Play the World and the Real World...

Kramerman · February 25, 2003, 13:44

I was talking to my good friend the other day about a PtW game we played a few months ago. We both agreed it was truely the greatest civ game either of us had ever played. He then told me of his feelings of it, and it sent chills down my spine, as it frighteningly paralled reality...

We played on a random map, that was fabulous. It presented interesting strategic designs as well as a good disperssion of resources that encouraged trade. I was the Romans, my friend the Spanish.

After dozens of hours of game time, and a particularly memorable Epic war against the English, I reigned victorious. My friend had done very well himself, he was the second most powerful nation. However, ther was a very large gap in our power. I completely controled one of the two major supercontinents, and many colonial islands around the world. My sheer economic and industrial output was unmatched, my people were very happy, and the red terretory of the Roman Emipre that blanketed the map was a glorious sight to behold.

My friend rememberd it well too. When we were talking about the game, and our recent failures to recreate an equally impressive PtW game, he confided in me his feelings that he wouldnt have dared to earlier. He told me how he felt sooo envious of my strength and power while we were playing. He said he didnt like how I was more powerful and larger than him, even tho his own power was impressive. He told me how during many of our diplomatic transactions and coordinated militray actions, he would deliberately foul up or do something underhanded in the attemt to hurt my success, even tho our official diplomatic stance was allied. He asked me to help him build up for a war against germany, when he secretly set all his cities to build the spaceship, adn win the space race. He asked for gold to help him prepare for war, when he was actually using it for his space endeavors. Meanwhile, my war mobilized economy foolishly and naively prepared for the massive war that never came. He did lots of other stuff too, like trying to plant a spy in my capital, which i didnt take too kindly towards...

He told me he really didnt understand it. He knew we were supposed to be allies and helping each other, but he said he just didnt like how my civ was over all better than his, and he wanted to do everything he could to bring it down as much as he could, with out upsettingme, as he knew that I would crush him if i found out.

I found this very interesting, as I have believed this to be among the mentalities in Real World politics. It often seems to me that countries often do things with the real purpose of hurting the US, even tho they may be officially allied, all because the US is so successful and they are somewhat envious. Even some of our European allies, who are very successful themselves, seem to do clandestine, insidious things too. It is... disheartening

.... PtW, it seems, is an even more accurate simulator than I had ever thought...

Nubclear · February 25, 2003, 15:44

Yawn. Standrard "they are SO envious!!!" routine to make yourself feel better.....

Only problem is, its beginning to look like you actually BELIEVE that

I've already explained why the world hates you....But you refuse to listen to the truth

I will not explain again. Instead, I resign to watching your country shoot itself in the foot.

Imran Siddiqui · February 25, 2003, 15:50

The world is envious, Tass

Boris Godunov · February 25, 2003, 15:55

I envy the French, actually. Great cheese, Paris is nearby no matter where you are in the country, and you only have to work 3 days a week. Or is it down to 2 now?

JohnT · February 25, 2003, 15:55

Tassadar is French? I didn't know that...

Sava · February 25, 2003, 15:58

PtW sucks... Civ 2 :TOT is king of Civ games!

General Ludd · February 25, 2003, 16:03

2 humans allied against the computer?

Of course he tried to backstab you, there's nothing else that interesting to do in such a game.

Nubclear · February 25, 2003, 16:05

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
The world is envious, Tass

I'll bite.

That is part of it. I mean, you can't help but be envious of the american who can go to McDonalds every day and become fat like 63 percent of them have while you sit in a dictatorship the US supported, starving away. That would cause envy.

But its not all envy. In fact, most of it isnt envy. Though everyone will have different reasons, predominately its ANGER. Anger and envy are NOT the same thing. You can have envy without anger, you can have anger without envy.

Anger is caused by YOUR ACTIONS. You went around the world supporting dictatorships because the democracies were friendly towards the SU. You went around bombing innocents because you wanted to kill 1 man. Your now defying world opinion and going to go in and kill even more innocents and cause a HUMANITARIAN CRISIS because you refuse to assasinate the man.

Even now, your friends are beginning to back away from you. Why? Because, your actions are so ignorant and stupid and defying the world that the governments of such countries can't risk being with you (if they are democracies) lest they be un-elected next time elections come around.

Your arrogence is another part of the ANGER that everyone feels. Yes, people get ANGRY when Americans begin shouting that they are number 1, and get even more angry when suddenly people form militias to hunt down Mexicans escaping their poverty-wridden country to come to America, or those whom begin supporting closing the borders.

Your ignorance is another part of it. You go around with very little knowledge of the world. Heck, 49 percent of you (in a poll conducted last year) supporting limiting free speech for the war on terror. Almost everyone I've talked to thinks the government could never be corrupted!!!

I learned in the Soviet Union to question EVERYTHING the government says because they lied. They lied to EVERYONE.

Your hypocracy is another part of it. You say your invading Iraq to enforce the UNs will......What about Israel whos violated MORE resolutions than Iraq (nearly double!). What about Pakistan who continues to proliferate nuclear weapons around the world? What about Saudi Arabia whos FUNDING TERRORISTS TRYING TO KILL YOU?!

People are not simply envious of you. Thats just a cheap cop out and both you and I know it. Its much more deep and much more complex than that. To say otherwise is to close your mind to the facts around you so that you can simply feel better.

Nubclear · February 25, 2003, 16:06

Originally posted by JohnT
Tassadar is French? I didn't know that...

I'm simply protesting childish American angers by selecting it as my flag.

JohnT · February 25, 2003, 16:08

"I'm simply protesting childish American angers by selecting it as my flag."

Is that supposed to be intentionally funny?

Sava · February 25, 2003, 16:08

I would have backstabbed you...

Nubclear · February 25, 2003, 16:10

Originally posted by JohnT
"I'm simply protesting childish American angers by selecting it as my flag."

Is that supposed to be intentionally funny?

Yeah. Forgot the smiley

Imran Siddiqui · February 25, 2003, 16:16

I'll bite.

MWHAHAHAHA

Oh, was I supposed to read the rest of that post?

JohnT · February 25, 2003, 16:24

Remember what he said yesterday, Imran? It's the same thing today, and it will be the same thing for the rest of time.

In short, I'm sure you have already read it.

Nubclear · February 25, 2003, 16:25

Originally posted by JohnT
In short, I'm sure you have already read it.

Thats true. But I'll keep restating it until he understands

Imran Siddiqui · February 25, 2003, 16:25

Yeah, I did... I try not to be too serious most of the time

.

Nubclear · February 25, 2003, 16:26

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Yeah, I did... I try not to be too serious most of the time

.

Yes, I can tell

PLATO · February 25, 2003, 16:30

Originally posted by Tassadar5000

I'll bite.

That is part of it. I mean, you can't help but be envious of the american who can go to McDonalds every day and become fat like 63 percent of them have while you sit in a dictatorship the US supported, starving away. That would cause envy.

But its not all envy. In fact, most of it isnt envy. Though everyone will have different reasons, predominately its ANGER. Anger and envy are NOT the same thing. You can have envy without anger, you can have anger without envy.

Anger is caused by YOUR ACTIONS. You went around the world supporting dictatorships because the democracies were friendly towards the SU. You went around bombing innocents because you wanted to kill 1 man. Your now defying world opinion and going to go in and kill even more innocents and cause a HUMANITARIAN CRISIS because you refuse to assasinate the man.

Even now, your friends are beginning to back away from you. Why? Because, your actions are so ignorant and stupid and defying the world that the governments of such countries can't risk being with you (if they are democracies) lest they be un-elected next time elections come around.

Your arrogence is another part of the ANGER that everyone feels. Yes, people get ANGRY when Americans begin shouting that they are number 1, and get even more angry when suddenly people form militias to hunt down Mexicans escaping their poverty-wridden country to come to America, or those whom begin supporting closing the borders.

Your ignorance is another part of it. You go around with very little knowledge of the world. Heck, 49 percent of you (in a poll conducted last year) supporting limiting free speech for the war on terror. Almost everyone I've talked to thinks the government could never be corrupted!!!

I learned in the Soviet Union to question EVERYTHING the government says because they lied. They lied to EVERYONE.

Your hypocracy is another part of it. You say your invading Iraq to enforce the UNs will......What about Israel whos violated MORE resolutions than Iraq (nearly double!). What about Pakistan who continues to proliferate nuclear weapons around the world? What about Saudi Arabia whos FUNDING TERRORISTS TRYING TO KILL YOU?!

People are not simply envious of you. Thats just a cheap cop out and both you and I know it. Its much more deep and much more complex than that. To say otherwise is to close your mind to the facts around you so that you can simply feel better.

I don't know what planet you are living on. Mine's called Earth.

You should get your facts straight. Pretty bold to call others ignorant given your suppositions.

Kropotkin · February 25, 2003, 16:36

Originally posted by Kramerman
It often seems to me that countries often do things with the real purpose of hurting the US, even tho they may be officially allied, all because the US is so successful and they are somewhat envious.

I'll comment on this without turing into a high pitched voice and start talking about what the americans do etc. However, I would think you're feelings are mostly based on the fact you live in the US and/or the angles of your news sources. Belive me, if you're from another country you'd not see it in that way for the same reasons.

Not that there's no elements of pride and childish behavior in the world of diplomacy, of cource there is. However there's no need to overempasis it.

Arrian · February 25, 2003, 16:56

Kman, I bestow upon you a 3/10. Imran gets a gold star for getting Tass to bite.

Sounds like a cool PTW game, btw. Even if it was 2 humans beating up on the AI.

-Arrian

LDiCesare · February 25, 2003, 17:19

Don't you know experiments have been performed on (mostly) students showing envy/backstabbing behaviours?
More or less the experiment was thus:
4 studied students, who couldn't see one another, were given money, and played some game together. In the end, some had won money, some had lost, but remember, all the money wasn't theirs to begin with, ti was given to them, and they could depart with it after the experiment.
Now after the game, the experiment continued, and the players could use their money to remove money from other players (like those who had beat them for example). 1 $ could remove 5 $ for example.
It would be totally silly form an economic perspective to waste that money (prevent people you don't know and can't see and you won't ever know who they are from keeping money, at the cost of your own).
Still, players wasted their money to destroy that gained by those who had performed better than them.

If that's not envy, at least that's human behaviour. It is destructive and self-destructive.

Arrian · February 25, 2003, 17:22

Wow, what idjits. Then again, most people are idjits.

-Arrian

Nubclear · February 25, 2003, 18:25

Originally posted by PLATO1003

I don't know what planet you are living on. Mine's called Earth.

You should get your facts straight. Pretty bold to call others ignorant given your suppositions.

Whine whine whine......But at the end of the day, your still living in America

PLATO · February 25, 2003, 18:41

Whine whine whine......But at the end of the day, your still living in America

Thank God!

Nubclear · February 25, 2003, 18:41

Originally posted by PLATO1003

Thank God!

Yep. So please dont tell me I have no idea what I'm talking about, because its YOU whom has no idea what YOUR talking about.

Thanks

Switch · February 25, 2003, 18:48

Igonring any facts, or possibility of wrong facts, I agree with Tass. I do not, in any way, shape, or form, envy the US. But, I also don't consider the country to be superior to Canada (not gloating, just a view based on my morals).
So you have a high economy? So...money isn't the center of my life (and, actually right now Canada has the best economy in the G7). Great military? bah, diplomacy is usually better. And when that doesn't work, the UN'll help us out. But diplomacy first.
I think it a rather blind argument to say that just because someone doesn't like something, they must in reality be in envy of it.

And frankly, I actually find the American view on France right now to be sick. So what if you helped them in WW2, that isn't any reason for them to help America in a war that they disagree with. WWII was a war of defence, not offence. America saw a need, and helped. For that, you deserve honour. But you don't deserve a repayment by France. Excuse me, now, as I eat my FRENCH fries

.

Dis · February 25, 2003, 19:01

I can't believe someone said to Assassinate Saddam.

You realize we would take just as much heat for that as we will for invading his country.

Lancer · February 25, 2003, 19:14

Sounds like an opponent to keep around. He didn't quit when you were ahead, and though he got a bit emotional and seriously BSed you, he still managed to follow a strategy towards winning. Your games w/ him from here on should be more interesting, at least in human foriegn relations.

Kramerman · February 26, 2003, 01:15

Not that there's no elements of pride and childish behavior in the world of diplomacy, of cource there is. However there's no need to overempasis it.

i dont think i put overemphasis on it at all. I didnt mean to say either that the whole world (as in population) is envious, just that many governemnts are, and backstab us even tho they are supposed to be our friends and allies. And their most probable cause for this is envy, id say, unless you can rationally argue a more reasonable motive to backstab a 'friend'.

Originally posted by Arrian
Kman, I bestow upon you a 3/10. Imran gets a gold star for getting Tass to bite.

Sounds like a cool PTW game, btw. Even if it was 2 humans beating up on the AI.

-Arrian

a 3/10???

why, may i ask?

Kramerman · February 26, 2003, 01:16

Originally posted by LDiCesare
Don't you know experiments have been performed on (mostly) students showing envy/backstabbing behaviours?
More or less the experiment was thus:
4 studied students, who couldn't see one another, were given money, and played some game together. In the end, some had won money, some had lost, but remember, all the money wasn't theirs to begin with, ti was given to them, and they could depart with it after the experiment.
Now after the game, the experiment continued, and the players could use their money to remove money from other players (like those who had beat them for example). 1 $ could remove 5 $ for example.
It would be totally silly form an economic perspective to waste that money (prevent people you don't know and can't see and you won't ever know who they are from keeping money, at the cost of your own).
Still, players wasted their money to destroy that gained by those who had performed better than them.

If that's not envy, at least that's human behaviour. It is destructive and self-destructive.

exactly! and this is what goes on in world politics, all the time.