The Industrial Age

[Dominae]

Hello folks,

Many players believe (rightly, IMO) that most games are "won" or at least decided long before the third Age. But there are still those few games where this is not true: maybe you started in a really bad spot and spent most of your early-game catching up; or maybe you're playing a MP game where no one dared attack before Cavalry; and maybe you just set the difficulty to Deity and could not make any ground due to the fast tech rate and production bonuses. Whatever the reason, the Industrial Age is the perfect place to get ahead.

Yet, as far as I can tell, many players do not play the Industrial Age as well as they could. I'm guessing this is for one or more of the following reasons: 1) things get pretty complex later on in the game, with all those cities, Workers and military units to take care of, 2) there are so many goodies in the Industrial Age (Railroads, Mutual Protection Pacts, Theory of Evolution, oh my!) that it's easy to just say "everything is good" and not look for the best strategy, 3) extensive Cavalry campaigns are more interesting than all that tech and production stuff back home, and 4) the tendency to copy what the AI does (more on this later). There are surely other reasons.

My hope in this thread is to discuss what I believe to be "good plays" in the Industrial Age, focusing specifically on tech advancement. Like no other Age, the Industrial one offers the most "stuff", yet is pretty linear in terms of what is best to grab first.

Without further ado: the Industrial Age, tech by tech (well...almost).


First Tech

Let's say you're not playing a Scientific civ: which tech do you tend to research first in the Industrial Age? The answer should be easy: Steam Power. Always always go for Steam Power first.

Let's first consider the alternatives.

There's Nationalism, which admittedly gives a bunch of useful stuff. Yet how much of it is really critical to a strong game? The answer is: almost everything for the AI, almost nothing for the human player. The AI loves Nationalism, and with good reason: it relies heavily on the Draft ability to defend itself; it's poor defensive tactics make Riflemen a necessity (the human player would just use heavily fortified Musketmen and Cavalry for defense at this stage of the game); it needs to get to Communism to fight more "efficiently", and Nationalism is a prerequisite; it signs Mutual Protection Pacts to create a coalition against a strong human player. As alluded to, the human player need not employ any of these strategies, and typically does not because they're not really all that optimal. Most of what comes with Nationalism helps the AI in what the AI has been coded to do; human players have a bit more flexibility (a lot more, actually). The only important addition in Nationalism for the human player is MPPs, and these can usually wait until the AI researches Nationalism, which can be obtained through a trade. Mobilization is an interesting ability, but is only really useful for continuing a Cavalry campaign; if much of the game is still to be played, Mobilization does not provide the tools to generate a long-term advantage.

And then there's Medicine. This tech is a gateway tech, and therefore must be judged on the merits of what it allows access to. Obviously the AI loves Sanitation, simply because it uses a rather loose city-spacing when it can. Before Hospitals, large AI empires will be full of tiles which are completely unused. Human players need not let this happen, and can use a tighter-spacing to ensure that all tiles are used before Hospitals, which severely discounts the usefulness of Sanitation. If you think Sanitation is a great tech, you're probably not spacing you cities as tightly as you should. And even if you plan on disbanding some cities to grow others to great sizes, you'll probably want to get Railroads first, to help in your pop boom. Medicine also leads to Scientific Method and the oh-so-awesome Theory of Evolution. Therefore Medicine definitely needs to be obtained eventually. But since the AI makes a point of researching it, you're better off just trading for it after you've reached Electricity.

This leaves us with, you guessed it, Steam Power. What a great tech. Railroads...what a great tile improvement. If you think about it, Railroads provide an increase in your economy comparable to the switch out of Despotism, and that's huge!. Sure, you need to put some Worker-turns into getting the bonus everywhere, but then again you need not suffer a government transition, and the bonus applies to every non-water tile (as opposed to the switch out of Despotism, which only helps a few selected Bonus tiles if you've been terraforming correctly). In most cases you can expect +10 or so Shields per turn in every city due to Railroads. Nationalism and Medicine do not even compare to this. And there's more! As if the production bonus was not enough, Railroads also provide that nifty "teleport" ability to all your units within your adjacent borders. Who needs Riflemen for defense when you can have all your Cavalry and any Musketmen you think you'll need at any spot in your empire instantaneously? Even offensives are that much simpler because your reinforcements can get close to the front a lot faster. What's more, even your Workers benefit, as they'll fly across the map, finishing up any jobs you need done.

Railroads are so important that I think a few moments can be taken to discuss some strategy concerning how to build and use them most efffectively. First of all, near the end of the Medieval Age, you should be thinking of getting your Worker-force up to 1.5 to 2 times it's current strength. Sure, you lose pop in your beautiful cities. But just think of what you're getting: Railroads set up that much quicker, which basically means you can get your pop up quicker too if you Railroad over Irrigation. A neat trick is to build many Workers, then Irrigate over Mines so as to get some crazy Food production once your Railroads appear. With +10 Food surplus, your cities will regain any pop lost to Workers in a hurry. And, when all your Railroads are down, you can always just get extra Workers to Join your cities (this works best if you do have Sanitation, as your cities can grow to arbitrary sizes). I highly recommend setting up a Railroad network that reaches the highest number of tiles before anything else, like connecting all cities or putting Railroads around your big Wonder city. The reason is that you want every tile in your empire to be within two tiles of a Railroad (a one tile separation), since with this setup a Worker can reach any tile in your empire in one turn and still have movement left over to begin working immediately. Most of the time such a network will coincide with the network that unites all cities, so there's not much thinking to do. But always just try to aks yourself: how many Road tiles is my new Railroad tile going to be adjacent to? The answer should only be "not many" if you're near the end of your "Railroad phase". Another suggestion that is probably obvious is that you should always get your Workers to "team up" to build Railroads, preferably in one turn. You can then get other Workers to move along that tile for free. This is not wasteful, as moving many Workers onto a Road tile does not waste any Worker-turns (as it would in the Ancient Age with un-roaded tiles).

Also, if you're fighting a war, try not to forget to spare a few Workers to bring along with your offensive. You should have enough Workers that you can build up a Railroad all the way to your forward positions, and even have some left over to rush a Fortress in a single turn. If your enemy is on the same continent and not behind a neighbor's borders, remember that you can bring any Worker from your own territory to "the front" instantaneously along Railroads (gotta love 'em!).

Recap: Steam Power is one of the best techs in the game; you should almost always get it before Nationalism or Medicine.


Second Tech

Well, you now have Steam Power, and your Workers are busily laying down rails everywhere. What next? You could go back for Nationalism or Medicine, or push forward for either Industrialization or Electricity. Well, I can safely say that you should push on, but which of the two next techs you choose is actually a tough call.

Electricity. Here, you get two abilites: your Workers complete jobs faster, and you can Irrigate tiles without fresh water. Depending on the game, the second ability could be very good, but most of the time it's irrelevant. The question is therefore: do I need my Workers to work faster? Given my comments on Steam Power, the answer I think is a resounding "yes". Getting the Railroad network down simply makes everything easier (even tech research, although indirectly). But there's another thing to consider here: Electricity leads to Replaceable Parts! I'll get into this awesome tech later, but for now let's just say that Replaceable Parts is a good enough incentive to make Electricity much more attractive that it's abilities alone.

Industrialization. I'm a big fan of Factories. If you're winning or losing, Factories are a must-have in all your reasonably-productive cities. Assuming my military is sufficient to hold my position, I'll typically drop everything in my core cities to build Factories. I'll even rush a few in my biggest cities. Coal Plants are a different issue. When considering whether or not to build these, it is important to think about what your city is going to be building afterwards. Is it going to be Cavalry, Infantry, Ironclads, Artillery? Answer this question, and check out how much those things cost compared to how much Production your city can generate. You'll then know if it's useful or not to build that Coal Plant. For instance, let's say you want to continue building Cavalry (80 Shields) in a city with a Shield output of 40 Shields (with a Factory). Then building the Coal plant yields an output if ~47 Shields, but those 7 extra Shields go to waste when building Cavalry, which you can already finish in two turns. It is therefore better to wait for Hoover Dam to boost Factory output in that particular city. Notice, however, that if you were to build Infantry (90 Shields) in that city, the 7 extra Shields would be worth it, because you would reduce your time-to-completion of Infantry from 3 turns to 2. Doing this analysis for all your core cities should tell your where you need Coal Plants.

That was a big tangent. What else does Industrialization give you? Universal Suffrage, a good but not fantastic Wonder. Industrialization leads to Espionage (whatever) and The Corporation, which can give an edge in a close tech battle via Stock Exchanges.

So which one is better, Industrialization or Electricity? One of the major things you should be thinking about is building the Theory of Evolution as quickly as possible. If you're in a tech race, this Wonder will do more for you than Stock Exchanges. Therefore, Industrialization should be considered on the merits of Factories and Coal Plants alone. Since these can always be pre-built, I suggest researching Electricity first. This way, while you're pre-building your expensive Factories, your super-Workers are ensuring that your tiles are providing the most they possibly can. Then, Industrialization comes just at the right time to switch over to Factories, and when these are done you get a good idea of the full production capacity of your empire. What should you prebuild Factories with? Good question. I mostly use Wonders, the Palace and Coliseums, but if you've been a toal warmonger you could even have Universities available (yes, Factories come before Universities for me).

Another reason why Electricity is to be preferred is that the AI rarely gets it before you do, assuming you reach the Industrial Age at more or less the same time. While the AI is busy with Communism and Sanitation, you grab Electricity (a good tech), then trade it for a killing.

Recap: Your second tech is a tough decision between Industrialization and Electricity. Everything else being equal, you want to get Electricity first, to boost your Railroad efforts, while pre-building for Factories.


Then What?

So far we have (more or less):

Steam Power
Electricity
Industrialization

You've probably also picked up a few techs through trades by now (like Nationalism and Medicine). Let's say this is not the case; what do you go for (either in trades or research) next? I see four avenues depending on the game:

1. Peaceful Scientist. Here you want to get to The Corporation for Stock Exchanges. Building five of these allows Wall Street, and all this should peak your research capacity until the Modern Age (Commercial Docks aside). The only problem is if you're planning on having big (size 14+) metropolises. Then you'll want to build your Hospitals first, then your Stock Exchanges. Population typically comes before anything else, because pop translates into more of everything. Therefore, if you want big cities, Medicine should be first.

2. Peaceful Builder. Here you want to get your cities as big as your land will allow, ideally having each city working all tiles within its radius (no overlap). This is tough to pull off without disbanding some cities, unless you've been using loose spacing all along, which you should not do (did I mention that already?). You'll get big cities and your upkeep costs will be low, setting yourself up for a nice end-game. Medicine is therefore the tech to get, as a lead-in to Sanitation.

3. Warmonger. Now we're talking! Here the tech to beeline for is Replaceable Parts. Cavalry are great, but Infantry and Artillery are a guarantee. You'll always get your Shields-worth out of those two units. If you're ahead or behind, nothing punches through well-defended Infantry stacks and nothing resists Artillery bombardment. As you can see, those two units are among my favorites in the game, making Replaceable Parts very very attractive for me. If you're doing any amount of fighting, getting this tight before or after your enemy is essential.

4. Theory of Evolution beeline. As I've mentioned before, in the Industrial Age what you should be thinking about is securing this Wonder. The great part is, this is relatively easy against the AI, because the AI wastes so much time on other techs; I laugh pretty hard when I construct the ToE, and see that the AI has just researched Espionage (sometimes I cry...). What is interesting is that because the AI is so "bad" at securing the ToE, you actually have some leeway in what techs you want to grab before Scientific Method. If you're confident the AI will not beat you to it (or to the ToE...breaking the Wonder cascade is a sure-fire way to get the ToE, just watch our for Universal Suffrage) there is no problem with researching, say, Replaceable Parts first. However, if you're behind in tech, the Scientific Method beeline is very important. You cannot even afford to get Industrialization first. This is somewhat counter-intuitive, since Factories speed up Wonder production immensely. You should instead start a Palace pre-build way back in the Medieval Age, and hope this trick gets the ToE build before the AI does.

Recap: Depending on your position in the game, you have many choices after Industrializaiton. But you must remember that the most important thing is securing the Theory of Evolution. If you're reasonably certain that another civ will not beat you to it, it's okay to get other techs before Medicine and Scientific Method, such as Replaceable Parts (highly recommended).


Evolution

The best-case scenario concerning the ToE is that you have a pre-build big enough to complete this Wonder the turn you obtain Scientific Method. You would then set Science to 0% for one turn, so as not to waste any Commerce. If you are researching a tech, building the ToE will waste all the Beakers you've accumulated already, since it gives you that tech for free. Sometimes research is a necessary evil while building the ToE, especially when you're not sure if you're going to secure it or not (you'll not want to have been idle research-wise if you do lose the ToE!).

Ok, you finally build the Theory of Evolution. The Wonder picture pops up, and you think for a minute about the plight of man and animal on this planet....back to the game! Then what?

The best thing to do, IMO, is grab Atomic Theory and Electronics for free. This catapults you very far along the bottom branch of the tree, that much closer to Motorized Transportation. You also just make it to Hoover Dam, which is essentially yours because no opponent is ever going to research the necessary techs and build it before you do. You can then sell the techs you got for free, preferably whoring them around among multiple civs. To continue this strategy, you would then research Radio next, selling that for a bunch, including large parts of the upper branch (Refining, Steel, Combustion, etc.). Really, once you get the Theory of Evolution, you're not only guaranteed two free techs, but the trading power to keep you in the game until the end of the game. That's a lot for one little Wonder.

I suppose you could also grab Steel and Refining with the ToE, hoping to get to more modern boats and planes. To me, that's not incentive enough, especially when you consider that AIs research the top branch quite well because it splits, while the bottom branch is linear and therefore all yours to whore if you're first along it.

Recap: Try not to have begun any research projets when you finish the Theory of Evolution. Once you secure this Wonder, the best techs to grab for free are Atomic Theory and Electronics.


Happy, Shining Future

You're doing good now! You've got a tech lead, and your economy is top-notch. Where to? After the Theory of Evolution, you'll have all you need in terms of trading power to grab all those techs you avoided on the way to the top; time to take a break and treat yourself to all those minor techs the AI is so fond of (Communism, Espionage, Sanitation, Steel). But you still want to do research, right?

Above I suggested Radio, but that's just a trick to get even more trading power. What you're really aiming for now is Motorized Transportation. It's no coincidence that it's the most difficult tech to reach in the Industrial Age (you need to complete both bottom and top branches to get to it): with Tanks, the game changes drastically, and so it's unbalancing if any one civ gets there with too much of a lead. Most probably it will be the last tech to research in the Age (assuming you proceeded to Radio after the ToE), and you'll be thrust into the Modern times.

The later optional Industrial Age techs are (unfortunately) irrelevant (come to think of it, almost all the optional Industrial age techs are sub-par); do not waste your time researching or even trading for Amphibious Warfare or Advanced Flight.

Recap: Your goal to finish off the Industrial Age is Motorized Transportation, but this is difficult to beeline for since it has almost every other required tech as a prerequisite. Just get it as fast as you can.


Please see the next post for the conclusion...

[Dominae]

What If...

What if you lose the race for the Theory of Evolution? There's no need to quit, you can still win! Against the AI you'll just have to figure out which techs you're behind, and work doubly hard diplomatically to reach tech parity. This is nothing new, as it resembles the tech race in the Ancient Age. If you think you've got a good shot at Hoover Dam, definitely go for it (it's too perfect a Wonder for the AI), otherwise stick to the upper branch and start kicking some butt with Transports loaded with Infantry, Artillery and Workers, guarded by Destroyers and what-not.

If you lose the ToE in an MP game...well, I've never been in that situation, so no comment. I would probably form a coalition against the one who did get it...he or she still only has Infantry and Artillery to fight with until Tanks!

Closing Thoughts

The Industrial Age is an exciting age, even though there's more or less a best way to tackle it. Against the AI, it truly feels like you're playing a different game: while you're optimizing your nation with Railroads and Factories and building up zounds of Infantry and Artillery, the AI is using Draft to get Riflemen and is entering Communism. Above all, the AI is not putting nearly as much emphasis on the Theory of Evolution as you are. Truly, if there's a time to cheese out the AI and pull ahead, it's in the Industrial Age. Against human opponents...beware!

Final recap: Here's my suggested tech queue for the Industrial age (optional techs obtained via trades):

Steam Power
Electricity
Industrialization
Replaceable Parts
Medicine
Scentific Method
*Atomic Theory
*Electronics
Radio
The Corporation
Refining
Steel
Combustion
Mass Production
Motorized Transportation


All comments welcome; thanks for reading!


Dominae

[GodKing]

Excelent thread. I read all of it, and find nothing significant I personally disagree with. One minor point is that everything should be taken per the situation at hand. Sometimes (abet it has never happened to me so I am guessing) it might make sence to go after... say, communism instead of industrialization.

[vmxa1]

Fine job, I do not have any big disagreement.
I would point out two things:
1- You need PTW to have stock exchamge and docks
2- Total War changes things quite a bit and really changes them if you failed to get ToE (yes that is what happened to me in AU208).

[Konquest02]

When building the Theory of Evolution, try to time your research with the completion of the wonder.

Let's say that you have a nice prebuild for ToE. When you discover Scientific Method, you switch to ToE and you notice it needs 6 turns to completion. Then, you might try to research Steel or Refining in 6 turns. Since science comes before production in the turn, your turn goes like this:

1- You discover Steel.
2- You select Atomic Theory as your next tech (or whichever tech you need)
3- ToE is built.
4- You get Atomic Theory for free and another one which you select, most probably Electronics.
5- You are very happy as you lost no beakers because of ToE.

Great discussion of this often overlooked part of the game Dom... But, workers do not complete tasks faster with Electricity but with Replacable Parts. With Electricity, your workers get the ability to irrigate without any source of fresh water around. It is still a nice tech to research, as it leads to ToE, but it does not directly improve your worker speed...

--Kon--

[Dominae]

Re: Electricity, thanks Kon, my mistake. Just goes to show how often I research Replaceable Parts after Electricity (answer: all the time). Still, my point about researching Electricity before Industrialization basically goes away. It's therefore even more of a judgement call between Electricity and Industrialization.

Concerning the ToE prebuild, the best way to do it is to get a prebuild big enough that will complete the ToE just when you finish Scientific Method. You need to start planning for the ToE the second you enter the Industrial Age. Delaying your research not to lose Beakers works too, but is definitely not preferable, as you're slowing your research rate.


Dominae

[Harovan]

It's actually the best to research Atomic Theory, even though it's an awfully expensive tech (200). If you time it, that you complete it the same turn like the ToE, you can get Electronics (180) and Radio (200) for free. That's probably the best deal.

[Konquest02]

It may be, but proceeding this way, you have to delay ToE, which might allow an AI to get it before you... But I agree that it's a great deal...

[Dominae]

Why is Electronics (180) and Radio (200) a better deal than Electronics and Atomic Theory (200)?

My point is simply that, ideally, you want to finish the ToE the turn you discover Scientific Method. This provides the greatest advantage, both in terms of time and research costs.


Dominae

[Nor Me]

If I'm worried about getting the ToE and am sure I won't get Electricity first, I'll generally go for Industrialisation first.

The reasoning behind that is that the production to get Universal Sufferage is generally quicker to get than the techs for Theory of Evolution and the time the AI is slowed in getting ToE by denying it a prebuild is generally more than the time taken to research Industrialisation. These may seem contradictory but human production is much better than the AI's even on Emperor because it's better planned whereas research rarely is when the ToE is in danger.

The Electricity/Industrialisation question is not as easy to decide as you've painted it. I normally go for Electricity first but in order to trade it or to get a lead on replaceable parts.

Getting Atomic Theory and Electronics from the ToE is standard but it's not the best path if you want to slow down tech. The AI tends to avoid Atomic theory because it's so expensive so keeping it that way will slow it down. That's generally when you want to fight with infantry and artillery for as long as possible or want to time the gap between tanks and MI to occur later for some reason. I haven't done it that many times but it always wise to be aware of the options.

As for the hypothetical losing the ToE in MP, you wouldn't need to fight the player who had it, if everyone discriminated against them in tech trades, they'd lose their advantage fast. In any case, they would be tempted to give the lead away for allies if they were ganged up against. You might then be organising the wrong side (i.e. the one that gets tanks later.).

The main reason to avoid sanitation is that it helps the AI too much. Otherwise I'd certainly research it early. I don't find that 3-spacing renders hospitals irrelevant at all.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Re: Why Sir Ralph says Radio is better to get with the ToE than Atomic Theory.

Does the AI perhaps regard the higher techs in the same Age (or perhaps just Radio) as having a higher base worth than lower ones that cost the same in beakers? This would mean you get a lot (in trade worth) more from your free tech, and sooner.

Or maybe this is just going by the assumption that you still have 6 or so turns to complete ToE when you get SciMethod. Then progressing further along that tree (with Atomic Theory) via research would enable you to use the ToE to finish that whole branch in a flash.

[Nor Me]

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
Or maybe this is just going by the assumption that you still have 6 or so turns to complete ToE when you get SciMethod. Then progressing further along that tree (with Atomic Theory) via research would enable you to use the ToE to finish that whole branch in a flash.

It should be just as easy to use the palace to get 4 or 8.

If Atomic Theory is in 6 turns, then it would be better to wait until later to research radio because it could be reduced to 5 or 4 turns by that time and they (Atomic Theory and Radio) are the most expensive techs in the era. Of course that's assuming that the aim is to research out of the industrial age as fast as possible. I'm not sure under what other aims Sir Ralph's idea could be justified.

[Nakar Gabab]

I would disagree with you on one point, Dom. I find that the AI is in LOVE with Nationalism, and as a result will pretty much always go for that first. So you're right that you shouldn't research it (really, I never even bother), HOWEVER...

...all the early techs are incredibly well-valued by the AI. They will pay and charge through the NOSE for Steam Power and Medicine. The thing is, I usually don't like to give them Steam Power (for obvious reasons). So that sort of ruins it as trade-bait. Yet Medicine is worth almost as much or more in trade, and it gives the AI a big fat... NOTHING!

Also, Medicine is on the TOE track anyway. So if I had to modify your list in any way, I'd get Medicine before the Electricity/Replacable Parts part. If you're not in a game with too many Scientific civs, or just not too far behind, Medicine can be whored out in such a way as to nigh-bankrupt the AI at a critical early Industrial period, giving you lots of GPT and perhaps extra techs to fill in whatever Medieval stuff you didn't get (Free Artistry anyone?). That GPT can buffer you as you race for TOE.

Trading away Medicine but sitting on Steam Power as long as possible also gives you the advantage of giving the AI a hand in going for Sanitation. Meaning you can trade for it earlier and reap the benefits of Hospitals while researching far more important techs. And if you're behind and can't even get SP first, try nailing Medicine - you may just get Steam Power and/or Nationalism and be back in the game.

It may not look important, but it can be. Oh, it can be...

[Theseus]

Excellent, excellent post. It's only been recently that I've gotten into the later stages of the game as well.

I think, Dominae, you underplay two things:

1) Gaining a branch lead in research is extra powerful in the Industrial Age. Done well, you can "break the back" of the leading AI civs research / upgrade efforts (culminating in a game-winning path through the 'Industrial Corridor', and you can also achieve abso-frigging-lutely ridiculous Machiavellian metagame manipulation through gifting the lesser-developed AI civs.

2) Production power. Dear sweet god, this is when the payoff comes, especially if playing a commercial civ. When I went back to play Mini-Tourney II as Germany, I very much oriented my strategy around achieving max production power upon researching MotorTrans (i.e., as many 2 turn Panzers as possible)... holy Rommel, if I knew then what I know now!!

Well done, a Must Read.

[Dominae]

Lots of good comments, thanks everyone!

Originally posted by Nor Me
If I'm worried about getting the ToE and am sure I won't get Electricity first, I'll generally go for Industrialisation first.

The ability to secure the ToE is a more of a production question than a research question when facing the AI. Therefore Industrialization first makes sense. However, if you're behind in tech, I believe you should time your ToE back in the Medieval Age and rush for Scientific Method in techs. Factories are good, but they will not beat a prebuild that has been simmering for a 30+ turns.

The Electricity/Industrialisation question is not as easy to decide as you've painted it. I normally go for Electricity first but in order to trade it or to get a lead on replaceable parts.

I agree with you here too, and I thought I mentioned this in my first post. The power of Factories is hard to deny, but sometimes you just need to rush to Infantry or the ToE fast. Of any decision in the Industrial Age, I think this one is the most game-dependent.

Getting Atomic Theory and Electronics from the ToE is standard but it's not the best path if you want to slow down tech. The AI tends to avoid Atomic theory because it's so expensive so keeping it that way will slow it down.

A very good point, IMO (geez, we agree on everything here!). The question is therefore: can you do more damage with Infantry/Artillery over the long run haul than Tanks later on? Personally, I think Infantry/Artillery are more important than Tanks, and so the goal of slowing down research speed (by not researching Atomic Theory, for instance) is definitely a sound one.

As for the hypothetical losing the ToE in MP, you wouldn't need to fight the player who had it, if everyone discriminated against them in tech trades, they'd lose their advantage fast. In any case, they would be tempted to give the lead away for allies if they were ganged up against. You might then be organising the wrong side (i.e. the one that gets tanks later.).

Yes, but assuming you're production capacities are more or less equivalent, you'll do better for yourself by amassing a bunch of Artillery among your allies than waiting for Tanks later on, since Tanks do no really punch through human-created Infantry defenses as well as one would like.

I don't find that 3-spacing renders hospitals irrelevant at all.

The question is really what you would rather research before Hospitals. I think that's pretty much everything before Steel/Refining. Sure, you can get a nice bonus out of those big cities, but is it really worth those turns lost in a tight tech race?


Dominae

[Dominae]

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
Does the AI perhaps regard the higher techs in the same Age (or perhaps just Radio) as having a higher base worth than lower ones that cost the same in beakers? This would mean you get a lot (in trade worth) more from your free tech, and sooner.

A while ago, alexman did an analysis of which techs the AI prefers. It's metric is based not only on cost, but on what units, improvements and abilities a tech provides (pretty obvious, right?). If the AI avoids Atomic Theory, it's not only because of its high cost but because of other factors as well, most probably that it does not do anything in and of itself.


Dominae

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Nakar Gabab
Also, Medicine is on the TOE track anyway. So if I had to modify your list in any way, I'd get Medicine before the Electricity/Replacable Parts part. If you're not in a game with too many Scientific civs, or just not too far behind, Medicine can be whored out in such a way as to nigh-bankrupt the AI at a critical early Industrial period, giving you lots of GPT and perhaps extra techs to fill in whatever Medieval stuff you didn't get (Free Artistry anyone?).

Why not just research the good techs (like Industrialization and Electricity) which help your empire directly, and use these as trade bait with the AI? The AI pays handsomly for these as well (at least as well as for Medicine), so there's not fear of falling behind. The whole idea behind not researching Medicine first even thought it's so important is that the AI is picks it up immediately after Nationalism. Meanwhile, you can actually do something useful with Railroads and Factories.


Dominae

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Theseus
I think, Dominae, you underplay two things:

1) Gaining a branch lead in research is extra powerful in the Industrial Age.

I agree with you here. The reason ToE is so powerful, IMO, is that you get a sound branch lead over the lower branch (Atomic Theory, Electronics, Radio), which you will serve you very well throughout the Industrial Age. Grabbing Radio while the AIs are on Steel is guaranteed investment in your future well-being.

2) Production power. Dear sweet god, this is when the payoff comes, especially if playing a commercial civ.

I agree with you here, too! My point about production was simply this: make sure you're not wasting too many Shields on projects. If you're producing a Infantry every two turns in a city that outputs 60 Shields per turn, you're losing 15 Shields per turn there! It's great to get your production as high as possible, but you also have to consider what you're going to do with all that power. If building a Coal Plant ends up wasting more Shields than anything, why build it?

Eventually, of course, to produce those expensive Tanks, you'll want your main cities to produce at least 50 Shields per turn, which typically involves a Factory-booster of some sort (Coal Plant, etc.). But blindly getting your production as high as possible very early in the Industrial Age may not be the most efficient path.

Well done, a Must Read.

Thanks!


Dominae

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Dominae


Why not just research the good techs (like Industrialization and Electricity) which help your empire directly, and use these as trade bait with the AI?

Dominae

Maybe I am alone on this, but I pretty much never trade any industrial age tech to the AI. They are all just to useful and I do not want to help them get to them.
Even if they are going to get them very soon anyway.
I will try to find something to trade when I get close to the ToE being built. I want to fill in those older techs I skip, Espionage, Demo, Printing press and the like.
I want to have as many techs as I can so the freebies are one that I can use and are expensive to build.
Beelining to Scientic and Elec for the wonders is a given.
If I am in a close tech race (Emp/Deity or some special games), otherwise I usually have time to grab Fac and Hospitals first. This lets me get a nice jump on my production and some of the other wonders I want.
I am not going to be able to prebuild or rush them all.
I will hopefully be ready for ToE and Hoover. The rest I will take my chances on.

[epics]

Dominae: Try not to have begun any research projets when you finish the Theory of Evolution. Once you secure this Wonder, the best techs to grab for free are Atomic Theory and Electronics.

How can I be sure that ToE give me those two techs? Is there a way to "show" what techs I want from the ToE?

[Nakar Gabab]

Originally posted by Dominae
Why not just research the good techs (like Industrialization and Electricity) which help your empire directly, and use these as trade bait with the AI? The AI pays handsomly for these as well (at least as well as for Medicine), so there's not fear of falling behind. The whole idea behind not researching Medicine first even thought it's so important is that the AI is picks it up immediately after Nationalism. Meanwhile, you can actually do something useful with Railroads and Factories.

Because, as VX notes, I don't usually give them ANY Industrial techs if I can help it. However, if I were going to sell 'em any one tech, it would either be Medicine or Electricity - and since Medicine does not put the AI closer to Replacable Parts and the ever-annoying Infantry, it's the most viable trade-bait.

I also find that the AI likes to shoot for Communism before it goes after Medicine. I could be wrong here, but that seems to be the way they go. You just tend not to notice if you skipped Nationalism because you can't see it available for trade. Communism ain't a bad tech to trade for either - the reduced war weariness of police stations is so-so, but the reduced corruption can help huge empires a LOT. However, it's not nearly as effective as Factories and Railroads, and not worth the research.

Soooooooooooooo, what can we do INSTEAD of research Nationalism and Communism early on? What tech could possibly give us a leg up on those optional but not worth researching techs, without giving the AI a major advantage, and put us a step closer to TOE at the same time? What tech indeed.

It does all depend. If the AI is crippled or behind, you will have to research Medicine yourself to get to TOE first. If the AI is quick, trading for Medicine means you are perilously close to losing the race to Scientific Method and, unless you are clever or lucky, the TOE. I still maintain that Medicine is there for a reason, and I believe that reason can be cleverly exploited if you take advantage of the fact that the AI will bleed cash for a tech that does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the Industrial and Modern Ages. In fact, if you rush or get TOE, you can basically sell the AI Medicine-Scientific Method-Atomic Theory, all COMPLETELY WORTHLESS techs (provided you built or will be able to build TOE first!), for techs that give you access to Stock Exchanges, Oil, MPPs, Police Stations, Spying, and potentially more. I like to think of this branch as "something for nothing." If you get the TOE *and* Hoover's, that's basically EXACTLY what it is from an economic standpoint. Four to six turns of research for no direct AI empowerment, tons of GPT, and techs that do something? Sign me up!

[Dominae]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Maybe I am alone on this, but I pretty much never trade any industrial age tech to the AI. They are all just to useful and I do not want to help them get to them.

Even though the techs in the Industrial Age are powerful, the insane advantage you get from being a tech broker is still present. The two techs I might be reticent to trade away too quickly are Steam Power and Replaceable Parts, but even then I'll trade them if the price is right.


Dominae

[Dominae]

Originally posted by epics
How can I be sure that ToE give me those two techs? Is there a way to "show" what techs I want from the ToE?

Have you ever built the ToE? The game lets you choose which techs you want, from the list of techs available for you to research. Since Atomic Theory and Electronics are directly after Scientific Method and have no other prerequisites, those are the standard two techs to pick.


Dominae

[Theseus]

Originally posted by Dominae
Even though the techs in the Industrial Age are powerful, the insane advantage you get from being a tech broker is still present. The two techs I might be reticent to trade away too quickly are Steam Power and Replaceable Parts, but even then I'll trade them if the price is right.
Dominae

I originally played like vxma and Nakar... NO WAY would I trade dangerous techs to the AI civs.

Now, I'll trade anything and everything, and additionally gift techs where appropriate (and yes, it still feels WEIRD to gift Rep Parts and Motor Trans!). I have since learned that the tech broker's benefit of simultaneously draining the AI civs' gold / research AND enriching my own gold / luxury coffers gives me much greater control of the metagame.

For instance, if there's a KAI on a distant continent that I can't "break" through trade, I will wait for all my trades with that civ to run out, declare war honorably, and use my tech lead to procure alliances with all the neigboring civs (this possibly in conjunction with a luxury capture naval expedition).

Fun and Machiavellian Games with AI Civs.

[Solomwi]

One small place I disagree, Dom, though I seem to be a minority of one on this. Assuming I have a tech lead (which is most games I've played), and after the naturally-first Steam Power, I jump for Industrialization to get my factories going, then it's a sort-of beeline for ToE. Usually, by the Industrial Age, I'm researching each tech at 4 turns with decent cash flow. Also, I do use looser city spacing from the start, but play exclusively on huge maps. These mean three things: my ToE prebuild needs 4 extra turns, getting hospitals is as important for production as getting factories and the AI is pounding away a little slower at Nationalism and/or Steam Power at about the same time. Therefore, my typical IE research path goes SP>Ind>Med>San>Ele>SciMet. And you're right, there is nothing more beautiful than pulling up the advisor when you discover SciMet, going to the city screen, switching to ToE and seeing one turn left.

Here's the part where I disagree, but not vehemently. I grab Atomic Theory, because it's so dang expensive, and Replaceable Parts, then research Electronics, because the AI is lagging enough that I've assured myself of the Hoover Dam anyway, and that's 4 or 5 more turns that I have full speed workers. Normally, that would just be nice, but I'm getting my rail network up, making it crucial, especially if I'm at war. It also gives me a jump on getting units upgraded, locating rubber and determining if I need to go to war to secure or deny some. It just seems to me each new resource has the potential to completely change the game, more than anything else, which leads me to jump for a new resource tech above most all others. Of course, this all may be a function of me being too much of a wuss to play the higher levels, too .

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Theseus

For instance, if there's a KAI on a distant continent that I can't "break" through trade, I will wait for all my trades with that civ to run out, declare war honorably, and use my tech lead to procure alliances with all the neigboring civs (this possibly in conjunction with a luxury capture naval expedition).

I am aware of the possiblity and the benefits of those types of trades and if the conditions are correct I will trade some techs, usually just before the ToE is finished.
Never traded Rep Parts, Steam or Motorized though.

Anyway you can usually make a deal with the the other civs to gang up on the killer at no great cost. Often I will give them lux and they will jump on it.
The problem is that those civs are probably not going to have much of an impact on the killer. I may give them cash to build more units as well. They are just as likely to help the killer by getting slaughtered. Yhis give the killer more promotions and they get to annex cities.
I join up with them if they are far away or not reachable by me. If they are between the killer and me I may prefer to let them join the killer so I can sluaghter them and get the cities. It depends, if they have RR I do not want the killer to be able to use them, so I do not want them to ally with the killer. So many considerations.

[Theseus]

Yep, nothing worse than seeing my Machiavellian plans burned to ashes, and the KAI just getting bigger and badder.

[Catt]

Nice guide to a less-often discussed age.

With a solid tech lead (2 - 3 techs), I'll go SP, Elec, RP, Industrialization, Medicine, Scientific Method.

With a small lead / parity, I'll tend to skip Industrialization -- still nab RP early but then beeline for ToE.

When behind, it's a somewhat nervous trip straight to ToE, perhaps with a stop off at RP if pre-builds allow.

In all but the most unusual circumstances though, it is SP first and bypass entirely Nationalism.

I sense that I tend to underprioritize Industrialization compared to others. If I need to furiously build units, I am unlikely to slip too many factory builds into the queue; and if I'm not at war, I generally don't have a lot of pressing improvements to build (I tend to have universities up and running in most cities that deserve one before I get to Industrialization). More precisely: (1) I'll get factories up as soon as convenient; (2) if I'm at war, I want RP as soon as possible; (3) if I'm at war and it's at all dicey, I am unlikely to build too many factories instead of units, so I'll delay factories for RP and then ToE if the race is close; (4) if I'm not at war, I'll want factories primarily for assistance with hospitals and then stock exchanges -- so I can delay it. I like to get Universal Suffrage just to have it, but I don't find it a terribly helpful wonder -- the research that Bamspeedy and DaveMcW recently did indicates that US only makes one WW citizen per city content -- nothing more than one tick on the luxury slider.

I have experimented a bit with prioritizing Sanitation early -- too soon to tell how valuable it is, but the productivity/ income boost of RRs and hospitals is impressive. With an AI that doesn't value ToE nearly enough, stopping off at hospitals early seems to offer real value in certain situations.

Catt

[Cruddy]

Great thread Dominae!

All I would add is that I generally have games undecided in the IA at the higer difficulty levels on larger maps.

Oh yes, and if playing a scientific Civ I will often trade to get the last necessary tech (Radio or Flight?) so that I can have another free tech when entering Modern Age.

I can't really call this a tip. If I am forced to do this it's a sign I'm not doing very well, because tanks V infantry have better chances than MA V Mech Inf.

[GarP2]

quote:
Originally posted by epics
How can I be sure that ToE give me those two techs? Is there a way to "show" what techs I want from the ToE?

Quote from Dominae:
Have you ever built the ToE? The game lets you choose which techs you want, from the list of techs available for you to research. Since Atomic Theory and Electronics are directly after Scientific Method and have no other prerequisites, those are the standard two techs to pick.

(I still havent figured out how to quote)
I too was under the impresson that the computer picked the two techs that you got upon completing ToE. Was that true earlier but changed in a patch or in PTW? Because when it happened to me, I just quit trying for ToE because I skip so many previous techs. I played the original unpatched Civ3 til I bought and loaded PTW.

Thanks, that makes a big difference.
GarP2