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  • a realpolitik team/civ?

    OK, PLEASE NOTE THAT:

    I am thinking about PERHAPS starting such a team, if there appears to be interest in it... if not, I'll probably join Togas' team (unless its full).

    With that issue aside... the idea for a team I'd like to start if people are interested...

    ---------------------------

    A civ that is neither dedicated to warmongering, nor to pacifism - for both are signs of weakness.... a civ that is neither self-righteous, nor thoroughly evil - both which would merely alienate possible friends...

    Rather a civ which aspires to the height of "pagan" civic virtue... to do what is necessary (even if it be nasty or cruel) to secure the safety and prosperity of our people. We will not attach any positive sentiment to the execution of violent conflicts such as the blood-thirsty warmongers. However, we will be completely willing to use violence when it is in our interests. And we will be prepared to be far more cruel in war than the pacifists would be.

    A civ which will seek to possess both the means and the will to violently assault our enemies, but will be consciously sparing in the application of those means. A civ which is humane in its preference for peace, yet perfectly willing to be extraordinarily cruel when the use of force needs to be applied.

    We would not back down from those who threaten or assault us, but would remain cooperative with those who are willing to be cooperative with us.

    All things in foreign policy would be judged by an un-wavering set of cold calculations of the interests of our people. The notions of "private virtue" which self-righteous civs will seek to attach to their policies we will not allow to cloud our judgement in such matters.

    As for all other matters of our society (the whole gamit of domestic issues), we most certainly would be more attached to notions of private virtue than in foreign policy (where a detached and even machiavellian realpolitik is necessary)... the moralities and ideas which shape domestic policy could very well be bizarrely diverse and we could fight, as any democracy, over which policies to pursue in this area.... I would hope for a wide diversity of people willing to role-play in this manner (even in ways that may CONTRADICT our game-mandated interests at times - just for fun).

    In this manner, our domestic policy would be open to FAR FAR MORE role play of internal division than foreign policy. Foreign policy would be an area where, while there would certainly be differences of opinion of what "is in the interests of our people", all agree that war is neither inherently good, nor inherently bad... simply an option among other options. A particularly dangerous option that should only be taken after much consideration, yes, but not an option we are afraid to take when the situation calls for it.

    Both the coldly realpolitik nature of such a foreign policy and the raucus and divisive nature of domestic policy could very well be open to a great deal of role-play... something I'd think which would be encouraged.

    Personally, here are my own civ preferences (though I certainly don't presume to decide for others):

    OLD CIVS:
    Greeks (great traits, decent UU) - UU is a bit early, but VERY useful
    Rome (good traits, good UU) - may be taken (by Ninot?), but would be perfectly matched to the idea of this team/civ
    Germany (good traits, good UU)
    Babylon (great traits, decent UU)
    France (great traits, crappy UU)
    India (great traits, crappy UU)
    Persia (great traits, good UU) - awesome, but I don't like playing them (they'll probably be taken anyway)

    NEW CIVS:
    Carthage (great traits, good UU)
    Koreans (great traits, crappy UU - though well timed)
    Ottomons (great traits, mediocre UU)
    Spanish (great traits, mediocre UU)

    IF (and likely only if) we know we're playing on a huge map with lots of land mass.... then expansionist civs are a FAR better than otherwise... thus:

    England (great 2nd trait, crappy UU - though well-timed)
    America (great 2nd trait, crappy UU)
    Vikings (mediocre 2nd trait, good UU)
    Russia (good 2nd trait, crappy UU)
    Long-time poster on Apolyton and WePlayCiv
    Consul of Apolyton from the 1st Civ3 Inter-Site Democracy Game (ISDG)
    7th President of Apolyton in the 1st Civ3 Democracy Game

  • #2
    Oh, and as for how I look at the civ traits:

    Industrious: good (was definately the best trait before the bug with commerical was fixed... now one of the best)
    Commerical: good (my personal favorite after they fixed the bug with it)
    Scientific: good (my other favorite, but it's hardly necessary)
    Religious: good
    Militaristic: mediocre
    Expansionistic: crappy (unless on huge map with lots of open land)

    Commercial is the only one that can really make or break you, but it only does so in one scenario (you have a huge empire). If you DO have a huge empire, though, it's certainly far more powerful than ANY other civ trait by far... the 25% reduction in corruption is simply staggering across so many cities.

    So, basically, you pick commercial if you think you're going to be really big and thus believe you'll actually need it more than the other civ traits (which help more at getting you to becoming really big). That's admittedly a hard call to make... since you don't know for sure how successful you will be before the game starts... especially when playing against other humans...
    Long-time poster on Apolyton and WePlayCiv
    Consul of Apolyton from the 1st Civ3 Inter-Site Democracy Game (ISDG)
    7th President of Apolyton in the 1st Civ3 Democracy Game

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    • #3
      tsk tsk tsk... not even considering my Roman civ as a choice?
      Resident Filipina Lady Boy Expert.

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      • #4
        if you would wish, i could modify some ideals for my civ and we can merge as Rome.

        perhaps include the Simpsons team?
        Resident Filipina Lady Boy Expert.

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        • #5
          That's worth considering

          As for the Simpsons team... I'm a huge fan of the show, I just can't figure which character from the Simpons I'd most want to emulate... there are just too many amusing options
          Long-time poster on Apolyton and WePlayCiv
          Consul of Apolyton from the 1st Civ3 Inter-Site Democracy Game (ISDG)
          7th President of Apolyton in the 1st Civ3 Democracy Game

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          • #6
            application

            I would like to join this team, arnelos. assuming enough people are interested. I think this team would be middle-of-the-road enough to be a real success.
            "The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country." -- Abraham Lincoln

            "Generations to come will scarce believe that such a one as this ever, in flesh and blood, walked upon this earth." -- Albert Einstein, in regards to Mohandis Gandhi

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            • #7
              Arnelos,

              All of this could be incorporated into any civ that isn't specifically a peaceloving or conquest civ.

              This sounds very much like my approach to the game ... do what is best for your civ without value judgement. It also has a sort of cool detachment and Machiavellian flavor that is excellent for this sort of game.

              If you don't get enough interest, join up with the Roleplay team and we'll certainly do something like this.

              --Togas
              Greatest Moments in ISDG chat:"(12/02/2003) <notyoueither> the moon is blue. hell is cold. quote me, but i agree with ET. "
              Member of the Mercenary Team in the Civ 4 Team Democracy Game.
              Former Consul for the Apolyton C3C Intersite Tournament Team.
              Heir to the lost throne of Spain of the Roleplay Team in the PTW Democracy Multiplayer Team Game.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Togas

                If you don't get enough interest, join up with the Roleplay team and we'll certainly do something like this.

                --Togas
                this is rapidly starting to look like the best idea

                doesnt seem like there are enough people to make more than 4 REAL teams to me.
                Resident Filipina Lady Boy Expert.

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                • #9
                  I like the sounds of this team, although I don't have PTW yet. Supposed to be getting it today but am not sure about when it's coming to my city. Either this or Togas's team sound really good to me. I like the warmongering team too, but sense that they'll find more vigilant human opponents who KNOW they're coming after them, instead of for peace.

                  The Carthaginians are my favorite by far...
                  Former Supreme Military Commander of the Democratic Apolyton States, Term 8
                  Former Chairman of Apolyton Labor Party

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Togas
                    Arnelos,

                    All of this could be incorporated into any civ that isn't specifically a peaceloving or conquest civ.

                    This sounds very much like my approach to the game ... do what is best for your civ without value judgement. It also has a sort of cool detachment and Machiavellian flavor that is excellent for this sort of game.

                    If you don't get enough interest, join up with the Roleplay team and we'll certainly do something like this.

                    --Togas
                    Togas,

                    Yeah, it looks like several people (myself included) are sitting on the fence between forming/joining this team or joining yours... Our conceptions for strategy (coldly realpolitik, retaining the capability to be humane or cruel depending on the situation) and roleplay (as diverse and open-ended as possible) are similar. The one point of difference thusfar seems to be that you've proposed that your role-playing team will actually play as a despotism under despotism (etc, etc, etc.), whereas I don't think I'm suggesting we'd role-play to that extent.

                    We'll see, though... role-playing to that level could be a a TON of fun. I'm still thinking about it. As you said, the decision will be dependent upon whether a large enough interest exists in this slightly different idea independent of yours... if not, we merge them.
                    Long-time poster on Apolyton and WePlayCiv
                    Consul of Apolyton from the 1st Civ3 Inter-Site Democracy Game (ISDG)
                    7th President of Apolyton in the 1st Civ3 Democracy Game

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Arnelos
                      The one point of difference thusfar seems to be that you've proposed that your role-playing team will actually play as a despotism under despotism (etc, etc, etc.), whereas I don't think I'm suggesting we'd role-play to that extent.
                      that is what I am worried about. I don't see how, if you intend to really roleplay a despot or a monarchy, you would even need other team members. None or our opinions will carry any weight. I'm not sure this would even hold my interest as it is the process that I am interested in... certainly not pretending I am a serf.

                      Unless, that is, I am mistaken about the way the team will be set up
                      "The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country." -- Abraham Lincoln

                      "Generations to come will scarce believe that such a one as this ever, in flesh and blood, walked upon this earth." -- Albert Einstein, in regards to Mohandis Gandhi

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        -Arnelos, I'd really like to be part of this team, and it fits my evolutionary insights on behavior- Any sort of behavior can be the most adaptive, but in a given situation a cold calculation of as many factors as possible is the best thing to do. Since we are playing a Civ3 game, the precise calculation is almost possible, and debates on the "Ultimate" decision can be real fun. The No-Bull**** attitude is the best one when playing any game, so count me in.
                        Save the rainforests!
                        Join the us today and say NO to CIV'ers chopping jungles

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ruby_maser
                          I don't see how, if you intend to really roleplay a despot or a monarchy, you would even need other team members. None or our opinions will carry any weight. I'm not sure this would even hold my interest as it is the process that I am interested in... certainly not pretending I am a serf.

                          Unless, that is, I am mistaken about the way the team will be set up
                          Yeah, what you're describing isn't what I had in mind. I envision all of the players as the nobles, governors, advisors, generals, wisemen, priests, etc of the tribe. The "serfs" are the workers in the game that we order around.

                          The team's emphasis is on roleplay, but it still needs to be fun or why join it? I'd better post more details to the thread so that other people don't get the wrong idea.

                          --Togas
                          Greatest Moments in ISDG chat:"(12/02/2003) <notyoueither> the moon is blue. hell is cold. quote me, but i agree with ET. "
                          Member of the Mercenary Team in the Civ 4 Team Democracy Game.
                          Former Consul for the Apolyton C3C Intersite Tournament Team.
                          Heir to the lost throne of Spain of the Roleplay Team in the PTW Democracy Multiplayer Team Game.

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                          • #14
                            re:

                            Originally posted by Togas
                            Yeah, what you're describing isn't what I had in mind. I envision all of the players as the nobles, governors, advisors, generals, wisemen, priests, etc of the tribe.--Togas
                            thanks for the clarification. then, I think it would be a lot of fun try
                            "The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country." -- Abraham Lincoln

                            "Generations to come will scarce believe that such a one as this ever, in flesh and blood, walked upon this earth." -- Albert Einstein, in regards to Mohandis Gandhi

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