GS & GoW: new and exciting possibilities

Shiber · March 22, 2003, 05:36

During the chat, the representatives of GoW have explained that they will be very interested in these deals:

1. Iron: GoW doesn't have iron at the moment. There's an iron tile that's too near ND territory, and they remember what happened the last time someone settled too close to ND. They would be very interested in an iron supply from GS that would last only a few turns, so that they could upgrade their units. They are building a harbor, and if we build a harbor as well, and one of us discovers a sea route to the other civ's harbor, then they'll be willing to pay us money for a few turns' supply of iron.
The only way they can discover a sea route to us would be by sending a galley to our shores - but then we would lose much of our secrecy regarding our lands and such. If we're going to strike such a deal anyway, we might as well swap world maps with GoW. We can get some benefit out of this as well, by telling GoW that in addition to forwarding some sort of monetary payment for our iron, they will also be obliged to send their galleys to explore Vox and RP from the sea and then send their new world map, so that in return for our world map, we would get a large up-to-date map of the northern half of Bob, what's visible of the southern half of Bob from the shore and what's visible of Vox's lands from the shore.

2. Intelligence: GoW are very interested in Vox. I suggested that we provide them with intelligence of Vox (e.g. how many and what kinds of Voxian troops we can see, how many of their iron sources have they connected, what do the Voxian lands that we can see look like etc'), and they reacted excitedly. We may be able to get some nice sums of gold in return for details of Vox's doings.

3. Defense: GoW are afraid that Vox might attack them. That is, they are confident that they could handle Vox, but they fear that ND or RP might take advantage of this and open another front, which GoW won't be able to handle. I proposed that GS might be willing to sign a deal in which we would attack Vox in case Vox attacked GoW, in order to distract Vox's attack and allow GoW to concentrate on their other fronts, and they showed a great interest. Perhaps we can sign a gpt for defense deal with GoW, where as long as they continue to pay us a certain sum of gpt, we will guarantee that they will not be bothered by Vox's front. I think we can benefit greatly from this deal - though I would not suggest that we sign anything of this nature before we get Vox's free early medieval tech. Afterwards, however, we can attack Vox with little to no regret, and if we get paid a lot of gold for this, then that's very welcome!

Opinions, comments, suggestions?

Shiber · March 22, 2003, 06:25

PROBLEM !

According to Hot_Enamel, Vox have landed a settler, a spearman and two immortals on Bob.

13:30 GMT+2:00, an urgently-requested private chat with Hot_Enamel:

[13:23] Shiber: what did you want to talk about?
[13:23] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Thanks for last night
[13:23] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Vox
[13:23] Shiber: anything in particular?
[13:23] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Yep
[13:23] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: You said you would help us out if they did anything stupid
[13:24] Shiber: no, we said we might
[13:24] Shiber: there are two possibilities:
[13:24] Shiber: 1. helping you out with money - this shouldn't be a problem, presented to the team. they would surely approve it.
[13:24] Shiber: 2. helping you out by going to war with vox - this is a totally different issue.
[13:24] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: OK -
[13:24] Shiber: we've discussed the possibility where we would sign a treaty obliging us to attack vox in case they attacked you
[13:25] Shiber: i recently posted a description of that possibility to the GS forum. it is pending discussion
[13:25] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: What is the feeling ?
[13:25] Shiber: all i can promise is that i'd do my best to promote such deals
[13:25] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: There may be a problem
[13:25] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: I got the sav file ND a few hours ago
[13:25] Shiber: Hot_Enamel[GoW], i can't tell you yet, since i've posted my summary of the chat about 20 minutes ago and no replies have yet been posted
[13:26] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Vox have landed 2 immortals 1 spearman & a settler have landed on Bob
[13:26] Shiber: EEK
[13:26] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: I am the only member of GoW who knows this
[13:26] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: And am posting possible responses
[13:26] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: They have not created a city yet
[13:26] Shiber: please delay the save as much as possible and GS will discuss this and see what we can do to help
[13:27] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We will obviously do this
[13:27] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Do you have neough influence to tell them to send the settler back ?
[13:27] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Your opinion only
[13:28] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: I understand your teams needs to discus
[13:28] Shiber: we'll see what we can do
[13:28] Shiber: i'm posting to the GS forum as we speak
[13:28] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: If we war with Vox, we will take the war to their homeland
[13:28] Shiber: i'm sure we can send an unpleasant message to Vox, though
[13:29] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: That would be good
[13:29] Shiber: Hot_Enamel[GoW], may I post our chat log to the GS public forum?
[13:30] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Sure - just remember - this is my opinion - not an official GoW response
[13:30] Shiber: can i have a screenshot of the site of Vox's landing and its surroundings?
[13:30] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: GF and the rest of the US members will be up soon I guess.
[13:31] Shiber: particularly, one that shows the distance between the nearest GoW city to the landing zone
[13:31] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: I wont do that - But I will pressure our team to send you it
[13:31] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: I dont think GF & team would have a problem
[13:33] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Thats about it for me - I need to post in our forum as well

This is BAD for us. If GoW and Vox go to war, and ND and/or RP won't open additional fronts for GoW, then GoW will take the war to Vox's homeland (and we don't want them conquering any Vox cities, since we want them to ourselves). If RP and ND take advantage of this and open additional fronts, GoW could lose, and we'd be left with a much more powerful ND and RP to deal with.
However, if we dismay Vox from attacking GoW, telling them that if they do so, we will take serious steps, even go to war with them, then GoW will be forever in our debt, and I'm sure they would grant us a very large sum of money to thank us for saving them.

GoW are holding the save, but they can't hold it for over than 24 hours. If we hold the save as well, we'd have a little more than two days to discuss this - but let's reach a decision as quickly as we can.
This is serious!

FrustratedPoet · March 22, 2003, 06:48

We don't want GoW fighting back and taking any land on our continent.
On the other hand, it would be nice if Vox and GoW fought a long and drawn out attritional war on Bob - thus weakening them both. I can't see that happening, though.

Shiber · March 22, 2003, 07:05

I wouldn't like to see GoW weakened. ND and RP would surely take advantage of this and take a chunk out of GoW's territory.
We GOTTA help GoW somehow. It's in our best interest.

I suggest that we send Vox an unpleasant diplomatic message, informing them that we were not pleased to hear that they invaded territory claimed by our friends GoW, and that we would take serious steps should they go to war with GoW. Additionally, I suggest that we move our WCs to the north, into Vox's field of view. We may also want to connect our iron and upgrade some warriors.

FrustratedPoet · March 22, 2003, 07:22

Are Vox actually in GoW territory? Or are they just in unclaimed land on Bob?

alva · March 22, 2003, 07:40

I don't mind this to be honest.

Now Vox could have their GA while fighting GoW and not us.
-
Could help us getting a foothold on Bob
-

Shiber · March 22, 2003, 07:46

I'm going to ask Hot_Enamel in the chatroom how many tiles are there between Vox's landing site and GoW's nearest city (so that if Vox decides to send its troops immediately and attack GoW, how many turns it would take them to get to GoW's nearest city).

Shiber · March 22, 2003, 08:04

Surprise chat in #private. If you want to participate, log onto the IRC server and send me a message so that I could invite you into the channel.

Shiber · March 22, 2003, 08:33

Present in the chat are:
Hot_Enamel, Zeit, FrustratedPoet, Aeson and myself.
GhengisFarb was here earlier and left angrily; IMHO he was nervous, and left because he felt that GoW was at a disadvantage in this chat.

Aeson · March 22, 2003, 08:41

Either I'm lagging terribly bad in chat, or nothing is going on... I caught a bit of it so far though.

1. I don't think Vox has Iron up north. Why waste a worker building a colony in the least defensible position in your empire?

2. We definitely should talk to RP and ND (if they talk) about how they feel about Vox's landing. GoW's claim that BOB will unite over this sounds rather absurd, why should RP care if Vox gets some of GoW's and/or ND's land?

Shiber · March 22, 2003, 08:47

Definitely. Diplo messages to ND and RP immediately!

alva · March 22, 2003, 08:52

I certainly agree with your 2nd point. They might see it as an opportunity IMO.

Shiber · March 22, 2003, 08:56

Alva is in the chatroom.

Shiber · March 22, 2003, 08:58

Screenshot. Woohoo!

FrustratedPoet · March 22, 2003, 09:04

Interesting unit graphics mods there.

I tried those multi-unit things once, but they got very annoying after a while.

FrustratedPoet · March 22, 2003, 09:06

I thought the Immortals were 4 tiles away from a GoW city? I don't see one...

Also: WTF are Vox doing splitting up their units like that??? I think one of those Immortals will die to a Horseman attack next turn. Odd ... very odd.

alva · March 22, 2003, 09:12

Not even protecting their settler

Aeson · March 22, 2003, 09:13

They can move all 3 units back onto the Settler before GoW can attack.

FrustratedPoet · March 22, 2003, 09:19

I don't think GoW have played their turn yet, Aeson.

I hadn't realised that the Horseman can reach the Settler.

The Horseman should be able to move 2,6 this turn and capture the Settler.

alva · March 22, 2003, 09:19

didn't notice, GOW had already moved...

Shiber · March 22, 2003, 09:22

Log, Part I, times are GMT+2:00.

Session Start: Sat Mar 22 15:12:56 2003
Session Ident: #private
[15:12] * Now talking in #private
[15:12] * Retrieving #private info...
[15:13] * Shiber sets mode: +ips
[15:13] -apolyton.net:@#private- Shiber invited GhengisFarb[GoW} into channel #private.
[15:13] -apolyton.net:@#private- Shiber invited Hot_Enamel[GoW] into channel #private.
[15:13] * Hot_Enamel[GoW] has joined #private
[15:15] * Shiber sets mode: +o Hot_Enamel[GoW]
[15:16] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: GF is having PC problems - He has a ghost log on - He is rebooting
[15:16] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: 1 minute, and he will be on
[15:18] -apolyton.net:@#private- Shiber invited zeit into channel #private.
[15:18] Shiber: Zeit is coming as well.
[15:18] * zeit has joined #private
[15:18] * Shiber sets mode: +o zeit
[15:18] zeit: hi there
[15:18] Shiber: Welcome
[15:18] zeit: i came as soon as i heard the news
[15:18] -: *zeit* check the GS forum for the latest
[15:18] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Back
[15:19] -: *zeit* http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=81398
[15:19] *zeit* okay, thanks.
[15:19] zeit: hi HotE
[15:19] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: GF is rebooting - will be here in a couple of minute
[15:19] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Hi Zeit
[15:19] Shiber: Hot_Enamel[GoW], is there any chance your team could be persuaded into sending GS a screenshot of Vox's landing site and its surroundings?
[15:19] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We have a screenshot ready to send
[15:20] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: But you understand, our concerns about Vox & GS
[15:20] zeit: I can assure you we knew nothing of this
[15:20] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: I believe you
[15:20] zeit: except for what you have told us, of course
[15:21] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Convincing the whole GoW team is the issue
[15:21] zeit: how do you plan to handle their expeditionary force?
[15:21] -: *zeit* Good Q!
[15:21] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: I only just found it 3 hours ago
[15:21] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: GF just found about it 10 minute ago
[15:21] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Many things to discuss b4 we come up with an action plan
[15:22] zeit: I see, weren't you preparing for this?
[15:22] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: It still surprises us :)
[15:22] zeit: as it is for us
[15:22] zeit: :)
[15:23] *FrustratedPoet* is there a GOW chat going on?
[15:23] -apolyton.net:@#private- Shiber invited FrustratedPoet[GS] into channel #private.
[15:23] Shiber: FrustratedPoet is coming also.
[15:24] * FrustratedPoet[GS] has joined #private
[15:24] FrustratedPoet[GS]: hello guys
[15:24] zeit: HotE-how close have Vox landed, to the ND territory?
[15:24] *FrustratedPoet[GS]* thanks :)
[15:24] zeit: hi FP
[15:24] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Guys - Wait a couple for GF
[15:25] zeit: HotE seems to be quite busy, can't blame him though
[15:25] Shiber: Hot_Enamel[GoW], can we have that screenshot now? I want to post it to the GS forum as soon as possible so that we can begin discussing ways of helping you.
[15:25] FrustratedPoet[GS]: hi zeit :)
[15:25] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: GF is on line - I am chatting
[15:25] Shiber: plus, if we confront Vox with accurate information of their new surroundings then I'm sure they'd be intimidated
[15:25] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: He cant get in
[15:25] -apolyton.net:@#private- Shiber invited GhengisFarb into channel #private.
[15:25] Shiber: tell him to try now
[15:26] * zeit sets mode: +o FrustratedPoet[GS]
[15:26] * GhengisFarb has joined #private
[15:26] FrustratedPoet[GS]: hi Ghengis
[15:26] zeit: hi GF
[15:26] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Repeat you requests for GF please
[15:26] * zeit sets mode: +o FrustratedPoet[GS]
[15:27] * zeit sets mode: +o FrustratedPoet[GS]
[15:27] * zeit sets mode: +o GhengisFarb
[15:27] * GhengisFarb is now known as GhengisFarb[GoW]
[15:27] GhengisFarb[GoW]: Hello
[15:27] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: They are typing :)
[15:28] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: They wanted to know how far away the settler is from our city
[15:28] Shiber: Hot_Enamel[GoW], can we have that screenshot now? I want to post it to the GS forum as soon as possible so that we can begin discussing ways of helping you.
[15:28] Shiber: plus, if we confront Vox with accurate information of their new surroundings then I'm sure they'd be intimidated
[15:28] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: I have told the 4 tiles
[15:28] Shiber: yes, how many turns it would take Vox to reach your city if their immortals started marching your way immediately
[15:28] GhengisFarb[GoW]: Give me an email and I will send you the screenshot
[15:28] Shiber: so it'd be 4 turns before they can actually attack?
[15:28] Shiber: GhengisFarb[GoW]: gatheringstorm@softhome.net, please
[15:29] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: They will probably defend the city and bring in more immortals b4 attacking
[15:29] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: They have not settled the city yet
[15:29] FrustratedPoet[GS]: they haven't actually built yet, though, right?
[15:29] FrustratedPoet[GS]: whoops .. cross post. :)
[15:29] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: :)
[15:29] GhengisFarb[GoW]: That's irrelevant. They have landed Immortals on Bob, it was understood that the three Big Bob civs wouldn't land on Little Bob and vice versa. This officially allows ND, Roleplay, and GoW to invade and settle the GS Vox Continent
[15:30] zeit: How do you plan to deal with their landing party?
[15:30] GhengisFarb[GoW]: Wipe it out and then claim all of Vox's land
[15:31] Shiber: This officially allows ND, Roleplay, and GoW to invade and settle the GS Vox Continent = Bull.
[15:31] FrustratedPoet[GS]: you plan to invade Vox then?
[15:31] Shiber: GhengisFarb[GoW], I'm sorry, but I fail to see the logic in that.
[15:31] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Zeit - At a minimum, we will get ND & RP as allies
[15:31] Shiber: Hot_Enamel[GoW]: what if ND and RP decide to backstab you?
[15:31] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: When we war, we will take it to their homeland
[15:31] zeit: Will they go for it, or just wait for you to be weak from war and attack you?
[15:31] Shiber: They can easily shave a chunk off of your territory while you hold back Vox's immortals.
[15:32] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: I think ND / RP / GoW would unite for this
[15:32] GhengisFarb[GoW]: We will not land in GS area but Vox's area is now open to us.
[15:32] FrustratedPoet[GS]: Do you think you can trust them?
[15:32] Shiber: Yesterday you said that the winds of war are blowing on Bob.
[15:32] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: This will unite us 4 sure
[15:32] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: This is probably a good thing :)
[15:32] zeit: what makes you so certain?
[15:32] Shiber: do you seriously think that ND would prefer to attack Vox and get some ultra-corrupt cities rather than attack you while you deal with Vox?
[15:33] GhengisFarb[GoW]: They were blowing amongst the three civs on Bob who have been in a massive arms race, that entire buildup may soon be expended on Vox
[15:33] Shiber: Or on you, if you don't play your cards well.
[15:33] Shiber: don't get me wrong, we're just trying to help
[15:33] GhengisFarb[GoW]: ALL three Bob civs have larger military forces than Vox
[15:33] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: North Bob has room for 2 only
[15:33] Shiber: GS has no interest in seeing GoW get hurt. On the contrary.
[15:34] GhengisFarb[GoW]: I think this discussion isn't going to go anywhere.
[15:34] * GhengisFarb[GoW] has left #private
[15:34] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Shiber - What can GS do
[15:34] zeit: what is it that you want to discuss, actually?
[15:34] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: GF is not happy
[15:34] Shiber: that's okay, GF never seems happy :lol:
[15:35] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: :)
[15:35] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: What can GS do, other than a terse letter
[15:35] zeit: i'm sure we could not have made him, unless we vowed to crush Vox immediately
[15:35] Shiber: anyway, I'll tell you what GS can do to help.
[15:35] Shiber: our options are as follows:
[15:35] *Aeson* Is the GS GoW chat still going?
[15:35] Shiber: 1. Attack Vox if they attack you. They will be forced to withdraw.
[15:35] Shiber: 2. Aid GoW monetarily.
[15:36] Shiber: 3. Try to diplomatically dismay Vox from attacking.
[15:36] -: *aeson* Yes. Prepare to be invited.
[15:36] -apolyton.net:@#private- Shiber invited Aeson into channel #private.
[15:36] Shiber: Aeson is coming.
[15:36] * Aeson has joined #private
[15:36] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: I doubt we will settle for anything other than Vox putting their settler back onto their galley
[15:37] FrustratedPoet[GS]: Shiber: I don't think that GoW are really afraid of Vox, they can crush their explorers pretty easily. A promise from Vox not to attack would do no good at this stage, I think.
[15:37] Shiber: Hot_Enamel[GoW]: so would we.
[15:37] *Aeson* Thanks
[15:37] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: How many Lux ended up on Vox ?
[15:37] Shiber: FrustratedPoet[GS], yesterday I got the impression from Hot_Enamel[GoW] that GoW is afraid that other civs on Bob might take advantage of this, and open an additional front for GoW - one that GoW may not be able to handle.
[15:38] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: NO
[15:38] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Bob is unstable
[15:38] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: 3 unhappy civs
[15:38] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: There is most likely to be a war
[15:38] -: *Hot_Enamel[GoW]* I still haven't received the maps.
[15:38] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: If Vox did this after a war started
[15:38] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We would be very unhappy
[15:38] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Because Vox did this now
[15:38] Shiber: Exactly - and GoW would be at a disadvantage if they had to deal with Voxian immortals as well.
[15:39] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: It will UNITE the 3 bob civs
[15:39] zeit: even if inferior numbers
[15:39] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: It will unite us
[15:39] Shiber: Hot_Enamel[GoW], I strongly doubt it. ND and RP are opportunistic.
[15:39] zeit: why would it, you seriously believe, RP for example would join you?
[15:39] zeit: what do they have to look for on Vox?
[15:39] FrustratedPoet[GS]: why should ND and RP care if there are Voxian Immortals near GoW territory?
[15:39] FrustratedPoet[GS]: I expect they'd be quite pleased that you'll use up military resources fighting Vox
[15:40] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: ND & GoW are chasing the same territory
[15:40] FrustratedPoet[GS]: 'k
[15:40] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Just where voc landed
[15:40] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: RP ???
[15:40] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Maybe not military
[15:41] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: But we will unite - trust me on this one
[15:41] Shiber: Hot_Enamel[GoW], if you're so sure that Bob would unite, then you don't need GS's help at all.
[15:41] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: You heard GF & me - we will take the war to their homeland
[15:42] * Shiber sets mode: +o Aeson
[15:42] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: I understood that you would rather not see GoW on your continent
[15:42] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Just like we would prefer no Vox & GS
[15:42] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We might find Iron in Vox ?
[15:43] Shiber: Hot_Enamel[GoW], we won't mind seeing GoW troops on our continent, as long as they stay out of our territory.
[15:43] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Thats good to know
[15:43] Shiber: as for iron, we'd grab Vox's iron it before you can.
[15:43] Shiber: so iron certainly isn't a motivation for you
[15:43] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: you see the delemar
[15:44] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We dont want to carry the war to your continent
[15:44] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Too much trouble on the horizon
[15:44] zeit: of course, but you have no real reason to invade Vox.
[15:44] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: GoW vs GS ... No Thanksyou
[15:44] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We will fight to ensure they dont do that again
[15:44] zeit: i'm sure you won't do that as well
[15:45] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: No we wont
[15:45] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: But if iron is close by .... dont snatch it OK
[15:45] zeit: close by to whom?
[15:45] *FrustratedPoet[GS]* did GF sent that screenshot before he ran away from the chat?
[15:45] zeit: you can see our problem- a weak Vox is ours for the taking.
[15:46] zeit: Their cities won't be as corrupt to us
[15:46] FrustratedPoet[GS]: HotE - if Vox are going to be doomed then why shouldn't we declare war on them ourselves and take all we can of their territory? - including their iron?
[15:46] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: This is a big barrel of problems for everyone
[15:46] FrustratedPoet[GS]: if it's going to be a race to see who can kill Vox first then we'll probably win.
[15:46] zeit: why would we want you to take them, when we can do so as well- and far more easily (need no galleys)
[15:47] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We dont care who kills them
[15:47] zeit: that's encouraging :)
[15:47] -: *FrustratedPoet[GS]* afraid not
[15:47] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Get their settler off our Bob, and there will be no war
[15:47] -: *FrustratedPoet[GS]* i'll try to put pressure on Hot_Enamel[GoW] to send the shots
[15:47] * Aeson has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer )
[15:47] FrustratedPoet[GS]: gtg
[15:48] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: I dont think GF has read my notes from last nights chat
[15:48] *FrustratedPoet[GS]* good idea - we need that screenie
[15:48] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: He is still thinking GS & Vox = aliance
[15:48] *zeit* a war against Vox, in the near future, would probably carry no serious Rep. hit... ;)
[15:48] * FrustratedPoet[GS] has left #private
[15:48] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: He will calm down
[15:49] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We will be spending this time in contacting RP & ND
[15:49] zeit: we will contact Vox, of course
[15:49] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: And most likely have a joint response
[15:49] Shiber: Hot_Enamel[GoW], GF didn't send the screenshot. Would you mind sending it now?
[15:49] Shiber: i want to post the shots on the public forum
[15:49] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: He wont send it - I have asked
[15:50] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: He still thinks GS & Vox = aliance
[15:50] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: HE will calm down
[15:50] Shiber: but surely, you must think otherwise, after yesterday's chat
[15:50] zeit: well, why did he ask for an address than?
[15:50] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: I do
[15:50] zeit: then
[15:50] Shiber: wouldn't you send it?
[15:50] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Not unless I want to get banned from the team
[15:50] *Aeson* can I get a reinvite?
[15:51] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: The pic will have to wait
[15:51] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Tell us your response ... and GF will most likely send it
[15:51] zeit: Response to what?
[15:51] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: It does not matter where they are ... We wont settle for anything less than off Bob
[15:52] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Zeit - What are you going to do
[15:52] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Just a letter ?
[15:52] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Threat ?
[15:52] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Military action
[15:52] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Embargo ?
[15:52] zeit: You don't know what you are going to do now.
[15:52] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Ignore
[15:52] zeit: so how can you excoect us to know?
[15:52] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Thats right
[15:52] zeit: we havn't even contacted Vox
[15:52] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: I dont know how a pic will help
[15:52] zeit: i know you are upset, but this will take time
[15:53] -apolyton.net:@#private- Shiber invited Aeson into channel #private.
[15:53] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Yes - I know
[15:53] zeit: we'll probably delay the save, to give us both more time
[15:53] * Aeson has joined #private
[15:53] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We wont send it on until we are certain we have a Joint ND / RP / GoW plan
[15:54] Shiber: Hot_Enamel[GoW], I'm asking for a shot because I'd like GS to confront Vox with accurate information of their forces and their surroundings. If we do, then our letter would sound much more threatening.
[15:54] zeit: what if you need more than 24 hours for that?
[15:54] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We will unite pretty quickly
[15:54] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Shiber - We know we are not lieing
[15:55] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Vox Knows what they are doing
[15:55] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: You dont need a shot
[15:55] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: The pic has been sent to ND & RP
[15:55] zeit: If Vox knows GS knows exactly what;s going on- they'll think differently
[15:55] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Good Grief - Tell them you asked us
[15:56] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: 2 immortals, 1 spearman 1 settler
[15:56] zeit: they'll know we've been talking, and talking seriously, and they'll feel isolated
[15:56] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: That is enough to prove it
[15:56] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Gf wont send the pic
[15:56] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Not yet
[15:56] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Maybe later in the day
[15:57] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: You need to discuss with you team
[15:57] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Maybe he will send the pic before you draft your Vox response
[15:57] *alva* I want in !!!!!!! ;) :D
[15:57] -apolyton.net:@#private- Shiber invited alva into channel #private.
[15:57] zeit: I don't think this will change the content of our response to them, so that doesn't matter
[15:57] * alva has joined #private
[15:57] zeit: hi there alva!
[15:58] alva: hello all :)
[15:58] zeit: we really have a GoW-GS summit here
[15:58] * Shiber sets mode: +o Aeson
[15:58] alva: :b
[15:58] * Shiber sets mode: +o alva
[15:59] alva: Are we 4 to 1 ? :)
[15:59] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Now we are
[15:59] Shiber: Hot_Enamel[GoW], I don't like saying this... but you contradict yourself.
[15:59] alva: good ;)
[15:59] Shiber: You are certain that Bob will unite (which seems absurd to us, but nevermind), but you still want us to send Vox a threat?
[16:00] Shiber: If you're so confident, then you should want Vox to attack, isn't that so?
[16:00] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Why would anyone want war ?
[16:00] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: If GS, ND, GoW, RP all told them to back off ????
[16:01] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: They would have to seriously think about it
[16:01] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: If we all told them that to settle a city would certainly mean war ????
[16:01] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Surely they will retreat
[16:01] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: GF wants the address for thepic
[16:02] Shiber: gatheringstorm@softhome.net
[16:02] Shiber: Just remember: noone can help GoW like GS, because
[16:02] Shiber: 1. GS has the best relations with Vox.
[16:03] Shiber: 2. ND and RP both have an interest in seeing you lose.
[16:03] Shiber: You know they'd love to divide your territory while your forces are busy holding back immortals or fighting senseless wars on Vox's homeland.
[16:04] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Check you email - I have sent the pic

FrustratedPoet · March 22, 2003, 09:22

I thought they said in the chat that they hadn't moved? Or did I misinterpret something?

Shiber · March 22, 2003, 09:23

Part II

[16:04] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: I understand the importance of GS
[16:04] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: That is why we are here
[16:04] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: There is always a chance of a ND-RP backstab
-
[16:04] Hot_Enamel[GoW] is ~hot_ename@c17793.lowrp1.vic.optusnet.com.au * Hot_Enamel
[16:04] Hot_Enamel[GoW] on @#private #apolyton
[16:04] Hot_Enamel[GoW] using apolyton.net Apolyton Settler Server
[16:04] Hot_Enamel[GoW] has been idle 3secs, signed on Sat Mar 22 12:42:40
[16:04] Hot_Enamel[GoW] End of /WHOIS list.
-
[16:05] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We know that
[16:05] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: but most likely we will unite
[16:05] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: There is an unwritten agreement
[16:05] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We hate each other -- but will unite against a common foe
[16:06] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: GS is our best optin here
[16:06] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Best option
[16:06] zeit: but is Vox a common foe?
[16:06] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: I believe RP & ND will not want Vox on Bob
[16:08] zeit: i also believe- but that won't stop them from only letting you handle, while they sit and watch, and plan
[16:08] Shiber: or rather - scheme. :evilND&RPgrin:
[16:08] -: *zeit* shot: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...89#post1845707
[16:08] -: *aeson* shot: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...89#post1845707
[16:09] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: True enough - I see your point
[16:09] -: *alva* shot: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...89#post1845707
[16:09] zeit: what if Vox settles on Bob, what happens than?
[16:09] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: There will be war
[16:09] zeit: are they such a threat to your expansion?
[16:09] *alva* already got it :)
[16:09] *alva* hanks anyway :)
[16:10] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Would you allow a GoW settler & 3 riders on your continent ? In your border ?
[16:10] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We wont hurt you
[16:10] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We just want 1 city there
[16:10] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: :)
[16:10] zeit: our continent is far smaller
[16:10] alva: And we could take of it ourselves ;)
[16:10] zeit: and according to you description, Vox settled pretty far from your core
[16:10] alva: * care
[16:11] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: You continent is most likely the same size as North Bob which is shared by ND & GoW
[16:11] zeit: i wouldn't be so sure
[16:11] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We could swap maps :)
[16:11] zeit: not again... :)
[16:11] alva: lol
[16:11] zeit: you guys are persistent
[16:11] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Yes we are
[16:11] zeit: to say the least :)
[16:12] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Did you get the pic
[16:12] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Its irrelevent where they are on the continent
[16:12] alva: Nice graphic mod btw, I use some of it too :)
[16:12] zeit: yes i did
[16:12] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Had they settled South, we would help out RP
[16:12] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Maybe not military but embargo ? etc etc
[16:13] zeit: that's what i thought of- start from an embargo, and move up the ladder
[16:13] zeit: save the war threat last
[16:13] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: It wont stop them from building that city
[16:13] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: While we are embargoing, they are pooring immortals into it
[16:14] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We wont allow that city to exist
[16:14] zeit: they can't pour immortals, not with they're econ
[16:15] * Aeson has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer )
[16:15] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Well - maybe they believe their friend down south wont invade because they get along so well
[16:15] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: So they pour everything they got into it
[16:15] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: To make this work, we need strong action from GS
[16:16] alva: ATM, we don't have a reason to attack..
[16:16] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Then its war, we will invade Vox
[16:16] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: GS shares their continent with GoW instead
[16:17] alva: That doesn't mean, we can't be persuaded ;)
[16:17] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Do whatever you can to stop them from settling
[16:17] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: it will get messy - It always does
[16:17] alva: Who says btw, we will stand for Gow beeing on our continent.
[16:18] zeit: does it have to, who says?
[16:18] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: As alva says -
[16:18] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We destroy Vox settler
[16:18] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We invade Vox homeland
[16:18] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: This upsets GS
[16:18] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: GS & GoW end up eyeballing each other
[16:18] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: GS & GoW are friends
[16:19] zeit: your invasion to Vox will take some time, and our invasion to the Voxian lands will be quick
[16:19] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Excellent plan Zeit
[16:19] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We will withdraw and let you have them
[16:19] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: No probs
[16:20] alva: So, we do all the dirty work?
[16:20] zeit: i didn't say we would, but it's far more viable than a crusade on your hand
[16:20] zeit: hardly so- they take the loose troops
[16:20] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: I know Zeit - Just explaining it will get messy
[16:20] zeit: we take the cities
[16:20] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We dont want this to happen
[16:21] Shiber: Hot_Enamel[GoW], keep in mind though that you can't hold any possessions on our continent for long.
[16:21] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Hopefully you can tell them how upset we are
[16:21] Shiber: I remind you that our civ is religious. This means cheap temples.
[16:21] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Shiber :)
[16:21] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: It will get messy
[16:21] Shiber: Your capital is on the western side of North Bob. This means a very favorable distance from palace ratio for us.
[16:21] zeit: if you invade- but there is a better way to handle this
[16:21] Shiber: Relatively soon, your cities will culture-flip to our hands, and we can't promise to reject a flip.
[16:21] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: There are better ways

[15:20] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Shiber - We dont want to invade
[15:20] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: This sounds like we are threatening each other
[15:20] zeit: if you take Vox's offensive punch, we'll just walk into Vox
[15:20] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We dont want this
[15:20] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Ziet, that will meet our objective
[15:20] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We are militaristic
[15:20] zeit: we aren't threatening, we're seriously examining the options
[15:20] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Have a heap of elites
[15:20] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Leaders ??
[15:20] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Yum
[15:21] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Zeit - I know that
[15:21] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Best option is for GS to come down hard on Vox for us
[15:21] * Shiber has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[15:22] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Zeit - Its pushing 1:30am
[15:22] alva: That says it all, doesn't it? we coming down on Vox for YOU..
[15:22] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: I gotta go
[15:22] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Alva - GS said they would help
[15:23] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Just because you threaten them - doesnt mean you will do it
[15:23] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: We are asking for help thats all
[15:23] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: It's up to GS if they want to help
[15:23] zeit: true
[15:23] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: GS has the best relationship with Vox
[15:23] zeit: we do, believe me, but we have to weigh our options carefuly first
[15:23] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Of course
[15:24] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: I am sure GF is hard at work now with RP & ND
[15:24] -apolyton.net:@#private- alva invited Shiber into channel #private.
[15:24] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Guys I have to go - I am sorry
[15:24] * Shiber has joined #private.

Session Start: Sat Mar 22 16:27:19 2003
Session Ident: #private
[16:27] * Now talking in #private
[16:27] zeit: we'll stay in contact, good luck!
[16:27] Shiber: Hello.
[16:27] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Thats guys
[16:27] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Bye
[16:27] Shiber: Sorry for leaving earlier, my computer crashed.
[16:27] zeit: bye
[16:27] Hot_Enamel[GoW]: Np
[16:27] Shiber: Zeit, what did I miss? :)
[16:27] * Hot_Enamel[GoW] has left #private
[16:28] zeit: not much, we were going through a possible GoW-GS attack on vox...
[16:28] alva: I'm still confused here
[16:28] zeit: but not in details
[16:28] alva: So gow takes out 2 or 3 units, get 2 workers, and we do the rest?

Theseus · March 22, 2003, 09:23

(Theseus rubs hands... CRY HAVOC, and let slip the dogs of war!)

alva · March 22, 2003, 09:38

Couldn't Vox have said something to us....

Shiber · March 22, 2003, 09:44

GoW says that everyone on Bob hates each other, but they will unite against a common enemy - Vox. I think this is bull, since ND and RP would be better off attacking GoW while they are busy fending off immortals. And, to quote Zeit:

[16:34] hmm, i cross examined their pic with the one ixnay gave us.
[16:34] and it seems like GoW is in very vulnerable position
[16:35] alva: That's why I would prefer to support VOX
[16:35] zeit: the ND core cities are pointed straight at a long line of GoW rushed cities
[16:36] zeit: if Gow plans to seriously defend from ND, they'll have a hard time

We must assume that if Vox declares war on GoW, then ND and/or RP will attack sooner or later.

IMHO, our options are as follows:

1. Help GoW, by trying to persuade Vox to withdraw or by attacking Vox (or at least harassing them, e.g. by destroying their iron colony). GoW will be forever in our debt, and IMHO they can be persuaded to pay us for our efforts (especially if we cut Vox's supply of iron).
Problems with this plan: we can't launch a frontal assault on Vox right now; militarily, we can go as far as destroying their iron colony. Furthermore, attacking Vox means not getting their free early medieval tech at the beginning of the next age.

2. Side with Vox, by assuring them that we won't attack while they're dealing with GoW (this would free up two Voxian warriors that can be upgraded to immortals, and a spearman), by backing them up with gold if they need more for upgrades (of course, they would have to return it plus a certain interest later. That is, if they survive) and even by offering them our map of northern bob (perhaps, in return for some cash later?

). Later, when we're ready to attack Vox, we could attack their beachhead simultaneously and take over.
Problems with this plan: GoW will lose a war to ND (which has a lot of swordsmen left over from the war with Lux, and has built additional swordsmen since) and RP, who will take advantage of the situation and open additional fronts, which GoW will not be able to handle due to their lack of iron and unstrategic city placement pattern. ND and RP will take GoW's place, and we'll have two giants on Bob, each one controlling half of the continent. It would then become very difficult to establish a beachhead of our own on Bob.

alva · March 22, 2003, 09:47

You mean Vox in point 2, don't you?

Both Vox and Gow are going to be gone soon anyway, no need for etarnal friendship from either of them IMO.

Shiber · March 22, 2003, 09:48

Preventing this war altogether might be in our best interest... GoW says that they have some elites (if not, then they'll have some soon anyway) thanks to their militaristic trait, and they may get leaders out of this. Think of the outcry when we find out that we've lost the pyramids to GoW...

Edit: on second though, GoW isn't going to win many battles with their horsemen against Vox's immortals.

alva · March 22, 2003, 09:51

Gow isn't gonna get rid of Vox that easily, their cities are too far from the Voxian BOB city to attack anytime soon.
-
What if we can get Lego into this....

Shiber · March 22, 2003, 09:51

Originally posted by alva
You mean Vox in point 2, don't you?

Yes

Fixed.

Both Vox and Gow are going to be gone soon anyway, no need for etarnal friendship from either of them IMO.

You make a good point... but the question is, when do we want them to disappear?
I for one would not like to see Vox go before they've given us their free early medieval tech. With GoW, it's a question of how they are killed - in a war where they are inadequately prepared and defended because they're fighting off immortals elsewhere, or in a situation where they can defend their borders for as long as possible, which would result in a trenchwar that would hurt all of Bob?