't the city turned over? The city has a unit in it, which means at least one turn was used to develop it, and since its size exceeds 1 (According to reports from other nations) it must have been around for a while. So again, if this was its purpose why wasn't the city turned over to the Chinese?

We have addressed our situation with Mongolia, we have explained to them that we will not remove the troops until the issue was resolved, even before it was resolved and at the behest of Khan War4Ever we agreed that we are overreacting and will remove our troops, then we were threatened by Mongolia after the agreement was made and in front of the entire world, that is quite a bit of disrespect as far as I am concerned. If this pathetic Lou Tei wishes to know what it is to tussle with Adriatics, then we shall too show him a new color... that color will be red.

Posted by The Capo on 04-04-2001 23:41:

Sekong, we made an agreement already that I would withdrawl, if it pleases you to flex your muslces after the agreement has been signed and run your mouth and look tough, then do that. But as you SHOULD KNOW not only are the Adriatics more than willing to verbally accomodate you and your weak and infantile words, but we are more than willing to accomodate your meak little army. Hey, at least your mortician business will skyrocket.

I want peace, but not at the expense of me bending over for you! I am a sovreign state and can do what I wish until someone forces me to do otherwise. I recieved a message that my territory might be compramised by a foreign entity, I asked everyone in the West who all swore they had nothing to do with it outright, when I asked everyone in the East I was ignored, ignored, ig-freakin-nored.

How respectful is that? You didn't think that I would just sit back and let it happen just because you are bigger than me did you? Pah! I back down from nothing, if I ever did I would have failed my people and my title of King of the Adriatic League.

Peace be with you, and may God have mercy on your soul... because I won't.

Posted by GNGSpam on 05-04-2001 00:26:

"Come in, come in, do tell, what is your worry young fellow?" so says the King

"News from The New World sire, specifically the WAF (West Atlantic Fleet), the 4th Horse Cavalry has put to port and is headed west" so says the peasent messanger known as Jabber

"Very good, very boring too, dont bore me with such minor details, I have advisor, you tell the advisors, they tell me, really now, im trying to enjoy dinner" so says the Annoyed King

"Most apologies" so says the peasent messanger hurrying out the door

"Nonna Kareem, tell me my wise military advisor, give me a summary, what does our military look like?" so says the Thoughtful King

"Our modernization plan has gone exceptionally well. We sport, by our estimation, the largest fighting Navy in the world, composed of squadrons of Warships, divided into 2 fleets. We have replaced all the old Tribal Warrior clans from the forrest with Pikeman, recruited from the fields, and built up 2 divisions of 4 regiments each of Legionnaires, 1 division in the New World, one in the Homeland. We also have modernized most of our Auxilary Cavalry to Elephants, we even have some in the New World." so says the Brilliant Military Advisor

"Really? We brought Elephants to the New World eh? I would think that would be quite the feat of arms, was it worth it?" so says the Intrigued King

"Very much so, we are quite confident of our success in the New World. With our ability to fortify cities so quickly and turn out Pikeman just as quickly, defensively we are a juggernaut, and with many Elephant squads and a full division of Legionaire's, we are more then prepared" so says the Proud Military Advisor

"Very good, very good, do you want some dates and grapes? They are actually from Israel believe it or not, those people do turn out some of the finest luxury items and foods, but come now, less talking more eating. LILLE! Bring us some fresh fruit, especially dates and grapes." so says the Gluttonous King

Posted by Prometheus on 05-04-2001 07:01:

We ask again that the Adriatic’s reconsider their position toward the Chinese Territorial claim in the new world. We will try to address the concerns of the Adriatic’s in hopes that they will continue to respect our claims.

The Adriatic’s main concern seems to be that the city of Bergen which is the city in Chinese North American Territory is an extension of Mongol territory in what was recognized as Chinese Territory this however is not the case as it was built just this last year (turn). The great king of the Mongols is going to turn the city over to the Chinese control (but due to the shortness of the game and abrupt end we never got to it).
You must trust us the Chinese will never give away any of its land to anyone including its allies we have to little of it already.

Next the Adriatic’s seem to think that we are not pursuing our land claim in America. The Chinese are still a small and poor nation and we don’t have the resource to send over to America as fast as the Adriatic’s, Mongols and the other nations. As of next session with the Mongol city that will be gifted we will have 4 cities in the new world as we have more recourses being sent on the way.

If the Adriatic’s still officially withdraw their recognition of our land claims we will do the same for Adriatic Land claims in the new world as well if they decide not to honor ours. The Australians, Mongols, Zulus, and Mali still recognize our claims and we shall still honor theirs. However we understand the Adriatic’s concern and if they would like they may have the Mali send a scout or one of your own up the great river through Chinese territory that combines with the Mississippi, at the top is the city of Bergen. There they may see if the Mongol city has been turned over to the Chinese or not. The choice is yours we shall await your answer.

Posted by The Capo on 05-04-2001 07:19:

The issue here is not whether or not Adriatic Land Claims will be honored because (1) We have no official claim. (2) We do have a general claim, but no nation has chosen to honor this claim, despite the fact that many nations have, these nations have rescinded on numerous occasions, and therefore we are settling where we wish. If there is some Adriatic claim that people honor I would like to see it, becuase so far NOBODY has recognized any Adriatic claim except for the Mali, but the problem there is that the land they honor is already under Adriatic Control. How can you offer to take something that doesn't exist?

I said we would reconsider our position upon review, and that is what you have done, my major issue here is that until I get an official agreement from the Pacific Pact telling me what they see as my territory I can not continue to honor the Chinese claim. It is unfair to me in every sense of the word.

In order for me to restore my initial agreement as it concerns the Chinese claim I expect the following in return:
1) The Mongols and Chinese to follow through with what they say is territory (Bergen I assume) that is to be ceded to China.
2) An official document from the Pacific Pact recognizing the Adriatic Claim in the Americas and promising not to violate this claim.
3) An apology from the Mongols for attempting to shed a negative light upon our people by making two-faced comments and out right hiding the true facts.

When these three parameters are met, we will agree to the original Chinese land grant, we feel it would be ignorant of us to just agree to China's claim when her allies are treating the Adriatic League in such a manner of discourse. As stated before: We feel the plight of China is a horrible one, but it was one suffered at the hands of her allies, and to expect us to answer for their actions is ludicrous. So if those are our requirements, and we will leave the original Chinese claim unfettered, however if they are not met we will continue to stand by our position.

Thank you,

King Ferdinand of Habsburg

Posted by Prometheus on 05-04-2001 13:17:

When the Adriatic’s so many years ago agreed to recognize our claim we recognized their claim to east of the Mississippi and south of the Rio Grande, not including Baja California. This is the claim we speak of honoring. The Mongols have no business in that area so I have no doubt they will honor it but the Australians will have to speak for themselves for you see my good King Ferdinand I can not speak for the Australians in any business just because we are allies we are not one entity were one can speak for the other. So you can demand that the Pacific Pact recognizes your claim and an apology from the Mongol Empire but we will not pressure our allies to this because the issue of Chinese territory is between the Chinese and the Adriatic Empires not between the Adriatic and the Pacific Pact.

We had an agreement and we expect you to honor that agreement but as we are beginning to see that will be impossible to expect. The Adriatic Empire has longed talked about not letting its self be bullied around by foreign powers such as the Mongols and the Mali well China is a nation just like the Adriatic League and will not let the Adriatic Empire bully us around. We are surprised that with your talk about being bullied around you would decide to pick on the weakest nation on the globe.

If we do not agree as the independent nations of China and the Adriatic League to honor the agreement we had from before then we will move our Army into patrolling position along the Mississippi and will attack any unit sent by the Adriatic League that’s encroaching on Chinese Territory. We wish not for a war and urge the Adriatic Empire to reconsider their position.

Posted by The Capo on 05-04-2001 14:34:

 

(Message sent from the Adriatic King Ferdinand of Habsburg)

TO: Foreign Affairs Attache
FROM: Royal House of Habsburg Minister of Foreign Affairs and Military Cosimo D'Medici.

It has come to the attention of the House of Habsburg and its most Catholic and Regal head Ferdinand that the world has again gone ablaze in political talk and threats; it should be known by now that the House of Habsburg would rather attend to matters with action rather than words however he sees fit at this point in time to inform the world of the Adriatic Stance upon such matters as it would be more of a peaceful means to ending such an infantile discussion.

As to the situation between the United Adriatic Kingdoms and the Chinese; the King feels that centuries ago the Australian Republic made a bid for a substantial Chinese land grant in the Americas. Despite a heavy heart towards the matter his wise Majesty King Ferdinand relented and agreed to honor the Chinese land grant, with the assumption that the lands would (a) be used solely by the Chinese for they were in a situation of duress and needed a means of quick expansion (b) not be used for any purpose towards the welfare of the Mongolian, Australian, Zulu, Mali, Israeli, and Adriatic States (c) were essential to the growth of the Chinese State. Upon centuries of honoring the land grant under these pretenses the Adriatic Kingdom respected the land grant. However it has come to the attention of the Foreign Minister attache in Timbuktu that not only have these three pretenses been since made null and void, but that this has been in occurance long before the Adriatic Government had discovered. In response King Ferdinand has lifted his agreement to honor the land grant, and will thus inform his people that this land is free land for settlement as it was recognized prior to the Adriatic agreement to honor its ownership by the Chinese Republic. We understand the Chinese arguments, and they make sense, however regardless we feel that the grant was not persued in a prompt manner, we fell that some of the grant has been annexed to the Mongolian Republic and further feel that as China has made no steps to extend their foothold within this realm that they deem the area less important than originally indicated. It is under the credulence of these facts that we must withdrawl our agreement to honor this land grant at this point in time, we are as always open for discussion on the matter with any nation that wishes for the grant to remain in complete Chinese control, however at this point we can not possibly allow that to happen under the current circumstances.

As to the situation regarding Adriatic Soldiers in Mongolian Territory; it is a known fact that not very long ago a message from the Chinese was made public indicating that an unnamed source intended on settling within the Adriatic Realm, more specifically as the message lineated "in Adriatic territory." While his Catholic Majesty Ferdinand of Habsburg may have overreacted to the situation, he does not regret the manner in which he spoke of the situation initially, he had every right to be angry as any other nation does including China. Anyone who wishes to compramise the sovreignity of a nation in such a blatant manner is an enemy to all nations, including his own. Regardless of this, Adriatic officials began an investigation into the matter, first we aksed our peace-neighbors in the west, Israel swore they had no involvement and as they are our allies with which we share a demilitarized zone we believed them, the Mali who we hold in the highest regard despite the latest military conflicts stated that they would never hide behind secrecy and had no interest whatsoever in Adriatic territory our relationship within the West Indies indicates this as well, the Zulus promised us that they are neutral and as in the past they indicated they had no interest in "expanding beyond their boundries" were also trusted and we felt it was not them. However, upon our investigation into the matter on the other side of the world we recieved a quite different response; rather we recieved NO RESPONSE. No nation who is a member state of the Pacific Pact honored our inquiries, nobody spoke a single word either way, not even an omission to answer was proffered; just silence. When the Adriatic King Ferdinand discovered this, he was quite stricken by fear of an invasion, he promptly ordered his troops (who at the time were battling the vile Republicans) unto the borders of the Eastern states and again asked the nations to please answer the questions or at least humor them. Still no answer. Therefore the King made the decision as to who he believed it was that might be planning on settling within Adriatic lands, therefore he moved his troops into Mongolia and asked for an answer. As time progressed the Mongols eventually answered and said that they would not name the culprit, but promised any threat of it occuring was over. Therefore the King decided to move his garrisons off of Mongolian territory as it was improper and quite overreactive. This was indicated to Mongolia who said they appreciated the decision. It was only discovered later that Mongolia had threatened to destroy the troops if they were not removed despite the fact that the removal had already begun. Mongolia is now attempting to flex their muscle at our expense. They are putting us in a precarious position: (a) we could continue the retreat and let Mongolia make it seem as if their mere words prompted this removal (b) we could leave the troops there and give Mongolia the excuse to claim we are imperialists (c) we could show Mongolia what happens when people decide to degrade our people. Neither one is a favorable outcome for anybody in this situation, we feel we are nearly forced to retaliate, however we wish to indicate to every nation that this is not our intent and if this can be resolved without any type of aggression it would be favorable to any type of conflict.

We hope that every nation in the world finds it proper to contact the Adriatic League directly when a conflict arises with us, rather than to bring the case in front of other nations in the manner that the Mongols chose. While we respect the Mongolian people and their Government, we find it disheartening that such a nation could persue such means and pass them off as peaceful and justified. We want egality, we wish for peace and believe that it can be achieved as long as the politicking that occurs due to the situation on the planet would cease and facts are considered rather than political ties. We are the friends and soldiers of peace, but this does not mean we will bow to tyranny in order to achieve this end.

Respectfully yours,
Lord Cosimo D'Medici

Posted by deity on 05-04-2001 19:58:


The borders between role-playing and respecting each other as real people can get blurred.
You can't just say you respect the other players, you have to behave in a clear fashion that also respects our differences as individuals.

A diplo game is by definition 'diplomatic' - see CapTVK's faq on diplo games.

Persistent bullying by one player and bad jokes about quitting is NOT conducive to having a FUN diplo-game.
I like to have colourful personalities in the game and love some conflict but consistent global antaganism is NOT diplo style. Usually you'd have a few border disputes and maybe a major war or two in diplo-games but generally it is understood that aggressors get short shrift from the rest of the world combined.

We will see....

Posted by The Capo on 05-04-2001 23:34:

In my defense I'd like to say the following; I am not bullying any nation around, I have yet to threaten any nation with military action for any reason that would not permit military action.

The Chinese have not been picked on. Our stance is that many years, nay centuries ago the Pacific Pact made a bid to the entire world for a Chinese Land Grant. They made the bid as one entity, one solid core of nations that stood as one. Whether they like to admit it or not this is inherently an ominous way to go about peace, to ally into a powerful conglomorate and basically force other nations to grant the whims and wishes of this Pact.

I find it quite troubling that the Australians suggested an international intervention against me, all I have done is said that if the Pacific Pact won't recognize my land claims, why should I recognize theirs? Whether they like it or not they are one entity, they are one orginzation, that is the nature of their alliance and if they wish to deny that forthright I find it troubling that they think that is the case. Why would I accept a land claim made by the collective alliance, but at the same time not recieve my land claim from that very same collective alliance? That is my issue, further the very same collective alliance was discussing settlement in my territory! What do they expect from me but some type of response? I did respond, and asked for one in return so I can allay my fears, however I recieved none! What is a nation to do when put in such a situation?

It is quite clear that yet again, I ask a question. Instead of recieving an answer I get a vague statement from allies, statements that indicate hostilities. It is quite unfair to label me an aggressor when I have threatened no war, when I have done nothing but support equality in all land claims and grants.

The Adriatic League does not wish for war, that is the last solution we deem fit for this problem. However the Pacific Pact is unwilling to make any compramises, any changes to their party line, they are a stubborn entity, but they are one entity. You signed an alliance, you live with your allies and you perish with your allies. You are not three seperate nations anymore but one alliance, one entity. I am quite certain that if I found my soldiers staring accross the battlefield they would not only gaze upon the garrisons of China, but of Australia and Mongolia as well. So spare me your "We are not one entity" rhetoric, I am no fool.

I continue to require my terms, I want an apology from Mongolia for attempting to despariage my troops and my reputation in the manner they have done, I want my land claim to be honored not only by China but by Mongolia and Australia as well, and I want the Mongol city encraoching on Chinese territory to be annexed to China at once. If my terms are not accepted or met it is simple, I honor no land claims of Mongolia, China or Australia.

To the nations of Israel, the Mali, and the Zulu I wish to hold a conference in Jerusalem regarding this situation. I feel I have sufficient grounds to hold one and discuss the sitatuion of the Pacific Pact in the Americas. I wish to allay any fears and answer any questions regarding the current situation, and believe that in an open forum we can put an end to any worries from any nation in the West, I would further appreciate it if a member state of the Pacific Pact would attend and represent the alliance to us as well.

Thank you for your time,

King Ferdinand of Habsburg

Posted by The Capo on 06-04-2001 03:24:

 

(a message arrives at the various capitals of the various nations)

TO: Foreign Affairs Minister
FROM: Gepetto Bompinsiero, Minister of Territory

Upon request of various nations, this message will outline the claim that the Adriatic League wants in the Americas. If this claims is accepted by the various nations on the planet, their claims will be respected as well. This is the map of the territory that the Adriatic League requires, the land which is covered in white is territory that has already been accounted for and is either under Adriatic control or otherwise unavailable to parties who do not currently control it (just in case its too big or whatever):




As you can see the territory we ask for is quite modest with respect to other claims, and we can achieve this quite realistically, we ask that all members of the Pacific Pact honor this claim, when this occurs we will agian honor the Chinese Land Grant.

Thank you,

G. Bompinsiero

 

Posted by Prometheus on 06-04-2001 04:20:

Out of Character: I agree with Chris; no one should be taking any of this personally after all its just a game.

IC:

The Chinese Empire is outraged, how can we recognize this claim if it goes against our previous Agreement. Once again I will respond if you attempt to cross the Mississippi or the Rio Grande you will be attacked. And you might win but you will have to drive the Chinese off the New World all together. For as long as you decide to settle in our territory you will be our enemy, you talk about not a cause for war but you destroy our previous agreement and are threatening to violate Chinese Territory.

We ask the nations of the world not to recognize this claim not only for our sake but for your sake as well, already the Adriatic have more cities than anyone except the Mongols, and better land at that. Now they want a good portion of our land, how long will it be until they decide they want to make the Mediterranean an Adriatic Lake, how long till they decide that Greenland is proper territory of Europe, how long till they decide that all of North America is theirs for the taking. I ask the World to support the Chinese in this issue it is evident that the Adriatic have gone power hungry. We have all heard the words the Adriatic have spoken in the past how not to settle on there land and there racist comments toward the African Nations long ago; if they persist in this arrangement no nation will be able to stop them and they will even surpass the powerful Zulu’s.

We once again ask the Adriatic Empire to recognize our claims, everything west of the Mississippi and north of the Rio Grande including Baja California.

Posted by The Capo on 06-04-2001 06:23:

Statement from King Ferdinand of Habsburg to the Various Nations in response to the statement from Emperor (?) Prometheus...

As time has passed the true colors of the Chinese have shown through the veil they once wore. This is a stunningly sad tale; for thousands of years they have been subjected to vassalage by their neighbors. Sine the dawn of time they were surrounded and subjegated by the powerful Mongolian Khan War4Ever. They played an important, yet impotent role in the development of the Americas. Now they have threatened war against the States of the Adriatic League.

I think everybody realizes what is occuring here, let's not sugar coat the obvious or fight a war of words, it will get us nowhere. The issues at hand are territorial claims. Nothing more and nothing less. Thousands of years ago the Australians made a brash claim for their allies the Chinese, it was at this point, and after lengthly discussion that the King Lorenzo D'Medici agreed to honor these claims. It was understood that the Chinese would NEED this territory to expand after centuries of toiling under a Mongolian yoke, centuries of being a weak and pitiful country. Then arose a great leader in China, Prometheus. My Lord Medici respected his majesty Prometheus, and his new instutions; the Republic, exponential expansion, setting up contacts with foreign nations including our own. The gaps were bridged, China suprassed our allies the Israelies.

However in this time China underwent numerous changes, her allies who once held their collective foot over the throat of China were now making amends for their actions. Borneo, Kamchatka, Siberia, Japan; all new territories gained under the reign of Prometheus from foreign states. More specifically the allies of China. Korea and Manchuria were settled by Prometheus, and China was growing quickly.

All the while the seeds were being sown, the alliance that was established between the Mongols, Australians and Chinese was strong and imposing to the western nations who for centuries have argued amongst themselves over even the most pathetic stretches of desert land. The west, unlike the east, grew in a place where at any moment a horde of Adriatic, Israeli, Mali or Zulu troops could be outside of your capital. We grew in a world where distrust wasn't merely a negative quality, but a key aspect of survival. Only the strong, the willing, survived among the strong western leadership.

Centuries later, the American issue came to pass, countless hours spent at the homes of ambassadors, senators, dukes, kings and consuls were poured into the issue for the prevention of an all out war. One of the issues was the situation in China, at this point they were just beginning to experience the rise of Prometheus, their renaissance as our French say. It was common knowledge throughout the world that the Chinese plight was very real, and possibly less common knowledge that it was suffered primarily at the hands of its allies the Mongols. The Adriatics with a great deal of foresight realized this, and King Lorenzo D'Medici clamored against the Chinese claim, citing that if the Pacific Pact wished to amend the Chinese situation, they would do so by giving China the lands taken from under its nose. Politics agian hushed the Adriatics.

Politics got in the way of the truth, regardless of this, our majesty Lorenzo D'Medici failed to obsolve the problem and relented, accepting the Chinese land grant. Since that time the expansion in the New World by the Chinese has been zero percent, not an inch of land was gained, not one inch, not a bit of new land was developed, the same city in teh same place for centuries. Does this sound like the actions of a desperate nation?

Meanwhile, troops entered Mexico, and despite the Chinese insistance that they recognized this land as Adriatic during the Adriatic-Mali war, they moved into the area. Does this sound like the actions of a peaceful nation? Further the Australians claimed Mexico when they have no prescence in the immedeate vicinity, the Chinese their allies claim that the powerful garrison sent into Mexico is there to explore. Maps are available, I know for a fact that not only do the Adriatics have maps of Mexico, but the Zulu do as well. Further, why send your strongest units if this is mere exploring? Do these sound like the actions of explorers? Or plunderers?

With these latest activities by China, combined with the ominous message recieved by "Drunken officials" of China, the Adriatic League is forced to review the situation. We have made no threat of war, no movement towards war, or no words that would be condusive to war towards the Chinese, yet we are met with hostility. The Chinese, NAY THE ENTIRE ALLIANCE, made a bid for a Chinese land grant. We agreed. We made a claim, yet they deny us the same respect, why? Because they are imperialists? Because they have no respect for us? Becuase they have no appreciation for what we sacrificed? Because they are foolhardy?

The answers to these questions are tough, and moot, and would only be answered with assumptions. We do know this; if our land grants are not accepted we see no reason to accept the grants of any other nation. The Mali have accepted our claims thus we accept theirs, the Israelites have accepted our claims and we are thankful to our allies, the Zulu have accepted our claims and we appreciate the wisdom of Shakeem.

The Mongols had accepted our claims yet don't seem to respect them any longer, this is not strange, for they did the same to their "allies" the Chinese.

The Chinese accepted our claims during the war with the Mali, yet they have done nothing to acquire dominance over their grnats, and have let foreign powers who have in the past DOMINATED them to settle within this territory.

The Australians have offered nothing, have said nothing, and continue to say nothing.

This is our stance, so let it be written so let it be done.

Posted by GNGSpam on 06-04-2001 07:39:

Statement from the Malian Embassy

The Chinese people, for so long, have suffered ill fourtoune. They have lamented their fate to the great Empires of the world, and the whole world has offered sympathy. But have the Chinese ever contemplated their fate? Why do the Chinese lack a true homeland? Why are they forced to wonder the abandoned "left-overs" of Asia? Why are they offered only large expanses of land in areas their Asian Allies cannot control?

Have the Chinese thought, "who controls our homeland? Who intentionally took the great plains along the Yangtze and Yellow Rivers? Who owns, the homeland promised to the Chinese?"

The Adriatic League? So accused for hienously infringing on your New World claims? They have never been to China.

The Chinese, as a people, must come to a point, where they decide once and for all, who is responsible for their current dificulties, but more importantly, they must decide NOW, who is responsible for the Chinese future? Will your Mongol "allies", who luxeriate along the Yellow Rivers, who tax the Cantonese people, be allowed to dictate your future? Will you continue to be sent on a collision course with the Adriatic League? Ask yourself, have the Mongols promised to help you? Where is this "alliance" as you hurtle towards conflict?

The Chinese have suffered a horrible plight yes, but sooner or later, they must decide, do they allow the same forces which crippled them to continue to dictate their actions? Or do they grasp their future by their own hand, and stand up, and demand that their proud Nation be treated as a memeber of the world community.

Mali will help China, but first, China must help themselves...

Most Respectfully,
Diplomat to Beijing, Rahim Tingasso, Noble of Benin

Posted by sekong on 06-04-2001 08:00:

Ok, also out of charcter talk.

Thanks for the comments, Chris. I'm kind of new to dipo games. Your posts make clear some issues, thanks. When I first came to this game, Capo kinda of warning me that it's a dipo game not war game, etc. But later I found he was the one who play tough, and finally actually sneak attacked others. I was a bit confused. That's another part of the story beside what has been told.

I like Chris' explanation, and agree that we should not take anything personal. On the other hand, I against evil-role-playing. Inside and outside the game. Because it brings bad effect to our pratice in life. You may disagree with this, then please take this as my in-game role-playing.

Back to game issue:

1. After a short conversation with Adratic leader, we glad to know that they will withdraw their troops from Mongolia land. We welcome peace with Adratic.

2.About the new land claim of Adratic, I can see at least 2 problems: overlap with Chinese claim on Northwest, where no settlement done yet; overlap with Aussie claim on Southwest where city has been founded. we need somehow to solve these problems and maybe more if other member of our ally raise them.

3. As the request of Mail, their legion are allowed to come closer to city of Salzberg temporally, as long as they will keep the "Mopti land agreement", which is Mali will settle on east of Mopti; Mongol and allies will settle on west of Mopti. Considering the new AL claim, and the fact that our land claim will be shared by at least 2 countries, and there is no other power present in NA yet, Mali appears to have the best land claim, if not the largest claim on NA.

4. Based on an agreement with China, Bergen and another NA mongolia city, yet to be announced, will be ceded to China next turn.

Peace,

Consul of Mongol

Posted by sekong on 06-04-2001 14:22:

To King of Adratic League:

You are asking Mongolian to apology to you? Did you ever apology to Mali after you broke the peace agreement, attacked and destroyed their ship and the units on it? It's you who invaded the land of Mongol. Did you
ever apology for that?

Mongolian did nothing wrong. What should we apology for? First we asked your unit to left Issus, now it's even closer to the city. Further more you moved 2 more units on the land of Kabul. All of these invasion is just for an answer to your question? Anyway, we answered your question. But before you agree to left you threatened Mongol to be responsible if anything will happen. Such threat is unacceptable. Mongolian can only be responsible for what we did, nothing more. If you want to threaten us, and stay on the land of Mongolian, then it will be you who are responsible for the consequence of this invasion.

We said what we did is because:
1. the so-called agreement of leaving Moinglia territory comes with a threat.
2. From the recent report of Adratic, there is no sign of retreating.
3. From the history of Adratic League, it has a bad reputation of dishonoring treaty and agreements.

Look at the history of Adratic league: he performed bully behaviours to almost everyone having a border with him: broke the peace treaty with Mali and sneakly attacked them; Adratic city used 2 of the only 3 grassland on pathetic north Africa coast, which suppose to belong to Mali based your land agreement; invaded and threatened Mongolian; attempts to dispute the land claim of China when you just about to meet them. Yes, there seems to be one exception: alliance with Israelite. But it apears to do more harm than helpto them.

Your may have have fun with this kind of dipo, but it's based on the dislikeness, if we don't use the term suffering, of other nations. You better change it.

After you withdraw troops from Mongolia territory and apology for the invassion, you may have a better ground to talk. Show that you are a responsible leader, and having the wish of peace, then sure every one will like to talk about your land claims.

May God help you to realize your fault and we will welcome the change.

Sincerely,

Consul of all Mongolia tribes.

P.S. If there is anything I should apology, then it's maybe I took this a little more personal that it should be. If you keep your promise, withdraw
your troops from Mongolian territory, and promise won't come into the radius of our city without permission, willing to sitted down and talk about the land claimmings in NA, then maybe I was a little over-react. I would like to apology for the overreaction personally, but Mongolian have nothing to apology when their land are invaded.

Posted by GNGSpam on 06-04-2001 14:45:

Out of "Character" so to speak

Im only going to go through this once.

This is a game. More specifically this is a diplogame. To go one step further, it is a diplogame that we all love. Therefore the following things are expected-

1) People show up, on time, ready to play the full time, unless they tell us before hand (this means days before, not hours) they cant and why not.

2) People are civil and polite to each other OUTSIDE the game.

3) People do NOT take things seriously

4) People try to act like a national leader in the game, and treat their nation like a real nation.


Now. Let me clear some misconceptions.

War exists in a diplogame. Diplogames center around Politics. And as Clauswitz says, War is an extension of Politics.

Now, admittly, its an expensive and destructive option. It should not be taken lightly. But it IS an option and it WILL happen. We did not come here to make cities, build settlers, and then race for wonders. I can do that against the computer, its boring, its lame. We are here to be nations, this means alliances, treaties, border disputes, wars, trade, negotiations, etc etc etc. World War II happened in the real world? It can happen in a diplogame.

So we get to the issues now. Capo is acting like a bully? So what. If you think his nation is a bully, treat it like one. We are a community of 7 nations. If one is acting to big for his shorts, then slap him down. This is how international politics work.


Now, secondly, this isnt personnal! If someone invades you, rapes your women, and calls you a turkey, its in the game. Dont get offended. We cant all be good hearted caring democracies which love our people. There has to be a Russia, there has to be a Germany, we cant all be the good ole US of A. Its just spicing up the game. If we were all good, nothing would ever happen. It would be some disgustingly boring Utopia. Consider being bad ever once and awhile. You dont have to be bad all the time, just for a session or two, it adds depth to the game.


Dont turn this into a boring game with a 7 nation UN peacefully dividing everything making sure everyone is happy happy happy and holding hands. Lets try to add some spice and some depth, lets pretend its the real world. And when its all over, dont get pissed.

Posted by deity on 06-04-2001 14:50:

Capo, did you trick Easthaven, as a new sub, into giving or trading Chivalry with you? (He says he gave you Chivalry)

If this is true then you behaved irresposibly as organiser of this game.
The previous Mongol players would NOT have done this.
Our Eastern alliance has always consulted on such things and I briefed Easthaven as he hotjoined to take over from sekong. But you confused him in King Chat and you got Chivalry.
It's hard enough taking over as a sub without having someone like you clowning around like that.
I GAVE the Mongols massive numbers of techs earlier in the game as the first leader of the Mongols, War4ever, and Sekong would testify.

I don't mind losing strategic advantages from incidents that occur from within the game (and the storyline) but this, if true, is blatant pseudo-cheating.

I'm very un-impressed.

It changes the strategies in the game and reduces my enjoyment of what could have been a good game.

----

Also, it's ridiculous for Dimbleby, as host, to have gotten involved in a game where he has such restrictive deadlines.

But it was smart to play on with Sun Tzu as Israel's sub. Or maybe Sun could just take over... ?

Posted by Prometheus on 06-04-2001 15:46:

I agree with Deity.

However is it really fair that you (to blame or) kick Dimbleby out just because he can’t play longer after all when the game started you guys agreed on 8-11 so why is he expected to play longer. At the beginning we needed to decide the times, whatever they are.

I think we need to decide what is going on before next week… who’s playing and who is not and whatnot also. I know you are intent on continuing the game however I think we should give some thought to a restart. The game has had more subs than that I ever could imagine. So perhaps we should restart the game with a core group of people who can play long hours from say 8-12 EST or even 6-12 EST. But anything we decide is ok with me.

Posted by deity on 06-04-2001 16:57:

Yeah Prom,I'm sorry about that Dimb but I'm so cranky about the other incident.

BTW Capo, I take it all back if I got my facts wrong, but it doesn't look like it

I think we continue with this game but let's see what Dimb and others think.

And we could run another game as well, of course

Posted by The Capo on 06-04-2001 21:04:

I didn't trick Easthaven into anything.

Posted by deity on 06-04-2001 23:10:

Easthaven said he was confused about his allies.
You said you were everyone's ally (ha ha)
He hot joins and is trying to get his bearings with the Supreme civ with loads of cities and 60 units.... and you were badgering him in King Chat.

Posted by The Capo on 06-04-2001 23:43:

I don't see why I have to answer to this.

I asked him if he would like to exchange technologies, primarily Medicine and Chivalry. He said he would be interested. I asked him what he wanted and I didn't have anything he wanted. So we made a land agreement, an agreement towards the Panama Canal, and a technology agreement. How this is my fault is totally beyond me. He was told by myself and I believe Chris who he was allies with, if he was confused he should have stopped and asked me to clarify his situation, I don't think this is my responsability to not only guess at whether or not he was confused, but remind him that maybe he should talk to his allies.

Besides that point, I don't understand why his allies should have any say other than advisory in his personal dealings. I am not an enemy of the Pacific Pact, and never have been, so how does this even effect you?

As far as Dimblebly is concerned, I have to say a few things because the situation is delicate and I don't want anything to be made out of it other than what it is. Dimb, after you left everyone except I believe Prometheus remained in the game, host duties shifted to Easthaven. Overwhelmingly (100%) of everyone wanted to play, the most adimate about this were Chris and Deity. It was a tough situation to iron out, but basically the group decided that it would be best if you didn't play in this game. I don't think its fair to you or anyone else to continue, if you have more important issues such as a job, then maybe it is unwise for you to continue playing. This game requires *SOME* sacrifice, not a lot, just some we ask for a little leeway. I think I speak for everyone when I say this. If we have a situation where either (a) the game is hurt because you have other responsabilities or (b) your responsabilities are neglected for some game, then both sides are really not getting a fair shake. This is no personal attack on you Dimbleby, I myself hold you in the highest regard, you are always on time, rarely complain, and are about as dependable as one could get. But the problem is you aren't flexible, and at this point in the game we need some felxibility from everyone even if only temporarily. So that is the situation, we may discuss this matter over the course of the week, as usual nothing is set into stone. However, as of right now Sun Tzu will be taking over the Israelies until another means to an end is proffered.

---------------------

There's something I personally want to express at this time, I hope EVERYONE reads this. Over the past few weeks I have recieved a bad rap from damn near everyone, in particular Sekong and Deity. When I say *I* I don't mean the Adriatic League, or King Ferdinand, or Carlo or whoever is "in charge" I mean Antonin Vincenzo DeNucci. My actual being, not my character or policy in the game, but my flesh and blood. I am personally insulted, I consider myself one of the most cooperative players to be involved with, I never "cheat" or try to "trick" anyone during my games, I am quite trustworthy. Some of my characters aren't, but despite this many of you have attacked me personally for what I do in the game, some of you have complained and if I read what Deity said correctly suggested starting a new game.

If you have a problem with me, say it, don't give vague words. I want to know what exactly you have against Tony D?

This is not a personal attack against Sekong or Deity, I just want to hear what they have to say so I can address it.

Alright well, as of right now we resume next week at our usual time, but again we can probably change it now, so we'll talk, but the roster for next week is as follows:

The Capo - AL
Deity - Australia
Chris - Mali
Drake - Zulu
Prometheus - China
Sekong - Mongolia
Sun Tzu - Israel

I hope to see everyone on time, this past session (Despite a few noteable incidents) was good. It was a solid session with plenty of action, not to mention a timely start. There was a lot going on, so I hope everyone finds the time between now and Wednesday to send Drake something to put up on the website.

Peace.

Posted by drake on 07-04-2001 00:26:

Though we have had some struggles, there is no real reason to scrap a game that is progressing rather nicely. This diplo game genre gets a bad hit because games are almost never finished. Lets try not to be another statistic in the ever growing un-finished diplo game list. I made a comment last night to capo about how strong this group is as its persevered through all this sh1t. He agreed fully. Unless something un-bearable happens, lets continue the History of the World.

Posted by Mr Dimbleby on 07-04-2001 01:09:

That's fine. I can do things that I have had to give up since I started playing on Thursdays back when we started the old Ultradip.

Keep in touch Capo, let me know when you start another Dip game.

Posted by GNGSpam on 07-04-2001 03:40:

PostSome things to clear up.

First of all, nothing personnal to Dimble. Dimble has obligations he must fufill, life comes before Civ. He didnt want to bow out and leave us in a lurch, but we found a permenant replacement, and so now he does not need to worry about helping us out. I thank him for his time, but I know he was getting tired. His job apparently is pretty strict, and he couldnt committ a lot of time, further it was obvious he was getting disintrested in his Civ. SunTzu will at the least provide some spice to the Israel position.

Thank you Dimble for your time, and thanks SunTzu for helping out also.

To the Chivalry thing, I dont know what happened. Capo is a pretty good guy, and I dont think he intentially tricked Easthaven. It is possible Easthaven however was confused and made a trade that Sekong would not have, but if that is so, that is no ones fault.

To prevent this in the future, let me suggest this to all future Subs. When they enter the game, whoever their closest ally is, the person who has to leave should designate them, the closest ally should inform the Sub of all prior agreements and stances to other nations. In the Mongols case it would have been China or Australia to tell them whats up, not Capo. Further, Subs should NOT trade techs, make new agreements, or basically ANYTHING significant in the least (unless its time sensetive and obvious what the course of action should be). In essence the Sub will be auto-pilot, manage the civ, maintan status quo. This isnt great for Subs, and im sorry for that, but on the plus side, considering the rate of turnover we have for players, every Sub has a decent shot at a "fulltime" spot =)

Now, to the game. This is a GOOD game. Its VERY exciting and going wonderfully. All problems we have had with it have not been IN game but OUT of game. Its important to remember that. The game is going great, if we could ever play it. Now, we have managed 3 very constant players, Capo, Drake, and Deity, who have played the same civs from the start, and are 3 of the 5 dominant powers. Prometheus has played all except the very first session, and all except 2 as China, and he has done an EXCEPTIONAL Job playing them. Sekong covered Mali for 2 sessions, but has played the last 3 as Mongolia for War4ever and seems set there. I, inexcusably, was absent for 3 sessions due to personnal reasons out of my control. Its not much of an excuse, but I am back, have been on time, prompt, and im set. Thats 6 of the 7 Civs set and have been set for 3 sessions and in all likelyhood will remain set. SunTzu is now Israel, and though he has had some issues in the past, I suspect he is there for good. So we have 7 set people in the Diplogame, have had only the beginning session of China under AI, and everyone now is ready to play some extended sessions. I would say this diplogame is in better shape then quite a few which are forced to run with only 4 or 5 people.

That being said, let the games go on

Posted by sekong on 07-04-2001 04:47:

First, i have to agree with Chris that the game is in great shape. I would hate it if I could not continue to be part of it.

2nd, I would say, Capo, as personal, has earned me great respect till last night. You sure have great ability of organize the group, making the best the decission for the group, and always open for negotiation/discussion. There was miscommunication times, but generally can be solved. I treasure it. As capo suggested, I'll take the game issue within the game.

3rd. about the tech issue. I confirm with deity that Mongolia got a lot help in tech from our alliance with Aussie. The problem happened because I could not play last night, sorry to my allies. Now I think it would be nice if king of Adratic League could tell us what's the details of the so-called "Panama agreement".


Thanks for bearing with me, my friends.

Posted by GNGSpam on 07-04-2001 04:47:

Suggested Rule change/addition

Increase the movement of ALL ships by 2.

Posted by GNGSpam on 07-04-2001 04:54:

I also suggest Caravals have their defense increased from 1 to 2 leaving their final stats at 2/2 (right now they are 2/1, same as the longship)

Posted by drake on 07-04-2001 06:11:

I think 2 add. moves is a lot to ask....I'd vote for one first i think.....

Thanks for the positive vibe sekong.....we definetly need to keep personal issues out of the game

So can you start early next week sekong? Anyone else?

Posted by deity on 07-04-2001 08:48:


We just missed it in the King chat but I feel you are being deceptive Capo.
This is your smiley after bragging in King Chat to everyone about how smart you were to have done this deal:

From Imperator Carlo V D'Habsburg (A.D. 480): >
To King Prometheus, Consul Easthaven X (A.D. 480): East
To King Prometheus, Consul Easthaven X (A.D. 480): I'm just talking to allies
From Consul Easthaven X (A.D. 480): i just gave him chivalry

Your tone in your replies is calm and resasonable but I got a real mischievous sense in the game that you knew you'd pulled off a fast one on Easthaven. You were bragging about it and chatting to all players at the time.

And in story terms don't you think allies would be consulted about that canal issue. Did Easthaven realise you were blocking the canal and charging a toll to other nations? [Not mine though, since I have my own canal ]
And Sekong has asked to be informed of this agreement his civ has signed which he has no knowledge of!

---

I can clearly delineate your game 'characters' but I think 'Capo' blurred that boundary with this incident. You knew what you were doing.

I love your characters.

I just felt your skylarking around and doing this deal was not in the best interests of the game and I'm sure you know that. Sekong or War4ever, as stated, would NEVER have done this deal.

---

I never said to start a new game other than as an extra game. Someone else suggested starting this again, not me.

I'm really prepared to continue with THIS game.
I know we'll get over this and my sense of humour may even return
It is a great game and I want to see it finished.
I can start a bit earlier and play a lot later as a general rule.
Your next Thursday is our Good Friday but still fine by me.

---

I'm a bit sorry I started that thing with Dimb and now it's lead to him out of the game, it seems.
Bit rough but the consensus was there.


Posted by deity on 07-04-2001 09:01:


I've said this in other games.
You can't change rules mid game.

I was not happy with the Longship suddenly losing its non-sinking ability regardless of whether it was a rules.txt mistake or not.
And I'm certainly dead against increasing ship movement now.
It changes so many strategic things...

Games must start and end on the same level playing field.

Posted by The Capo on 07-04-2001 14:49:


My idea of a diplogame is the opposite of the common idea which is to have numerous restrictions. In my game there are little to no restrictions (other than as far as bribing goes) and this includes removing SDI and changing Fundy, I want to stress the liberty one should take, Diplomacy is not the same as Democracy. I don't expect a bunch of little United Nations running around, I want a plethora of characters, which is why I try my hardest to bring to the table a new type of leader.

When I act the way I act, I am representing a realistic type of person: A European Monarch. No less a Habsburg, I think anyone who has even the slightest amount of knowledge of 17th century Europe would know that if anything I am doing the Habsburgs no justice at all, they were arrogant brash egotists, while I may be those from time to time, I am more egalitarian than they have ever been (and for that matter than most European Monarchs whether Bourbons, Habsburgs, Brandenburgs, etc.) have been. If you feel my character is bad, then judge him with your characters, don't jude me.

Again, muchas gracias to Easthaven, I give him a lot of sh1t but he's a stand up guy.

Deity: Don't hate the player hate the game.

Posted by deity on 07-04-2001 14:55:

 

Back to the story:

Paul is totally frustrated and upset at the apathy in the world over the Panama issue.
Surely there are some nations of principle?
The AL has blocked the passageway with a tri that is within the city radius of the Aussie city of Panama and are I believe they are charging a toll.
You may not need to use the seaway through Panama at the moment but there comes a time when you may.
Paul is also curious about the appearance of Mali Longships in the area that are also on sentry duty? Why is this?

Australia itself continues to prosper but Paul¡¦s pre-occupation with South America is a bit alarming. He's always been fascinated by banana republics and now he has several growing quite well (republic colonies not bananas!) but with a Republican Government corruption swipes over half of the income.

Back in Broken Hill a total c**k-up occurred. They were meant to build The Oracle. But no, these outback hicks rush built the Oracle and then called it Sun Tzu's War Acadamy, losing some 100 shields or 2 caravans
Anyway, that may prove to be a blessing in disguise as World affairs unfold....

Trade to distant nations is at present a dream but the imminent arrival of Navigation may prove to change this. Currently plans are focussing on trading with our great allies, the Mongols and the Chinese.

Our new technology program is developing well.

The mysterious King Shakeem of the Zulus was keen to send caravans of exotic goods to Australia but we have yet to see any sign of such goods? He also proposed that we share in building a massive road program in South America. Paul would like to have exchanged maps to clarify where our respective cities are but he did not want my allies to see his map, even if our allies were happy to trade maps. Bit tricky this, maybe we just send explorers into each others land?


Posted by SunTzu on 07-04-2001 16:07:

Well SunTzu is in for the long haul, i was informed on some treaties, and how dimb didn't even try and get a piece of the americas......well i gotta get some land/money/science somehow. So i'm thinking of cancelling this treaty banning my to ask for toll for the Suez Canal. Well....i think next session on gonna charge 10gold for each turn of use at the canal. Gotta fund the rising Israelite Nation somehow

Posted by sekong on 08-04-2001 05:38:

Now he is bullying on his only ally. Let's see how far he can go. The Consul of Mongol smiles.

Posted by The Capo on 08-04-2001 06:31:

 

I am not bullying on my ally. His country in involved in a treaty that has this rule in effect. I am informing him of the alliance he has signed. Sun Tzu may speak with me privately if he has issues here, but the treaty has been signed, and there are some specifics he should know about before he does something like this.

If I had failed to tell Sun of the parameters of the agreement, thus prompting him to block the Suez and charge money, which in turn would cost him upwards of 300 gold, then I would be bullying him.

It looks like Mongolia is arguing a stance that does not exist. I have yet to bully any nation, I'd like some specific examples of my "bullying" ways. OBJECTIVE examples would be better, but since we are talking about the Mongols we are most likely going to get a one sided story/argument, I await his rebuttal...

Posted by sekong on 08-04-2001 07:44:

It was just my role playing speaking. I hope Capo did not take it personal. Otherwise, I don't dare/want to continue.

Peace,

Ray

Posted by deity on 08-04-2001 08:48:

Open message to all nations.

Like the Panama Canal, in principle the Suez Canal should be freely available to all nations of the world, since they are natural watercourses on this planet and no nation has spent any funds in building a canal. But if the AL can block a canal half a world away (and in Aussie territory) and charge a toll I think it even more legitimate that the Israelis charge a toll for the Suez Canal which is in their territory!

Sun Tzu, can you publish this agreement your nation has signed to allow free access to member signatories?

Posted by sekong on 08-04-2001 08:54:

We have to agree with our Aussie ally.
-- Consul of Mongol.

Posted by SunTzu on 08-04-2001 09:39:

Well here's the problem i wasn't around when this alleged agreement was signed, so i think it should be void. For all i know capo can be making up half the agreement to go to his advantage, the agree itself is stupid, the canal is in my territory and i have the right to charge for its use. And i will do so next session. King SunTzu declares the FAWA treaty canceled on the Israelites side and will charge a toll of 10gold a turn.

Posted by deity on 08-04-2001 13:35:

Although Paul of the Aussies believes all the water ways of the world should be free for all nations to travel we accept that the Israelis have more right than any other to charge a modest toll such as the 10 gold being asked. Paul accepts this.

Posted by The Capo on 08-04-2001 14:18:

I would think twice Sun, the agreement has that whoever breaks it pays a fine of 100 gold per signor. That is how it was agreed upon, which means as there are THREE signors, your total fine for breaking the treaty would be 300 gold (150 to Mali, 150 to me).

So what's better? Not charging 10 gold per use and keeping 300 gold, or comming up with 300 gold to pay?

I think you see my point.

Posted by Prometheus on 08-04-2001 15:16:

I don’t think we should be changing any more of the rules around midway through the session. I won’t know if I can play at an earlier time till later this week, but I will be able to play as late as you guys want.

Anyway back to the game…


The Issue of the Panama Cannel and the Suez:

The Israelites we acknowledge have full territorial control over the Suez and therefore have the right to charge a price of passage, which we believe to be a reasonable sum. While we are not aware of Israeli-Adriatic affairs we believe the new Israeli government has full authority to undertake the charging of a sum. The prior agreement which, we are led to believe would award 150 to each the Mali and the Adriatic’s, is flawed as the only way to force Israel to pay would be to declare war.

The Panama Cannel while in control of Adriatic ships is in Australian and international territorial waters and therefore we do not think that the Adriatic should be stopping traffic. With news of the Mali ships, the Chinese wonder if perhaps the Mali will be blockading the Adriatic blockade of the cannel.

In any event the Chinese have no interest really in any of the cannels, as we will not be using them. But the Chinese do second their allies’ sentiment of free waterways.

Posted by deity on 08-04-2001 15:17:

 

Just so all nations have a clear idea of how the AL are blocking the Panama Seaway within my city radius....



------------------
*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

Posted by GNGSpam on 08-04-2001 15:40:

Israel has an agreement with Mali and the Adriatic providing free access to Mali and the AL, but charging a fee to everyone else. Further there is an agreement preventing ANY ship in the Mediterreanean except for Mali, Adriatic, or Israel, unless those 3 nations give approval, and Gilbaltor also has a fee, except for Mali, Israel, and the Adriatic. This was published as the FAWA or something on this forum.

No I do NOT think you should be able to go back on all of your treaties Sun just because your new. You can try to renegotiate but this is a diplogame, you dont get a blank slate just because you just joined, that would be like the US pulling out of NATO everytime a new President is elected.

Of course you could just not recognize the treaty and assume Mali and the AL wouldnt do anything about it, thats up to you.

Posted by deity on 08-04-2001 15:59:


Well, if a transient Mongol leader can start throwing away Eastern Pact techs then I'm sure Sun Tzu can establish his own set of rules about HIS territory

Posted by The Capo on 09-04-2001 00:53:

"Eastern Pact" techs, thats funny Deity.... you should consider a career in stand up comedy.

Posted by The Capo on 09-04-2001 00:56:

(Terms of Free Atlantic Waters Treaty)

The following terms are to be collectively known as the Free Atlantic Waters Treay (or FAWT) and are to be signed into effect by the Unified Adriatic Kingdoms (Adriatic League), the Nation-State Mali, and the Kingdom of Israel.

I. No vessels carrying the banner of the signors of this agreement are to be present within the waters of the Mediterranean ocean upon signing of this treaty, unless one or more of the following criteria:
a. The vessel is one of strict transport, meaning that it has no attack value higher than 1.
b. The vessel is entering for purposes of upkeep after it has been attacked and has suffered damages and is headed for a city which MUST have a port facility capable of fixing said damage.
c. The vessel is accessing the Mediterranean for the purpose of traversing to another ocean (ie from Atlantic to Indian, or vice versa).

II. No vessels carrying the banners of other nations are to be permitted in the mediterranean unless all of the following criteria have been met:
a. payment is made to one or more of the signors of this treaty.
b. all signors of this treaty have agreed to this nation's enterance into the mediterranean.
c. the ship must continue movement at all times in the same general direction towards either exit (Gibraltar, Suez).
d. the nation must be in a state of peace with all signors regardless of either criteria a, b, or c.

III. In order for foreign vessels to traverse the straights of Gibraltar they must pay a sum of thirty gold, which may be amended to any fund deemed at a later date by the signors, to the United Adriatic Kingdoms and to the Nation-State of Mali. At which point this sum is split in halves to each side. Two vessels of the Adriatic League are to be placed in charge of this task, they will be dispatched at (66,42) and (65,43) any further ships may be provided by the Adriatic League within these boundries but are not permitted within the Mediterranean Ocean as provided for in section I.

IV. The Panama canal is to be of free access to all signors of this agreement and is owned by the United Adriatic Kingdoms. The Adriatic League may not prevent any signor of this treaty of free and uncontested access to this canal for a period of 500 years of peace, any act of war will void this period. After 500 years the Adriatic League may reserve rights to this canal if it deems fit.

V. The Suez Canal is the sole propery of the Kingdom of Israel. Access through the Suez must be proffered to the United Adriatic Kingdoms and the Nation-State of Mali, and may not be removed by the Kingdom of Israel ever. The Kingdom of Israel may charge any sum of money for a foreign nation to pass a ship through this canal subsequent to the terms of section II.

VI. Any act of war between the signors will void this treaty. Any omission by either the Nation-State of Mali, the United Adriatic Kingdoms or the Kingdom of Israel will remove the status of "signor" from that nation.

VII. All signors hereby agree to this treaty and the terms therein, any act which goes against this treaty will result in fines not in excess of 100 gold per each signor.

Posted by The Capo on 09-04-2001 01:01:

This treaty was created and signed into effect on 3.29.01 in our days, so any suggestions that it was "just made" are ridiculous.

I am pretty sure one or more of you would suspect me of this...

Posted by SunTzu on 09-04-2001 13:45:

Well i'd just like to say that the new government of the Israelites has canceled our end of the agreement and will start a toll on OUR Canal which is in our waters and land boundaries.
It has been written in the Israel Canal Act that a fee of 10gold per turn will be charged.

Posted by GNGSpam on 09-04-2001 13:58:

You are just going to CANCEL it? Does China, Mongolia, and Australia support this going back on a signed treaty?

Posted by sekong on 09-04-2001 14:14:

We don't support it.

Posted by GNGSpam on 09-04-2001 15:35:

So the Mongols and the remaining Asian Alliance feel as though Israel should and must continue to abide by the terms of the treaty they had previously signed?

Posted by deity on 09-04-2001 16:24:

Paul does not believe such a treaty ever existed and mistrusts the European fork-tongues.
Sun Tzu of the Israelis is free to do as he wishes in his country with his land, including thge Suez.

Panama, however is not in AL territory and Paul is perplexed at the position taken by the AL on this....

Posted by GNGSpam on 09-04-2001 16:33:

Why does Australia not recognize the treaty? Because it was not posted on the forum prior to this argument?

Posted by The Capo on 09-04-2001 22:21:

Regardless of how the Australians hold us as far as reputation goes, and regardless of Sun Tzu's change of heart, this treaty stands. It is an official treaty and was created centuries (a session or two) ago. For Sun Tzu to spit upon this treaty is highly disrespectful not only to me and the Mali who colaborated on this document, but to the people of Israel who deserve a fair and honest leader. Further, for the Pacific Pact to get involved in affairs that are not of their concern, and to use politics as an excuse for Israel to break the treaty is beyond me.

If it is Israel's perogative to leave the treaty, they owe the Mali and Adriatic League 150 Gold each. That is the way the treaty was written, and that is what I am holding my ALLY to. Regardless of how close our relationship is, and regardless of how much technology and money I have given to him in the past, I do not expect this to be a free ride for Israel; the Mediterranean Pact is not a welfare state, it is a mutual cooperation.

I am saddened that this incident has occured, I will discuss the matter in private with Israel in order to save this situation from blowing up into something it should not have blown up into. Thank you for listening.

King Cosimo D'Medici

Posted by The Capo on 10-04-2001 10:12:

The wind that morning was biting and cold, the snow hard and unyeilding.

Corporal Narducci surveyed the Mongolian encampment from the hill, and turned to his advisor "Take a look" he said as he handed Captain Rossi the telescope "See that? They added another brigaded of mounted Samurai (knights) that makes what? 1,000 more?"
"Yes Corporal, I see. What are we going to do?" asked the captain, returning the telescope.
"What can we do Bernardo, send word to Orsoni, we need more reserves. Hand my my ledgers." the captain ran down the hill into the tent looking for the documents, just then loud trumpets could be heard from behind, it was hard to make out in the thick snow but a band of mounted soldiers seemed to be making their way down the path. "BERNARDO!" yelled Corporal Narducci "Go to! See who comes!"
The Captain ordered some men to go see who it was, the soldier yelled back but it was undecipherable to the Corporal. "Corporal, they are Templars! They wish to speak with you!"
The Corporal stood for a while "Send their commander Bernardo!" he looked again towards the Mongolian encampment, when the man approached.
"I am Jacques DeMolay, commander of the Templars, we have been ordained by the Pope himself!" he said proudly.
Narducci hated Crusaders, they weren't professionals by any stretch, they were religious zealots who turned against their own faith for glory, to him they were hypocrites "Look here" he handed DeMolay the telescope "See the Mongolian encampments, it had grown by at least a thousand men."
"I see" said DeMolay "Mounted Samurai, hmm, what's the current plan in this situation?" he asked.
"Nothing really, we have orders to patrol the border, nothing more nothing less, we have requested more reserves... who sent you?" asked the Corporal.
"I was sent my the Pope Pious II, he wanted to know what the situation was with us and the Moslems." he said, as he handed back the telescope.
"This isn't about religion, its just a border patrol." replied the Corporal, DeMolay stared at him.
"Everything is about religion... we are setting up camp over in that field there, I will speak with you in the morning, I too will call for some reserves. It seems as if we will need them. Good day Corporal... a Monacan like myself is not used to this bitter winter, I shall now retire to my tent, adieu." with that DeMolay left.

The Captain walked up the hill again "What did he say Corporal?" he asked Narducci.
"Not much Bernardo, the church has dipped their beaks into this. I am not happy that the Templars are here." said the Corporal "Send the word to Orsoni, we need more men, this is getting interesting....."

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