To Americans and the rest of the world...

[PrinceBimz]

Go back to Pearl Harbor...read a book or watch a movie. Remember, back then the US were attempting negociations with Japan. The book or movie will show you the rest. I take it many already know what happened but sometimes I think they forget. If you are one of those who forgot, go back and read or watch.

"The US are the bad guys?"

Now go back just a little to the recent 9/11. Where were you during that day? What were you doing? How did you feel when you found out what had happened?Have you lost any loved ones in that attack?

"The US are the bad guys??"

Now why did they do it? What were they trying to proove by killing thousands of innocent people? I mean we are talking about airliners loaded with men, women and children citizens. We are talking about buildings where thousands of citizens work everyday. A landmark, a major city. Now look at all of the children left without parents. Or wives without husbands.

"The US are the bad guys???"

So why don't the terrorists target military facilities like the US attempts to do (and does fairly well) in last Gulf War? They had preferred to attack unarmed civilians on airliners. Do the terrorist care about human life?

"Now tell me, are the US still bad guys????"

They come on our land and kill thousands of our innocent unarmed people. Then they say we should not attack. We are the ones who need to negociate? Well you know what? We are going to attack. So next time, before claiming the US are evil and we are the bad guys, read this again. At last lets gets some support here!

[Asher]

USA! USA! USA!

[Dauphin]

You learn your history from the movie Pearl Harbour?

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
You learn your history from the movie Pearl Harbour?

An excellent way to miss a good point.

[flash9286]

They come on our land and kill thousands of our innocent unarmed people. Then they say we should not attack. We are the ones who need to negociate? Well you know what? We are going to attack. So next time, before claiming the US are evil and we are the bad guys, read this again. At last lets gets some support here!

How many civilians are going to be killed in Iraq. Were no more important to them. Arent we terrorists just usinig convential warfare.

[ranskaldan]

Whoa... you don't have to start that many threads on the same thing.

Originally posted by PrinceBimz
"The US are the bad guys?"

Pretty much

Okay, I'll be a bit fairer: the US is acting like the big kid on the block. Nothing really wrong with that, except that it doesn't involve too much of being nice.

Now why did they do it? What were they trying to proove by killing thousands of innocent people? I mean we are talking about airliners loaded with men, women and children citizens. We are talking about buildings where thousands of citizens work everyday. A landmark, a major city. Now look at all of the children left without parents. Or wives without husbands.

They were trying to make a point. American bombing of Iraq would equally be an attempt at making a point.

In both cases, btw, the point is liberation, freedom, and self-determination.

So why don't the terrorists target military facilities like the US attempts to do (and does fairly well) in last Gulf War? They had preferred to attack unarmed civilians on airliners. Do the terrorist care about human life?

Because they can't?

They come on our land and kill thousands of our innocent unarmed people. Then they say we should not attack. We are the ones who need to negociate? Well you know what? We are going to attack. So next time, before claiming the US are evil and we are the bad guys, read this again. At last lets gets some support here!

Who are they? Who is the the enemy? A catch-all category where you throw anyone and everyone you feel like beating up? If this is really about the "enemy", then your taxdollars are far better spent on pursuing the remnants of Al Qaeda, and countries that support terrorism far more than Iraq ever has - Iran, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria, Libya.

You're right, this is almost like a movie. Whether Lord of the Rings or Braveheart, there is always an enemy that you can kill without remorse, that you can kill without end in the name of "the defense of our homes". Well, guess what, your real enemy operates on exactly the same idea.

Ultimately, this idea of the faceless enemy is simply used to whip the populace into a frenzy and ready to attack anyone who may vaguely be different. And apparently, it has worked.

[The Andy-Man]

Try telling all that the all the palistinian Children killed by US tanks and Guns.


Don't forget the villages that the US's super high tech lasewr guided missiles 'accidently' hit.

what is it now? 6000 afghan civilians killed by the USA, rtweice the amount of Sept. 11th.

Lets also consider WHY Al Qaeda started up in the first place....

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by PLATO1003


An excellent way to miss a good point.

There is a difference between ignoring and missing.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

My, someone's been popping the patriotism pills today.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by PrinceBimz
They come on our land and kill thousands of our innocent unarmed people. Then they say we should not attack. We are the ones who need to negociate? Well you know what? We are going to attack. So next time, before claiming the US are evil and we are the bad guys, read this again. At last lets gets some support here!

I'm all for going after the terrorists behind September 11th. What does that have to do with Iraq? That is what you're alluding to, isn't it?

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Big Crunch


There is a difference between ignoring and missing.

Well, at least you agree it was a good point

[The Andy-Man]

Any way, didn't Japan DoW because of the US oil Embargo?

[Sandman]

Your splendid little war is going to kill half a million people. It'll be the first genocide of the 21st Century. Well bloody done.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Sandman
Your splendid little war is going to kill half a million people. It'll be the first genocide of the 21st Century. Well bloody done.

Please define and deferetiate "genoside" and "war" It would help me understand where you are coming from.

[Felch]

It would be genocide if you eliminated the entire ethnic group. If you're going to "invent" a language by stealing words from other sources, at least use your language properly.

[Sandman]

Please define and deferetiate "genoside" and "war" It would help me understand where you are coming from.

I'm not a dictionary.

It would be genocide if you eliminated the entire ethnic group. If you're going to "invent" a language by stealing words from other sources, at least use your language properly.

By that logic, there have been hardly any genocides.

[Gangerolf]

love will conquer all

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Sandman


I'm not a dictionary.



By that logic, there have been hardly any genocides.

Sandman, I was referring to your definitions. If you are going to make that strong an accusation, you should be able to explain what you mean.

If you just used the word because you thought it would sound important and don't know what it means, all you had to do was say so.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Felch X
It would be genocide if you eliminated the entire ethnic group. If you're going to "invent" a language by stealing words from other sources, at least use your language properly.

Apparently genocide is described as merely a credible attempt to wipe out an entire ethnic group (thank you Ramo). So Hitler's campaign against the Jews was a genocide even though he missed a whole bunch of them.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Frogger


Apparently genocide is described as merely a credible attempt to wipe out an entire ethnic group (thank you Ramo). So Hitler's campaign against the Jews was a genocide even though he missed a whole bunch of them.

I think that this is more to my understanding of the word as opposed to actually accomplishing a complete wipeout.

[Spiffor]

PrinceBimz :
Yes, Sept. 11 terrorists are bad guys for sure. They purposefully kill civilians to instill the American people with fear and anger, and to make them do terrible mistakes for the future of America because of it.

Now, they don't have the monopoly of being evil. The US can be the bad guys, even though their enemies are bad as well.
Note, I don't think the US is the bad guy. I do think the US-administration is using the legitimate trauma of September 11 to further their imperialistic and warlike agenda. They betray the trust of the American people into a sorry adventure which has nearly nothing to do with terrorism, a trust the American people gave without hesitation after the horrors of Sept. 11.

You Americans aren't bad guys. Your administration is, even though they're not the only ones.

[Sandman]

Sandman, I was referring to your definitions. If you are going to make that strong an accusation, you should be able to explain what you mean.

Fine, this war will probably involve hundreds of thousands of deaths and millions of refugees. It will be genocidal because:

The Iraqis constitute a national group and are therefore eligble to be victims of genocide. (Silly, but that's the law apparently)

The war is an act of naked aggression.

The war will almost doubtlessly target Iraqi infrastructure, resulting in conditions that will bring about the partial destruction of the Iraqi people.

Depleted uranium shells may also have the effect of poisoning the land.

The Iraqi army is so outclassed that this war is best seen as similar to the wars by 19th Century troops against stone-age tribes. Iraqi conscripts may be legally combatants, but effectively they're the same as civilians.

[Zero]

Originally posted by The Andy-Man
Any way, didn't Japan DoW because of the US oil Embargo?

pretty much. Since they needed a quick victory in order to fight agst the US, They used the only option that was available to them. [big quote gesture]Pre-emptive attack.[/big quote gesture]

Where else have I heard about this [big quote gesture]Pre-emptive attack.[/big quote gesture]?

[Spiffor]

IIRC, the German declaration of war in 1914 wasn't motivated by fidelity towards Austria-Hungary, but as a pre-emptive strike. Germany feared that France and Russia would attack it sandwich-like some years later, and launched a "quick and easy" war to avoid it.

Everyone thought the whole mess would be finished by the end of 1914.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Sandman


Fine, this war will probably involve hundreds of thousands of deaths and millions of refugees. It will be genocidal because:

The Iraqis constitute a national group and are therefore eligble to be victims of genocide. (Silly, but that's the law apparently)

The war is an act of naked aggression.

The war will almost doubtlessly target Iraqi infrastructure, resulting in conditions that will bring about the partial destruction of the Iraqi people.

Depleted uranium shells may also have the effect of poisoning the land.

The Iraqi army is so outclassed that this war is best seen as similar to the wars by 19th Century troops against stone-age tribes. Iraqi conscripts may be legally combatants, but effectively they're the same as civilians.

Okay, that clears that up.

Now,

1.) The Us military is committed to attacking military targets and minimalizing the impact on the civilian population.

2.) The Us is already stockpiling food and relief material to minimize the impact on the civilian population

3.) By no estimate or projection that I have seen would any sizable part of the population become casualties, but just in case the US is stockpiling medical supplies and organizing Doctors and Nurses to help minimize the impact to the Civilian population.

4.) Enforcement of UN resolutions are not "naked aggression" under any definition I know of.

5.) Iraqi infrastructure will not only be rebuilt but will be improved as the country gets to enjoy the fruit of their oil revenue instead of it being pumped into presidential palaces, swiss bank accounts, financing of terrorism, and WMD.

6.) Depleted Uranium is just that...depleted.

7.) The Iraqi army is out classed. When they surrender we will cloth them, feed them, give them shelter, and access to a variety of services from religious to relief.

Further:

The war can be yet avoided if:

1.) Saddam comes clean now. Not tommorrow and not in parts.

2.) Saddam accepts the UAE plan and goes into exile.

3.) The people around him sense their plight and remove him themselves.

If this does not happen then the US will prevent:

1.) Malnutrtion and disease among Iraqi's due to the misappropriation of material by Iraq of the "oil for food" material.

2.) Summary execution of political dissenters.

3.) Payments to the families of terrorist

4.) Threats to Iraq's neighbors

5.) Harbouring of terrorist organizations

I could go on, but your point was about genocide. I hardly think it applies.

[Q Classic]

9/11 != 12/7.

why?

1. Pearl Harbor was a legitimate military target. Civilian casualties were vastly lower. The World Trade Centers were an illegitimate target, its principle victims being civilians and not military personnel.

2. Pearl Harbor's destruction was done after Japan declared war on us and broke off negotiations. Al Qaeda never truly declared war, nor was it ever in negotiations.

3. Pearl Harbor's destruction was undertaken by a hostile national government with the full backing of the nation, and not by small cells harbored by a government. Al Qaeda wasn't a government.

4. Japan was a single, cohesive nation with whom the United States could deal with directly, fighting back state to state. Al Qaeda is not a nation, nor is it truly cohesive. It is a network of cells with few contacts in between, and impossible to deal with as a whole.

•••

9/11 == 12/7

1. They both took a disinterested, rather complacent nation by surprise, but didn't truly shock experts in the area.

======

so please, don't draw the false analogy of the WTC destruction as another Pearl Harbor. because it isn't.

[South killer]

The imperialist thoughts again
I am very sorry about 9/11 and i know very innocent people was killed but that doesn't give usa the right to atack Irak. Unless you believe the stupid bush's excuses (the axis of evil, Irak with links to Al-Quaeda) is obvious that the only reason to attack Irak is the Oil price. That's what the usa has done all over it's history, implanting puppet dictatorships on every country they could but when the dictator didn't obeyed the USA then they knock it down with the excuse of defending democracy and free-speech. If you don't remember well, some years ago the USA SUPPORTED SADDAM but when saddam started to work for the good of Irak and not for tha good of the USA, then they started the gulf war. I'm not saying saddam is a good guy, but saying that the usa only attacks dictators when it's for they convenience.
Also, don't you remember of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Was that a good act? I think we know who are the bad guys....

[PLATO]

Originally posted by South killer
The imperialist thoughts again
I am very sorry about 9/11 and i know very innocent people was killed but that doesn't give usa the right to atack Irak. Unless you believe the stupid bush's excuses (the axis of evil, Irak with links to Al-Quaeda) is obvious that the only reason to attack Irak is the Oil price. That's what the usa has done all over it's history, implanting puppet dictatorships on every country they could but when the dictator didn't obeyed the USA then they knock it down with the excuse of defending democracy and free-speech. If you don't remember well, some years ago the USA SUPPORTED SADDAM but when saddam started to work for the good of Irak and not for tha good of the USA, then they started the gulf war. I'm not saying saddam is a good guy, but saying that the usa only attacks dictators when it's for they convenience.
Also, don't you remember of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Was that a good act? I think we know who are the bad guys....

Without meaning to be rude, this is one of the most ill-informed, stupid posts I have read on this subject.

You neither know who the bad guys are nor any of the facts.

[Ozz]

Originally posted by PrinceBimz Go back to Pearl Harbor...

Been watching too many John (Chickhawk) Wayne movies. Emotional appeals won't work.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by PrinceBimz
How did you feel when you found out what had happened?

'Interesting News. Seems someone had the guts to strike back. They certainly had it coming.'