Plans for Military Buildup: "Operation Steel Storm"

[zeit]

Now, although this was obviously mentioned at the Spartan Thoughts threads, i guess it's purpose was to be used as: When how and with what- to do war, and that a different thread will be dedicated to making concrete plans of military buildup, which is becoming a necessity, with or without war on Vox or anyone else at this time. Our GA is getting near, and we all agree that we would use it to make a record in the speed of building an army!

But we need plans, and we need them quickly. I'm not a tactician nor an economist, but i do realize the importance of making plans in advance, and not rushing with hot issues after waiting for the last moment to make decisions.

Theusus thought about making "purchase requests" from the economists, but i think it's best we try to reach a holistic plan that would take into account oiur entire situation- the economical, the time limits and of course the military needs and how the tactical school sees them. Alot of ideas have flown around- with WC, without them, regulars to vets ratio, upgrading against building and so forth. I think what we should do is work on this Steel Storm program: the exact composition of troops- which city builds which units, how much money we need to hoard for upgrades and other important issues which i'm sure you all know better than me.

After this plan is made, it should be tested in-game, and than perhaps revised to change it if necessary. I see this as our main project, besides diplomatic preparations for war with Vox- if we want one. So the sooner we start on this, the better.

Oh, and just my two cents: don't forget galleys, i think we'll need at least two or three...

[Arrian]

Do we realistically believe we can hit Vox before they get pikemen for defense? I doubt it. Therefore, I think we will need Knights.

There are two main options that I see, then:

1) that our GA-boosted research be directed straight at Invention. Get Leo's, upgrade WC's to Knights, Kill.

2) IF we think we can take Vox without a large WC -> Knight upgrade, then perhaps going for Leos is a waste. Perhaps our GA should be used to shoot for Theology instead, for the Sistine (with us being religious and all) and Education for universities. Granted, the Sistine isn't nearly as important in this game as I'm used to it being, since it's Chieftain and happiness concerns are a joke, but nabbing the Sistine would essentially mean such concerns are nonexistent.

So, do we think we can take down Vox with a hand behind our back (use GA primarily for building, with only partial devotion to war prep), or do we favor the "whole hog" approach of going for Leos and a WC -> Knight upgrade of perhaps 20-25 units?

-Arrian

[zeit]

If we wait for Leo's, we might take too long, won't we?

I mean, Vox will only get stronger, while we we use our GA to boost ourselves, waiting some time afterwards might be just the time for them to raise defenses.
We can use Med. Inf. instead of knights, while we do our best to deny Vox of Feudalism for as long as possible. If we do this in time, i think we could take Vox with relatively small force, but if we wait around, we might miss our chance and have to deal with a stronger and better prepared enemy...

[Aeson]

It might be best to hit relatively early just to prolong Vox's life. The isthmus is set up perfectly as a kill zone for Immortals. We just set up camp on that hill and kill everything that wanders by. Vox's territory is going to be so much more productive for us if we get a Leader.

Of course, we need a navy to do this right. Can't have Vox dropping units off from the coast. 3 Galleys on each coast placed right can mean Vox would have to attack with their Galleys just to try to get around us. 6 Galleys is a good number to shoot for in our GA.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by zeit
I mean, Vox will only get stronger,

I wouldn't bet on that. With the way they're wasting workers on colonies and settlers on cities that need to be disbanded (and we all know how much population is precious to desert-dwelling Vox. Every wasted pop point sets them back by several turns), and don't seem to be improving any tiles south of the isthmus or setting up new cities (except for their short-lived beachhead city on Bob), I don't think they'll be going anywhere far in the near to middle future.
I don't like to underestimate my enemies, but let's face it - Vox have been making some very bad and costly decisions lately.

[Aeson]

Do we realistically believe we can hit Vox before they get pikemen for defense? I doubt it. Therefore, I think we will need Knights.

We can cut off their Iron rather easily before then if we want to. We could take up to the bottleneck safely and easily within 15 turns. Less if we want to dedicate ourselves to it. Originally I played out a situation where I think we'd be safe hitting them by 710BC (cutting off their Iron and taking Dissidentville that turn). That's before even we could research Feudalism.

We could have 4 WC's and 2 Horsemen (minus what we lose taking Dissidentville, probably 1 Spear to kill), and 5 Swordsmen at the Iron crossroad before they could get Immortals down to it. Grog would 'cut off' the Iron (read: stand on the crossroads) the first turn of course.

[zeit]

Vox keeps on stalling- Beta wrote (on his note confirming the tech exchange which i didn't log) Jon will get back to me shortly- but that remains to be seen, meanwhile, our clock is ticking...

Do we want a two phased warfare? perhaps so. Taking the Voxian Iron is just too tempting and would bring Vox's dangerous potential to almost zero.

Besides, we should prepare the military no matter when we want to use it- we better have the capability. I don't think this team would be tempted to follow the: "Since we have an army, let's use it" war-making doctrine.

So, if we're talking about an early 15-turn strike, what is the size of forces we would need, what about the core's defense? and on what timescale?

I thought Typhoon could start working on a galley after the temple- we don't want to wait for harbors, right?



Now, I think some more economists and tacticians should comment here. C'mon people, we're planning for war here!

[DeepO]

I wouldn't be surprised if Vox has quite a number of immortals already, and more warriors standing by. If they would be planning an 'invasion' of Bob while defending their lands, we would meet more defenders then we expect. Plus, because we are playing unpredictable humans, my feeling would be to take another 5 units over any reserve already planned, just in case. All we know, Vox will be cash rushing units in Dissidentville...

DeepO

[Aeson]

Put yourself in Vox's shoes. 10 units blitz their way up to the chokepoint, cutting off your Iron. What do they do with their Immortals?

Our GA starts with the Pyramids (or WC victory if we miss it), at which point we can produce a Pike, Sword, or Horse every turn in 2 cities (would want to build a Barracks in Tempest first, 2 turns). EotS can produce a Spear or WC a turn, Tornado and Bolderberg are at 10 shields per turn, shortly to 15. We don't need a whole lot of units to keep our territory safe as we have several turns warning on each coast (especially once we get to the chokepoint), and the ability to build up and position a force in the time we have warning.

Worst case, Vox clears their cities of Immortals, has 2-3 Galleys (I think they only have one, given how long it took them to vacate BOB) and sends them to hit us. If they do that, we take their territory and fight a holding war in our own in the interim. By the time their Galleys can get to us, we can match their Immortals with Swords, Spears, and Horses that we produce in the time they spend travelling to us.

Also, with the road network set up, our fast movers up North can beat Vox's Galleys to any spot in our empire.

[zeit]

That's why we better use a quick assault of the Iron- If we wait they'll just have more and mroe Immortals- but as soon as we strike their Iron we leave them with nothing besides spearmen for defense and archers for offense- and no upgrading capabilities- meaning plenty of useless warriors (if they stocked any).

[DeepO]

True... if we wait until our GA starts, we should be able to defend our territory purely on 'future forces'. I'm a bit hesitant to do that, though, e.g. RP could decide to check how long it takes for their galleys to reach our coast.

Don't get me wrong, Vox should be an easy target for us, even if other teams decide to lend them a hand (getting iron in a deal would certainly be an option, I think more teams would be willing to practically give it to them if it means immortals against GS). But I'm getting kind of cautious when it comes to human-human war.

I'm not sold on two parts of your plan, though: 1) moving Grog onto the road before declaring war (as he is kind of in Vox's territory by the border deal) and 2) how we should be able to diplomatically start a war honorably with a team we currently have a close connection with. I definately think we need to discuss this further (in another thread)

DeepO

[Aeson]

Well, a WC/Horseman from our northernmost city site, on roads, could make it to the Iron crossroads the same turn as well, assuming we have one left after Dissidentville falls. I would guess we'd have 3 left with full movement (with 1 or 2 injured, 1 lost in the attack) if we do send 6 WC/Horsemen up there.

So really, Grog isn't important unless things go terribly wrong. They would have up to 2 spears in Dissidentville (+ anything we see move down there).

Vox has given us a reason that will play well with most the other civs... they plan to resettle BOB. Also, GoW and ND might be interested in getting Vox's capitol away from their far flung cities to avoid potential culture flipping problems.

[DeepO]

I definately prefer using a WC instead of Grog, just for diplomatic sake.

As to Vox being a problem for Bob: that can be one of the subreasons, but won't be enough to convince others we play honorably... in theory, we have a deal going, which we can't simply stop. Breaking that won't be good, no matter what excuse we invent.
DeepO

[Aeson]

I thought we were negotiating to end the deal. It was never meant to be eternal right? If we sign a gpt deal with them, then you're right... but luckily they don't seem to like the idea.

[Aeson]

Might be best to wait until they do try and settle BOB again. Gives us time to build up, and ties up their Immortals elsewhere.

Would it be alright to ask Vox what their timeframe for settling BOB again would be?