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  • German court rules Nazi reprisal executions justified

    My how things change.

    In WWII, partisans attacked off duty German soldiers who responded with reprisal killings of prisoners of war. Today, a German court held that the reprisals were justified in a case involving an SS Major in Italy. Story below.

    We have repeatedly heard arguments here (mainly the ME threads) that partisan attacks "remain" OK if they are directed to an occupying power. Of course, reprisal attacks are not OK. Otherwise the flow of Palesinian blood would be a river.

    Well, beginning July 1, even partisan attacks will be illegal under the new ICC. I quote Article 8(2)(a)(xi):

    For the purpose of this Statute, "war crimes" means:

    (a) Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, namely, any of the following acts against persons or property protected under the provisions of the relevant Geneva Convention:

    (XI) Killing or wounding treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army;
    CyberGnu, what do you think? Should Arafat call a halt?

    The AP story:

    HAMBURG, Germany (AP) - Citing orders from Adolf Hitler, a 93-year-old former SS major on Wednesday defended the killing of Italian prisoners during World War II as a legitimate wartime act.

    Speaking outside the courtroom, Friedrich Engel, who is charged with 59 counts of murder, told The Associated Press that Nazi forces were provoked by Italian partisans and said he believed at the time that the massacre was justified.

    The Hamburg state court upheld that argument Wednesday, saying rules of war in 1944 did not explicitly outlaw reprisal killings. But the murder case against the Hamburg retiree hinges on the prosecution's allegation that Engel ordered a massacre on May 19, 1944, that was especially cruel.

    The Italian captives allegedly were bound in pairs and forced to walk onto a plank over an open grave, where they were shot. The victims then fell into the pit, on top of freshly killed bodies.


    Engel is charged with ordering the shootings at the Turchino Pass outside Genoa, where he headed an SS intelligence unit charged with obtaining information about internal enemies to Hitler.

    The massacre was in retaliation for an attack on a movie theater that killed five German soldiers. Nearly 60 years later, a court led by a judge born in the year of the massacre is trying to establish the facts in one of Germany's last Nazi war crimes trials.

    Engel has told the court he was present and approved the list of prisoners from Genoa's Marassi jail to be shot. But he has denied the charges of murder, saying he shot no one and that the German navy ordered the reprisals.

    Engel, a neatly dressed white-haired man who walks with a cane, spoke firmly and without apparent emotion as he sat outside the wood-paneled courtroom where he has been on trial since May 7.

    Anger flickered, though, when he denounced the partisans who fought Nazi occupying forces in Italy. "We Germans were provoked with treacherous, underhanded attacks," he said. "The partisans were not honest fighters."

    Engel said he was among officials who attended a meeting in Florence led by a Nazi general that laid out Germany's reprisal policy in Italy after a March 23, 1944, bombing killed 32 German policemen in Rome.

    The meeting discussed an order by Hitler that 10 Italians should die for every German killed, Engel said.

    "The Americans were advancing. An order was handed down to redouble efforts to fight attacks against Germans," he said. "It was up to me to carry out this order from Hitler and my superiors."

    When the Genoa shootings were planned a few weeks later, "I was in a position where I had to view it as legitimate," Engel said.

    But he said he soon came to doubt that the killings "were right," and he ignored orders a month later for another reprisal shooting.

    Prosecutors say the Genoa massacre was particularly gruesome, justifying murder charges.

    One witness has testified that Engel "clearly had the job of supervising the shootings" and at one point ordered a lieutenant to shoot a captive lying in the grave but not yet dead. The witness, Walter Emig, who was in the German navy stationed in Genoa, has described Engel as an "ice-cold dog."

    Hamburg authorities investigated Engel in 1969 for his role in Nazi executions in Italy. The case was dropped the same year for reasons that aren't known because the files were lost.

    But an Italian military court convicted him in absentia in 1999 and sentenced him to life for war crimes connected to a total of 246 deaths.

    Italy pressed for Engel's trial after a German television documentary last year drew attention to his case and the fact that he had been living for decades in Hamburg.

    A verdict is expected next month, though defense efforts to obtain autopsy results from Italy about the massacre victims could lead to a delay.
    Last edited by Ned; June 26, 2002, 22:59.
    http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

  • #2
    Citing orders from Adolf Hitler, a 93-year-old former SS major on Wednesday defended the killing of Italian prisoners during World War II as a legitimate wartime act.


    where's the puke smilie when you really need it.

    Comment


    • #3
      Are reprisal attacks also war crimes under ICC regulations?

      If so, then I am fine with this. Violence of any kind should be treated as wrong.

      If not, then it is quite unfair.
      Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
      "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

      Comment


      • #4
        WHAT!?! Maybe that court is under the control of former Nazis?
        Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

        Comment


        • #5
          people under german occupation had the god given right to bloody murder, chop off limps, mayhem, kill, slaughter, massacre and decapitate as many bloody nazis as they wanted to.

          if this is considered a *pinky voice* "violent act", well too bad.


          Now if this is comperable with Israel, it is a matter of discussion.

          I think the defining difference is that the attacks by palestinian activists (sic!) are conducted against civilians. it is a good thing not to forhet that (unless you think that they're responsible since it is a democracy) - which too has its loopholes IMO.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Lorizael
            Are reprisal attacks also war crimes under ICC regulations?

            If so, then I am fine with this. Violence of any kind should be treated as wrong.

            If not, then it is quite unfair.
            Lorizael, Yes, there are several provisions that would make reprisals a war crime.
            http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by paiktis22

              I think the defining difference is that the attacks by palestinian activists (sic!) are conducted against civilians. it is a good thing not to forhet that (unless you think that they're responsible since it is a democracy) - which too has its loopholes IMO.
              I think, though, that even "treacherous" attacks on enemy soldiers will be a war crime under the ICC.

              Read bit in the story where the SS Major voice rose in anger when he talked about the partisan attacks on German troops.
              http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by paiktis22
                people under german occupation had the god given right to bloody murder, chop off limps, mayhem, kill, slaughter, massacre and decapitate as many bloody nazis as they wanted to.

                if this is considered a *pinky voice* "violent act", well too bad.


                Now if this is comperable with Israel, it is a matter of discussion.

                I think the defining difference is that the attacks by palestinian activists (sic!) are conducted against civilians. it is a good thing not to forhet that (unless you think that they're responsible since it is a democracy) - which too has its loopholes IMO.
                Why, paiktis, why? Violence only begets more violence. Causing pain is only a short term solution. In the long run it causes more problems than were there to begin with.

                Did German occupation end because of the violent acts of partisans?
                Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
                "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Lorizael
                  Did German occupation end because of the violent acts of partisans?
                  In both Northern Italy and Greece, yes.
                  Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    if you'er americans or english you wont understand cause your coutnry was not under gemrna ocvcupation.


                    still i can manage some apptetie to explain just a few basics as i see them


                    _your country is occupied, you fight to free it (if america gets occupied and you dont, well its your country i have no say over that)


                    _guerilla fighting also helped the allies by kicking sh!t out of nazis

                    _serbia greece got freed just by guerilla fighting in WW2.


                    also it is despicable that a nazi should ask for justice.

                    we are here minding our own business.

                    they come, we push them back. they come again, they capture us.

                    famine starts along with brutality


                    we do guerilla fighting and start killing nazis and destroying their infastructure.

                    and then the nazis seize men and start executing them without discrimination


                    and someone is trying to tell me that the nazis that were not killed then are still alive?

                    i find THAT hard to believe.


                    O PARTIZANO O BELLA CIAO

                    better singing that replying to that crap.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Sometimes you have to fight to be a man.
                      Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Well...If you say it's ok to kill Nazis, but the Nazis can't fight back...Then a Palestinian could also say it's okay to kill Jews, but the Jews can't fight back...

                        That logic doesn't work, at least not in our current world.

                        Sure, maybe the Germans did pull back from those areas, but they were LOSING the war anyways, and I suppose they had no chance to retake them, nor much of a will to want to do so at the moment.

                        But then again, if by violent actions you chase away Israeli soldiers, Sharon will just send the tanks rolling in a few hours later. While he's not fighting a war on several fronts, he can afford to do so.

                        I'm NOT saying Sharon = Hitler, Nazis = Israelis, certainly not, but the analogy is useful, in this PARTICULAR case. I'm not giving my view on the ME conflict here.

                        But look, until both actions (violent uprisings, violent reprisals) are outlawed, you will be trapped in a never ending circle of violence, in most situations other than WWII.
                        DULCE BELLUM INEXPERTIS

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          It's silly to say that we expected the Nazis not to fight back. Hoever, the targetting of non-combatants is a crime.
                          Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I wonder when those russian partisans are going get blame for killing hundreds of women and children in villages that weren't secured by soldiers. I think it would be a damn time, because their close relatives are still alive. Oh, we were on the wrong side.
                            In da butt.
                            "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                            THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                            "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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                            • #15
                              Which partisans?
                              Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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