That's already been discussed. For the record, IMO, the amount of the defense budget is FAR MORE important than what it is as a percentage of GDP. The latter only measures how well a country can (presumably) afford the level of spending it has. In terms of calculating military strength in absolute or relative terms, it is totally meaningless.Originally posted by connorkimbro
The amount of the defense budget really doesn't matter for ****. What percent the defense budget is of the overall GDP is what OUGHT to be compared.
And does anyone know what kind of results you get from that calculation? I'll give ya a hint, the US is nowhere NEAR the top.
Again, it comes down to how much do you ultimately need. Dan and CG argue that there are ulterior motives behind the US expenditure, others may not. It still doesn't change the fact that Saudi Arabia at 50% of GDP (even though it's really 14.5%) still couldn't hold a candle to the US at 1% (even though it's really 3-4%)
The above post is why people should read threads before they post.
Hmm, yes, you're right, sorry.
It still doesn't change the fact that Saudi Arabia at 50% of GDP (even though it's really 14.5%) still couldn't hold a candle to the US at 1% (even though it's really 3-4%)
Ok. I thought the crux of the argument was something else entirely, so, nevermind. Thanks for filling me in on what i should have read in the first place, though.
-connorkimbro
"We're losing the war on AIDS. And drugs. And poverty. And terror. But we sure took it to those Nazis. Man, those were the days."
-theonion.com
Well excessive is relative after all...
I mean given some of the % GDP levels mentioned by Kontiki, the US at 4% could be deemed as very low - though many of the higher rates are by non democratic countries and Russia's is skewed because they have the security forces of the largest country to maintain with a completely tanked economy!
But it is about perceived threat - which these days is almost entirely unconventional. Does the US need such a large conventional force to tackle terrorism? I don't think so...
Personally I think the US military is still stuck in the past in a conventional sense - there just are no conventional armies around that could even hold a candle to even a fraction of the US'. Yet the US maintains more aircraft carriers than the rest of the World many times over. Yet they still try to push conventional Dinosaurs through the defence budget like that moronic plan to develop and deploy those gigantic SP guns earlier this year that we talked about! Well at least they saw the sense in that one eh?
Still, it is their money and 4% of GDP isn't that much, and while they do that we can get on with spending our money on important stuff such as a decent health or education system instead...
Just as long as they don't think they own the place...
"History is a lie that has been honed like a weapon by people who have suppressed the truth. Centuries from now, your own history will also be suppressed."
MOBIUS, you're such an American apologist.
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
One Submarine today cost 1 billion, 1 Aircraft Carrier cost between 2 and 3 billion, so if you just build one Carrier and Sub., you have just spent 4 billion of the 61.6 for the year.Originally posted by Kontiki
FISCAL YEAR 2002 — BUDGET AUTHORITY
(Dollars in Billions)
Military Personnel $82.3
Operations and Maintenance $125.7
Procurement $61.6
Research and Development $47.4
Military Construction $5.9
Family Housing $4.1
Other $1.9
In other words, the US is spending approximately 57% on ops, maintenance and procurement. That's over $187 billion.
It has been reported that during the Clinton years we did not buy any new Planes, Ships, Tanks etc. The items that were produces during these year was authorized in prior years before Clinton.
Originally posted by DanS
MOBIUS, you're such an American apologist.
What's it to be? One minute I'm Anti American and the next I'm an American Apologist...
People are always leaping to conclusions...
"History is a lie that has been honed like a weapon by people who have suppressed the truth. Centuries from now, your own history will also be suppressed."
Lonestar would like to point out that he is a member of an all-volunteer Navy, and as such the USN has to do a lot more to keep us worker bees happy.
For instance, I suspect our base salary, Health Care, dental, housing allowance, "BAS"(food), "immient danger pay", "Sea pay", "Relective re-enlistment bonus", Morale Welfare and Recreation is all wwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaayyyyyy higher than the case nations with conscription armies fork out.
Oh yeah. Forgot 100% payed College tuition.
And you wonder why the American defense budget is so large....
Which is not to say I wouldn't mind a pay raise.
With such viral bias, you're opinion is thus rendered useless. -Shrapnel12, on my "bias" against the SS.
I've never understood how God could expect his creatures to pick the one true religion by faith — it strikes me as a sloppy way to run a universe.
i wonder which country gets the most bang for their buck? isreal? our(usa) budget seemed bloated and inefficient given that spending has stayed roughly the same but they'e cut back quite a lot in the 90s i thought...
Eschewing obfuscation and transcending conformity since 1982. Embrace the flux.
Personally I think the US military is still stuck in the past in a conventional sense - there just are no conventional armies around that could even hold a candle to even a fraction of the US'. Yet the US maintains more aircraft carriers than the rest of the World many times over.
Well what happens if we sit on our hands and say we're big enough. Suddenly someone else begins challenging our military lead (China, perhaps). Constant updating is needed to keep ahead by a relatively same margin (though the Chinese are rapidly catching up).
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
Israels powerful army doesnt seem to be proportional to the defense budget, only 9 billions.
I bet they spend even more.
Periodista : A proposito del escudo de la fe, Elisa, a mí me sorprendía Reutemann diciendo que estaba dispuesto a enfrentarse con el mismísimo demonio (Menem) y después terminó bajándose de la candidatura. Ahí parece que fuera ganando el demonio.
Elisa Carrio: No, porque si usted lee bien el Génesis dice que la mujer pisará la serpiente.
How about percentage of the government budget. When past and future wars are factored in, we spend more than half our government budget on war.Originally posted by Kontiki
Here's the previous top 25 in percentage of GDP - the %ages are from 2000, so there won't be a perfect match:
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
Well, they also get billions in military aid from the US. My understanding is that we give them something like 3 billion in aid every year that they must spend on military procurements from US contractors. Could be wrong, just something I heard somewhere.
Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/DaveDaDouche
Read my seldom updated blog where I talk to myself: http://davedadouche.blogspot.com/
"When past and future wars are factored in, we spend more than half our government budget on war."
Don't know where you get that sound-bite, Che. Even if you only consider discretionary spending plus interest on the debt as the "government budget", you don't get there. This doesn't even consider Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and other "mandatory" spending in the mix.
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
Hey, look who's NOT on the top 25 list!
Iraq $1.4
North Korea $1.3
Libya $1.2
Suria $0.8
Cuba $0.7
Yugoslavia $0.5
Do you still insist that these countries could be a threat to the US?
I wonder what Singapore does with $4.3BN, considering it's so tiny...
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."
George Orwell
Suria?
What the hell is Suria?
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
Some made-up Greek country, I imagine.Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Suria?
What the hell is Suria?
With such viral bias, you're opinion is thus rendered useless. -Shrapnel12, on my "bias" against the SS.
I've never understood how God could expect his creatures to pick the one true religion by faith — it strikes me as a sloppy way to run a universe.
I'm disappointed that nobody has said this yet.
USA!!! USA!!!
Do not take anything I say seriously. It's just the Internet. It's not real life.
It goes without saying Felch.
I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio
Don't forget...Originally posted by DinoDoc
It goes without saying Felch.
"USA: The Arsenal of Democracy."
With such viral bias, you're opinion is thus rendered useless. -Shrapnel12, on my "bias" against the SS.
I've never understood how God could expect his creatures to pick the one true religion by faith — it strikes me as a sloppy way to run a universe.
Unfortunatelyl Arsenal have lost their last three competitive games, all due to dodgy Seaman.Originally posted by Lonestar
Don't forget...
"USA: The Arsenal of Democracy."
Capitalisation - The difference between helping your uncle Jack off a horse, and helping your uncle jack off a horse
Grammar - The difference between knowing your $hit, and knowing you're $hit.
Spelling - The difference between being literate, and being Dinner.
I'm mildly insulted.
Seaman Apprentice Lonestar.
With such viral bias, you're opinion is thus rendered useless. -Shrapnel12, on my "bias" against the SS.
I've never understood how God could expect his creatures to pick the one true religion by faith — it strikes me as a sloppy way to run a universe.
Capitalisation - The difference between helping your uncle Jack off a horse, and helping your uncle jack off a horse
Grammar - The difference between knowing your $hit, and knowing you're $hit.
Spelling - The difference between being literate, and being Dinner.
Okay, you're right. Currently past, present, and future wars only account for 46% of the budget.Originally posted by DanS
"When past and future wars are factored in, we spend more than half our government budget on war."
Don't know where you get that sound-bite, Che. Even if you only consider discretionary spending plus interest on the debt as the "government budget", you don't get there. This doesn't even consider Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and other "mandatory" spending in the mix.
The War Resisters' League.
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
Please tell me that this isn't based on the study that was discredited here months ago. Because if it is, I would put much credence into the rest of thier figures.For those who sought revenge, an “eye-for-an-eye” has been met and surpassed, with estimates of up to 4,000 innocent civilians killed in Afghanistan along with unknown numbers of Taliban or Al Qaeda fighters.
I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio
Che: OK, now that we've straightened out your numbers, let's move on to the rhetoric. Not including the vast majority of social programs in these calculations makes the conclusion meaningless in anything other than a soundbite. Certainly not illuminating.
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
Can anyone find data on the size of each country's military industry (annual sales in BN$)? It would be interesting to see who are the biggest net exporters and who are the biggest net importers of weapons. Then it wouldn't be difficult to see who the real warmongers are.
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."
George Orwell
Just because Europeans have a fetish for fighting wars in their own countries doesn't mean we have to. We would rather fight wars over seas then here at home.Originally posted by Saint Marcus
you don't need your army for defense. who's going to invade you? the cold war is over.
Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We are evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that. --Saul Tigh
Saint Marcus, I think you are fooled because we call it the Defense Department. There is an old saying in sport, the best defense is a good offense.
http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en
heh heh
europe is fooled by our defence department
maybe they are fooled by UN peacekeepers also?
maybe we should rename the defense department, the peace department to help releive their confusion
Jon Miller
Jon Miller-
I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
Our military budgest isn't low at all considering how we need to have troops ready to fight the War of Terror, we are on the verge of war with Iraq, and we want to keep far ahead of potential competitors such as China.
"I'm moving to the Left" - Lancer
"I imagine the neighbors on your right are estatic." - Slowwhand
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