[23:24] %BigFree% ok, back to business
[23:24] %nbarclay% So did you get anywhere in discussions with OPD other than finding out we don't have a harbor yet?
[23:25] %BigFree% we knew that already
[23:25] %E_T% anyways, as we were telling OPD, we will be having several luxurues connected up relatively soon and will need customers for them
[23:25] %BigFree% he didn't have to say
[23:25] %nbarclay% Knew from the fact that trades were grayed out?
[23:26] %E_T% we actually don't know if you have a city that already has one or if you are even building one sometime soon
[23:26] %BigFree% We saw a Galley of yours near our coast and since we don't havbe a sea route yet, you must not have a harbor.
[23:26] %E_T% Yes, cant even try to trade with you
[23:27] %nbarclay% Would trades show up on your end if you don't know where our harbor is? I'm not sure how the mechanics of that work.
[23:27] %nbarclay% (With AIs, you pretty much always have their map by this point.)
[23:27] %E_T% Brb, need to have a smoke, too long after dinner and I didn't get one after OPD left
[23:27] %BigFree% If you canb trade with us, then we can trade with you, it works both ways
[23:28] %E_T% pathfinder ruotine needs an endpoint that it can route to
[23:28] %BigFree% As sson as we saw you Galley, a sea route was opened, but no harbor to connect to.
[23:29] * E_T is now known as E_T_outside_smoking
[23:29] %BigFree% If you had a harbor, as soon as you saw ours, a path would have been open
[23:30] %nbarclay% In any case, yes, we will need to build a harbor before we can start trading. The question is, is there a prospective trade that would make it worth our while to speed up that process.
[23:30] %BigFree% anyways, it is apparent that we could trade luxes.
[23:31] %nbarclay% I thought Lux was gone.
[23:31] %BigFree% we have extra luxes and you have large cities that need them
[23:31] %BigFree% LOL
[23:32] %nbarclay% How many luxuries do you have that you're in a position to trade right now?
[23:32] %BigFree% We could probably go one for one on the Luxes and then if we have extra's we could do other deals, most likely fo rtech and such.
[23:32] %BigFree% WE can get them linked up very soon, we have two right now,IIRC
[23:33] %BigFree% the other two, very soon
[23:33] %BigFree% depends on how fast you need them
[23:33] %BigFree% and what we would get in return
[23:34] %Trip-% so you mean you have 4 total?
[23:34] %BigFree% yes
[23:34] %Trip-% confusion :P
[23:34] %BigFree% back to the hole now
[23:34] %BigFree% what is so confusing
[23:35] %Trip-% [21:33] %BigFree% WE can get them linked up very soon, we have two right now,IIRC
[23:35] %Trip-% [21:34] %BigFree% the other two, very soon
[23:35] %BigFree% he asked what we have avaialble for trade "right now"
[23:35] %BigFree% so, two "right now"
[23:35] %BigFree% then the other two depending...
[23:36] %Trip-% chat with him, not me :P
[23:36] %BigFree% thta's what I said "back to the hole now"
[23:36] %nbarclay% Any thoughts on what you would want for the luxuries once we get them hooked up?
[23:37] %BigFree% well, like I said; one for one on the luxes till you have no more to offer, then we can trade the other lux(s) for techs and such; it's up for negotiating.
[23:37] %nbarclay% you get them hooked up
[23:37] %nbarclay% I mean
[23:37] %BigFree% right
[23:37] %BigFree% Iknew
[23:39] %BigFree% If you have two, we trade those straight up most likely. Then if you have no other luxes we can substitute gold/tech/other stuff for the trades.
[23:39] %BigFree% What would you offer for two luxeries?
[23:40] %E_T_outside_smoking% one thing that we are in the "decision crux" is how soon to connect up our extra luxes
[23:40] %nbarclay% At the moment, I don't think trading two would do us much good. Extra luxuries only matter if they let you change the luxury slider setting.
[23:41] %nbarclay% And in a GA, with big cities, each notch of the luxury slider is pretty big.
[23:41] %E_T_outside_smoking% as we have non-industrious workers and lots ou mountains to deal with, it take time and effort to get things done
[23:41] %E_T_outside_smoking% but if we know that we have a customer for the "goods", then we can look at expiditing thigs somewaht
[23:41] %BigFree% but,you GA willnot last forever
[23:42] * E_T_outside_smoking is now known as E_T_taking_trash_out
[23:42] %E_T_taking_trash_out% BRB
[23:43] %nbarclay% Agreed that the GA won't last forever. But keep in mind that we also have a timing question: how high a priority do we make a harbor?
[23:44] %BigFree% true, it's up to you on that; we can only offer what we have for right now and you can make a counter offe to see how important it is too your team.
[23:44] %Trip-% trade uranium for aluminum and rubber :P
[23:44] %BigFree% let's say we go straight up on two luxes for two luxes; how important is that to your team?
[23:45] %nbarclay% I think this is something I'll need to post to the team message board and see what our level of interest is. We'll also have to check what other civs on your continent have the same luxuries.
[23:45] %BigFree% then is your team willing to trade techs for the other 2 luxes?
[23:45] %BigFree% sure
[23:45] %BigFree% I can tell you now though
[23:46] %Trip-% "They would be insulted by this deal!"
[23:46] %nbarclay% Insulted by what deal?
[23:46] * E_T_taking_trash_out sets mode: +o Trip-
[23:46] * E_T_taking_trash_out sets mode: -o Trip-
[23:46] * E_T_taking_trash_out sets mode: -v Trip-
[23:46] %Trip-% that's always what the AI says :P
[23:46] %BigFree% LOL
[23:47] %BigFree% the AI is a Moron though, but that's why you get along with him I guess.
[23:47] %E_T_taking_trash_out% Trip, your here to observe
[23:47] %nbarclay% Tech-for-luxury deals work great for human players who have a nice lead over AIs.
[23:47] %nbarclay% But this game is a whole lot closer.
[23:47] %Trip-% the AI doesn't like vice versa though :P
[23:47] %BigFree% It is a close game
[23:48] %BigFree% each team will try to kockey for the most of their resources
[23:48] %nbarclay% Kockey?
[23:48] %BigFree% We would not blame you for that either
[23:48] %E_T_taking_trash_out% one moment
[23:48] %BigFree% *Jockey
[23:48] * E_T_taking_trash_out sets mode: +m
[23:48] * E_T_taking_trash_out sets mode: +v Trip-
[23:48] * E_T_taking_trash_out sets mode: -v Trip-
[23:48] * E_T_taking_trash_out sets mode: +v nbarclay
[23:48] * E_T_taking_trash_out sets mode: +v E_T_taking_trash_out
[23:49] * E_T_taking_trash_out sets mode: +v BigFree
[23:49] %E_T_taking_trash_out% there
[23:49] * E_T_taking_trash_out is now known as E_T
[23:49] %E_T% he can observe but not talk
[23:49] %nbarclay% I think this is complicated enough that I'll need to take it back to the team for discussion of what we might want to do.
[23:49] * Trip- has left #ptwtalks
[23:50] %BigFree% RP will try to get the most it can reasonably get for our resources, GS would be wise to do the same; no one can blame anyone for trying to do that.
[23:50] %nbarclay% Agreed. The real fun is trying to find overlap in our concepts of what is "reasonable."
[23:50] %BigFree% You have to take what the game mechanics allow you to take
[23:51] %BigFree% right
[23:51] %E_T% also, please remember that we have to work to get them available, so it's no little effort on our part, either
[23:51] %BigFree% that's the diplomacy model the AI cannot do the "right way"
[23:52] %BigFree% yes, he knows that we don't go to he far reaches of our Civ to hook up uneeded Luxes
[23:52] %nbarclay% I assume you'd be willing to take gold rather than techs if we can find common ground on the amount?
[23:52] %BigFree% but if we have a proposal on the table, we'll make it a priority
[23:53] %nbarclay% I understand about your problem of trying to figure out how big a priority to make hooking up luxuries for trading purposes.
[23:53] %BigFree% gold versus techs?? We'd be inclined to take techs, but if theres enough gold to buy one form someone else, then that's all the same to us.
[23:53] %E_T% or maybe a discount for the techs, in conjunction with the luxes
[23:54] %BigFree% right, we are flexible and would rather make a fair deal than try to rob you.
[23:54] %nbarclay% Frankly, after what happened with Feudalism, GS is going to be a LOI more reluctant to push the tech pace than we would have been.
[23:54] %nbarclay% We thought we had deals lined up in advance with GoW and ND.
[23:55] %nbarclay% ND pulled out because the deal hadn't gone through proper procedural channels, and ended up getting it from someone else.
[23:55] %nbarclay% You went for the cheap price from GoW.
[23:55] %BigFree% sounds like BS to me
[23:55] %E_T% we are traders at heart and want to have good relations with our customers, both now and in the future
[23:55] %nbarclay% Lego got it from someone else.
[23:55] %BigFree% BS on the ND part of the deal
[23:55] %nbarclay% And the whole thing was a total disaster for us. The tech ended up costing us several times what it did anyone else.
[23:56] %BigFree% you should sell to everyone at once or none at all perhaps
[23:56] %nbarclay% I can understand your desire to get the best deal, but there's such a thing as killing the goose that lays the golden egg, so to speak.
[23:56] %BigFree% agreed
[23:56] %E_T% we are sorry, but we did try to work on that, but were told that it was a final price
[23:56] %BigFree% yeah, i had heard that 200 was "final"
[23:57] %E_T% as we were paying other people (more than 1) for other tech, we just coudn't afford it at that time
[23:57] %nbarclay% According to the last posts to the GS board, 200 was final if you wanted the tech immediately.
[23:57] %BigFree% If we had know we could buy it from you at 75 gold, we would have.
[23:58] %BigFree% 10 turns later of course
[23:58] %E_T% we then looked elsewhere and found a beter price from GoW (who likely sold it to the others, too)
[23:58] %BigFree% yes, GoW is the ones who provbably whored your tech
[23:59] %nbarclay% If I'm remembering the cost correctly, 75 gold would have been less than 1/10 of what we paid to research it. To me, that seemed more like a joke than like a reasonable offer.
[23:59] %E_T% or even a little more sooner than 10 turns
[23:59] %E_T% well, GoW likely got that, 3 times
[23:59] %nbarclay% Especially since Togas worded it as if we needed to beat that price.
[23:59] %E_T% and they payed you what, 200
[23:59] %BigFree% It is really cheap, I was surprised, when i joined this game 6-7 weeks ago, that Techs were sold so cheaply
[00:00] %E_T% that has actually been GoW's fault
[00:00] %E_T% they are really whoring the tech and we still haven't found a way to beat them at it
[00:00] %BigFree% but when you have two Civs who hav a tech, and they oth want somnething for it, they are going to drive the prices down unless the cooperrate and fix the price.
[00:01] %BigFree% and when the price is fixed, you split the difference when people pay you for it.
[00:01] %E_T% we were actually the ones who had first started the 10 turn no resale clause, to try to keep GoW reigned in, but they still got around it
[00:02] %E_T% they would underbid quite a bit
[00:03] %BigFree% Would your team be interested in trading Maps?
[00:03] %E_T% and then we had to pay quite a bit for techs to get into the Middle ages and didn't get anything for Monarchy, which we put a lot of our effort into
[00:03] %E_T% yes, the maps will defiately be needed to get the lux trades going
[00:04] %nbarclay% We've already obtained a map of your continent. Vox sold it to us, and then turned around and used the gold to help pay for their attack on us.
[00:05] %BigFree% HAHA
[00:05] %E_T% it happens, we thought that they were fools to have started a war with you while they were still in despotism
[00:05] %BigFree% one of those laugh and cry at the same time comments
[00:06] %E_T% we didn't even understand why they didn't even want to get Monarchy from us for that, but we now know that they needed the cash for their war
[00:06] %nbarclay% I thought they were fools at first myself, but then I ran the numbers on troop support costs. It's actually not that bad a government for them, and they couldn't have afforded the time it would have taken to change governments.
[00:07] %E_T% true, but even with a few turns of anarchy, being in monarchy would have helped greatly
[00:08] %BigFree% I agree
[00:08] %nbarclay% Would it? Monarchy only provides free support for two units from towns size 6 and under. Despotism provides free support for four. (If I'm remembering right.)
[00:08] %BigFree% the commerce and shield in a GA are very noticble bewtween the two goverments
[00:09] %E_T% Yes, but you don't get the despotic reduction in sheilds
[00:09] %nbarclay% Do you have a map of Vox's territory?
[00:09] %E_T% or trade
[00:09] %BigFree% yes, we do
[00:09] %E_T% Yes, we got it about the time that the war started
[00:09] %E_T% we have seen your now cities
[00:09] %E_T% *new
[00:10] %BigFree% Inchon, Inchoff very creative
[00:10] %E_T% should have been Inchin, Inchout....
[00:11] %nbarclay% I assume you see the significance of the name Inchon?
[00:11] %E_T% I'm not naive...
[00:12] %nbarclay% It's not a question of naivity. It's a question of knowledge of history.
[00:12] %E_T% because you have royally screwed them...
[00:12] %E_T% On, I was thinking of something else, but yes
[00:13] %E_T% WWII
[00:13] %nbarclay% Korean war.
[00:13] %E_T% close, I'm not a war buff
[00:14] %BigFree% North invaded the South, right?
[00:14] %nbarclay% Right.
[00:14] %E_T% but I do now remember that they were loading and unloading almost on the same days
[00:14] %BigFree% I've heard about it, but have not read about it
[00:14] %E_T% first part of the war, IIRC
[00:14] %E_T% before they brought Macarther in to fight it
[00:15] %E_T% then they later fired him
[00:15] %nbarclay% The Inchon campaign was an amphibious landing behind North Korea's front lines.
[00:15] %nbarclay% MacArthur was the one who pulled off the Inchon landing.
[00:15] %nbarclay% But yes, he was fired later.
[00:15] %E_T% yes, that was it
[00:16] %E_T% yes, he wanted to Nuke China after they had come into the war
[00:16] %BigFree% he got fired cause he didn't have enough Luxes to satiate the people back home.
[00:17] %E_T% we figure that you're researching Chivalry
[00:17] %BigFree% I though *** was Nationalism...
[00:18] %E_T% for the war effort, If we get this lux deal hammered out, how about letting us have first crack at it?
[00:18] %E_T% we know that GoW is researching it and that if ND wasn't, they are now after they got Feudalism from GoW
[00:19] * E_T still doesn't know why GoW sold them that
[00:19] %nbarclay% Actually, we've had our research on hold since we got Feudalism, originally using gold to rush troops and now building up some gold we haven't decided what to do with yet.
[00:20] %E_T% not even a specialist doing 1 turn research?
[00:20] %nbarclay% (One of the quirks of Republic, especially with a big standing army, is that you can build up a big cash stockpile and then do a lot of research in a hurry instead of researching a little at a time.)
[00:20] %BigFree% right
[00:20] %nbarclay% What's the point in a specialist doing 1-turn research if you know you'll have the tech in under 40 turns?
[00:21] %E_T% true
[00:21] %BigFree% you use deficit spending, though you have a abnk to draw from
[00:21] %nbarclay% But I would advise against placing bets on our researching Chivalry ourselves rather than buying it.
[00:21] %BigFree% with the deficit being for that turn, not what is in the treasury
[00:22] %BigFree% so you will buy from GoW?
[00:22] %nbarclay% Right. Build up a reserve and then research at a deficit. That provides a little more flexibility.
[00:23] %nbarclay% I won't say more than that the possibility of our buying it from GoW does exist.
[00:23] %E_T% true, except you have to keep all of those people happy, too
[00:23] %BigFree% It does, it worke nicely in Civ3
[00:23] %nbarclay% Keeping track of where the luxury slider will have to be set is definitely part of the process.
[00:24] %E_T% well, we can try to help you with that part
[00:24] %nbarclay% For the right price?
[00:24] %E_T% one thing that we are curious about, is what your intentions towards Vox will be
[00:25] %E_T% we have heard that they are trying to talk pease with you
[00:25] %E_T% and we know that they will likely not be able to repeate themselves for a very long time
[00:26] %BigFree% ahh, finish them off.
[00:26] %E_T% if ever
[00:26] %BigFree% send them to Trp Land
[00:26] %BigFree% *Trip
[00:26] * E_T sets mode: -m
[00:26] %nbarclay% With the current tone on the GS discussion boards, if Vox survives, it is unlikely to be on our continent. I hope that won't upset RP too much.
[00:27] %E_T% they have been good business partners of ours
[00:27] %BigFree% we will be bummed about losing a trade partner, but you guys seem like you could fill in where they will leave off.
[00:28] %nbarclay% And they used the proceeds of their sales to you to attack us, forcing us to waste the better part of our GA to build up our military instead of for economic investment.
[00:28] %E_T% they have been good when it comes to trade talks and have given on a few things when we have asked
[00:28] %E_T% Yes, and we are sorry about that
[00:29] %E_T% we had worked out deals with them sometime in advance of the war and didn't see this comming
[00:29] %nbarclay% The real problem, though, is that after their earlier treachery, what could they say that would assure us they won't try it again if an opportunity arises?
[00:30] %E_T% Part of our talks were ongoing when they first had established that city on our contenant, in old Luxia