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**TheStinger** · February 13, 2003, 11:42

0.00000000000000000000000001/10

**Bereta_Eder** · February 13, 2003, 11:43

americans suck!

**DinoDoc** · February 13, 2003, 11:46

FOPGians blow!

**Bereta_Eder** · February 13, 2003, 11:50

And the whole world sings: Americans suck

**DinoDoc** · February 13, 2003, 11:51

Just as long as we don't swallow.

**Eli** · February 13, 2003, 11:52

USA! USA! USA!

*ahem*

**Bereta_Eder** · February 13, 2003, 11:55

The whole civilized world supports Palestinian independance!

**Giovanni Wine** · February 13, 2003, 11:59

Bah... In answer to everything Ironknit said I'd just say:

"You're not alone in this planet"

Saluti

**Kropotkin** · February 13, 2003, 12:01

Re: the answer to anti-Americanism

Originally posted by Ironikinit
... is to do nothing. Forget about them. Frankly I believe the common form of the rabid anti-American to be a sign of mental deficiency or inbalance. No matter what the US does, this type will cry foul. In fact, IMO trying to work with the UN has been a fiasco for the US on the Iraq issue. The USA needs to get bearings from its own moral compass, not listen to the mouthings of insignificant crackpots.

Frankly, the same could be said about views from the US on a number of occations. The level of the cross atlantic debate nowadays futher neither.

However, those who subscribe to outlandish, untested theories of government or theories proven by history to lead to disaster can safely be ignored.

While I don't know what theories you're thinking about I can't really understand how such a theory can be both untested and proven to be a disaster at the same time.

...America has become the greatest nation the world has ever seen, unquestioned in its leadership in the fields of science, industry, economics, and military strength. Have pity on the envious who will always think the worst, and leave them to wallow in their hate.

That many americans look at themselves as a nation chosen by God witch in turn after a while makes it hard to tell them apart form the talibans will as usal not help the cross atlantic connections. It's hard to conduct a reasonable debate if either of the sides refuse alternatives a priori.

In short, the ignore feature works, use it.

So why are you starting a thread about something you're ignoring?

**DaShi** · February 13, 2003, 12:06

I agree, Americans just like the attention.

**Urban Ranger** · February 13, 2003, 12:11

Re: the answer to anti-Americanism

Originally posted by Ironikinit
The USA needs to get bearings from its own moral compass, not listen to the mouthings of insignificant crackpots.

Moral compass? US foreign policy? What have you been smoking? Can I have some?

**Spiffor** · February 13, 2003, 12:24

In your post, you make a point. And many mistakes.

You are absolutely right when you say you should ignore rabid anti-americanism, as an individual. If rabid anti-americanism becomes too much spread, your government should do something about it (because it's dangerous for US citizens), but you shouldn't worry too much about extremist loonies.

However, I think you're just about wrong in everthing else you say :

"No matter what the US does, this type will cry foul".

Wrong. Many people, including in Europe, supported the war in Afghanistan or in Kosovo. There has been a huge solidarity after Sept. 11 in all the western world. The recent surge of antiamericanism is due to the sheer arrogance your foreign policy shows under Bush :
- refusal of Kyoto protocol (which raised huge hopes in Europe),
- warmongering militantism against Iraq (here, we feel that Americans don't even try to think of a peaceful solution, and consider their guns to be the only answer)
- Significant lowering of human rights, especially regarding prisoners made during the war on terror.
- I also think the hate for the US in the Arabic world comes from the permanent backing of Israel. Also, the US tries to deprive the Arabic world of a leading power, and thus to attack/kill each time a country threatens to become one (like Iraq).

"those who subscribe to outlandish, untested theories of government or theories proven by history to lead to disaster can safely be ignored"

I wonder what you mean with "outlandish, untested theories of government", could you be more explicit please ?
Also, I assume you're referring to appeasement when you speak about "theories proven by history to lead to disaster". And I asume you're referring to the arguments of France, Germany, Russia and China. (My assumptions may be completely wrong, in this case, please specify what you meant if you reply, please)
What is appeasement ? It is the French / British diplomatic strategy used before WW2, which aimed to avoid war by giving hitler what he wanted. This was motivated by fear, and by the assumption hitler had a finite apetite, and would stop demanding at some point.
Today, if a country is appeasing, it is Iraq itself. It has officially agreed to every demand made by the UN from the beginning of the crisis, by allowing inspectors back, by giving a huge report within the tiny period of one month, etc. Saddam knows very well his regime will fall if there is war, so he tries to appease the West.
France, Russia, germany and China aren't models of goodwill and humanity, as they try to prevent a war for very rational reasons (domestic / European politics, deals with Saddam's regime, showing the US it's not the only bully anymore, etc. etc.) Their strategy is not appeasement, for they are not motivated by fear of the rampaging Iraqi army.
These countries try to find a diplomatic solution to the crisis, and want to avoid the bloodbath, for it would go against their insterests (only Germany is somehow sincere by wanting to avoid a bloodbath out of moral reasons). A diplomatic solution would be successful, for example, if all Iraqi WMD and research programs have been destroyed by UN experts ; Saddam's regime would probably be unscathed, even if these countries might demand (once again) to Saddam to put mock democratic institutions in place.
In short, i just wanted to say there is no reason to speak about appeasement in this whole affair ( a word I've read way too much here)

"Americans, remember that others do not all share a love for a winner. Their inadequecies lead them to the failure's love for their fellow losers. Through luck and hard work America has become the greatest nation the world has ever seen, unquestioned in its leadership in the fields of science, industry, economics, and military strength. Have pity on the envious who will always think the worst, and leave them to wallow in their hate."

I hope you do not believe one word of the above quote. If the hate for America only had envy as its cause, how do you explain the surge of antiamericanism is so recent ? It's not like US dominance is 2 years old... How do you explain anti-americanism is stronger in Europe now than ever, while Europe is now on par economically with the US (one less reason to be envious) ?
Antiamericaism has many, many roots, and envy can be one of them for former empires disgruntled by their lost grandeur (France mostly). Envy is a pretty unsignificant root of antiamericanism worldwide, but to some arrogant Americans, it is impossible to hate America for any other reason than envy, since the country is soooo perfect.
I think the generally percieved American arrogance ~~helps people to hate your country more deeply once they start hating it~~ deepens the hate, even if doesn't start it (edit). If America lost this "we are the best and you are crap compared to us" attitude, the US would have much less hate to suffer from.

Just my 2 cents.

**Ironikinit** · February 13, 2003, 12:28

11 replies, one worth responding to.

Kropotkin, you're it.

I never claimed that Americans were smarter than anybody else, merely that it's a waste of time responding to rabid anti-Americans.

Sorry if I was unclear with this bit: "those who subscribe to outlandish, untested theories of government or theories proven by history to lead to disaster". I meant two different types of theories in an effort to cover more ground: Those that are untested and those that have been tried and failed.

You can tell Americans apart from the Taliban in a lot of ways. Do I need to go into this? I'm afraid if I do I'll just sound like a smartass.

So why are you starting a thread about something you're ignoring?

Again, the answer to this should be obvious. Have a look at the spam fest between DinoDoc and paiktis for a hint.

Eh, maybe not so reply worthy after all.

**Kropotkin** · February 13, 2003, 12:41

* I'm actually ignoring Dinodocs and Paitikis spamfests so I don't have a clue. Thus it's not obvious.

* If you're thinking about two "theories" you should a) say so b) also write out those two "theories".

* About the taliban-comparison; It should obviously be taken in the context of the rest of the sentence and the quote it's an answer to.

* If you don't think americans are "smarter" than other you shouldn't start the typical 'america is the greatest nation ever' rant. As you explicity says the US should use its own moral compass it seemed obvious to me that most of the rest should be more or less ignored.

As a side note I think it's worthwhile to take up something Spiffor mentioned. Take for example the Kyoto protocol, beforehand the US under its current administration didn't give a **** about the rest of the worlds opinion. Now, when the US needs support the rest of the world is supposed to give it.

Power might grow out of the barrel of a gun but international respect doesn't.

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