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MOD: The Ancient Mediterranean MOD 0.2.2

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  • You can upgrade units once you become more technologically advanced.
    My websites:
    - Ancient History Encyclopedia
    - The Ancient Mediterranean Mod
    - What is my search ranking?

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    • True buts thats well into the last age.

      Arrian is not suggesting we can just build barracks anywhere, he is suggesting to give the barracks attribute to some of the other "FP"s that are in the game.
      *"Winning is still the goal, and we cannot win if we lose (gawd, that was brilliant - you can quote me on that if you want. And con - I don't want to see that in your sig."- Beta

      Comment


      • Yes, I know. You can get to Standing Military, build barracks, and upgrade units there. But of course that doesn't come until 1/2 way through the 3rd age.

        ...

        As for my government comparison:

        City-States wins, HANDS DOWN.

        It offers lower overall corruption, and of course it's communal corruption, so it allows me to build up areas that were heretofore useless. I could imagine Republic being slightly better if my empire was a certain perfect shape, and I had a leader handy to rush the Roman Forum small wonder. Otherwise...

        City-States is like a combination of the best bits of Republic and Communism from the stock game. Communal corruption, commerce bonus, and cash rushing. I'm kicking myself for not realizing how awesome CS was before... all that time I wasted using Monarchy!

        If anyone is interested, I can post the save tonight, so you can compare for yourselves.

        -Arrian
        grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

        The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

        Comment


        • Please do

          Thats the save where you can make the decision correct? And then do the comparison.
          *"Winning is still the goal, and we cannot win if we lose (gawd, that was brilliant - you can quote me on that if you want. And con - I don't want to see that in your sig."- Beta

          Comment


          • I'll post it tonight, Con. All you have to do is press enter, deal with a (Median, I think) request for a world map trade, and then select your new government.

            I didn't even bother trying some of the others (theocracy, thing law, merchant oligarchy).

            FYI, not that it matters unless you actually play forward, but I'm at war with the Kolchis (center north, brown).

            -Arrian
            grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

            The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

            Comment


            • All of the communal goverments should be better than comparable central goverments. C3C unbalanced the comunal goverments, probably in an attemp to keep the AI from destroying itself in the epic game.

              Justus II put alot of effort into rebalancing the goverments for 2.5i. Some are suppose to be better for certain situations than others.
              [c3c] 1.22(f?)
              For better barbarians, add NoAIPatrol=0 to conquests.ini (see this thread )

              Comment


              • Yeah, I know. They realized that communism sucked and a) the humans didn't use it; and b) the AI did, to its doom. So they tried to fix that, and overcorrected. Then they added Fascism, a new and improved AI self-destruct mode.

                The real problem is the combo of very low communal corruption (can't help that) and the trade bonus (and, to an extent, the ability to rush buy things with that extra cash). It's uberpowerful, IMO.

                It might be a good idea to further reduce (or even eliminated entirely) the unit support for that government.

                -Arrian
                Last edited by Arrian; November 30, 2004, 16:11.
                grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                Comment


                • Wow, great to see so much activity here! I generally just follow the forums at CFC and CDG, but thanks to a nudge from Watorrey I see that this is where the action is!

                  The communal problem is the biggest thing we had to deal with (in terms of governments). Because the communal corruption basically got better as the empire got bigger, about the only thing I could use to counteract it was unit support. From my tests, City States should be ideal for a spread-out yet peaceful empire. If you have a large military (3 or more units per city/town) unit support should actually drive City State into the red. That, and the War Weariness (City States has max WW) should make it hard to be a war monger in that government. We also tried to offset it by allowing a second FP for Republic and Empire, but not for City State or Oligarchy.

                  Republic generally did best in most cases, although at 2xOCN or more, Empire definitely showed the advantage. If you have a small military (1-2 units/city), then City States is competitive with Republic, if you include the extra FP for Republic. Republic (and Empire) also get the faster worker rate.

                  As for the early governments, don't overlook Thing Law, or Theocracy. You can reach them much earlier (with the slowed tech pace, up to 100 turns sooner than Monarchy), and they both allow for improved worker speed, which is a big boost early. Thing Law also removes the despotism penalty. It's great for agricutural civs or peaceful builders, who want to get good pop growth or build decent settler factories. Theocracy is actually ideal for Religious civs, who get a head start on that tech path, and a short anarchy. They get sped-up workers and can support a huge early army. Especially for Industrious civs, due to the anarchy-worker bug, all workers (slave/normal/ Industrious) are considered to have speed one during Anarchy (and Despotism in this mod). But hitting Thing Law and/or Theocracy unlock the industrious bonus.

                  Anyway, I'm glad to get some more feedback, I told Watorrey numerous times, I knew my government tests might be skewed by my play style (generally builder/trader early, then go for a small, higher-tech military when I'm ready to conquer). I tried some tests on civs with heavier military, but until you get some in-game data, it's hard to tell. If you'd like to post that save, I'd be glad to run the numbers through my comparison spreadsheet I used in testing.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Theseus
                    Can I possibly see the map and starting locations for this mod, without going all the way through installing it?

                    Thanks.
                    This is a map of starting locations for the Ancient Med Large map, I mostly worked with that one. It is missing the last civ added, the Massagetae, who are in the upper NE corner east of the Caspian Sea.
                    Attached Files

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Justus II
                      Wow, great to see so much activity here! I generally just follow the forums at CFC and CDG, but thanks to a nudge from Watorrey I see that this is where the action is!

                      The communal problem is the biggest thing we had to deal with (in terms of governments). Because the communal corruption basically got better as the empire got bigger, about the only thing I could use to counteract it was unit support. From my tests, City States should be ideal for a spread-out yet peaceful empire. If you have a large military (3 or more units per city/town) unit support should actually drive City State into the red. That, and the War Weariness (City States has max WW) should make it hard to be a war monger in that government. We also tried to offset it by allowing a second FP for Republic and Empire, but not for City State or Oligarchy.

                      Republic generally did best in most cases, although at 2xOCN or more, Empire definitely showed the advantage. If you have a small military (1-2 units/city), then City States is competitive with Republic, if you include the extra FP for Republic. Republic (and Empire) also get the faster worker rate.

                      As for the early governments, don't overlook Thing Law, or Theocracy. You can reach them much earlier (with the slowed tech pace, up to 100 turns sooner than Monarchy), and they both allow for improved worker speed, which is a big boost early. Thing Law also removes the despotism penalty. It's great for agricutural civs or peaceful builders, who want to get good pop growth or build decent settler factories. Theocracy is actually ideal for Religious civs, who get a head start on that tech path, and a short anarchy. They get sped-up workers and can support a huge early army. Especially for Industrious civs, due to the anarchy-worker bug, all workers (slave/normal/ Industrious) are considered to have speed one during Anarchy (and Despotism in this mod). But hitting Thing Law and/or Theocracy unlock the industrious bonus.

                      Anyway, I'm glad to get some more feedback, I told Watorrey numerous times, I knew my government tests might be skewed by my play style (generally builder/trader early, then go for a small, higher-tech military when I'm ready to conquer). I tried some tests on civs with heavier military, but until you get some in-game data, it's hard to tell. If you'd like to post that save, I'd be glad to run the numbers through my comparison spreadsheet I used in testing.
                      In an hour or two, I'll post the save and you can compare Republic and City States for the empire I have going. I just have to get home, walk the dog, and eat first

                      I found that CS resulted in significantly lower corruption (using the F1 figures for lost commerce). The ability to build up my holdings in Phoenicia, Assyria and now Kolchia (?) - which were at or near max corruption under Monarchy & Republic - was a big factor as well.

                      Anyway, I'll post the save in a few... later,

                      -Arrian
                      grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                      The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Arrian


                        Because, strategically, that's... um... not very smart. It's a waste. If the option to upgrade is there, I will use it! If the intent of the mod is to emphasize replacement instead of upgrading, you should either:

                        1) increase upgrade cost such that it becomes more cost-effective to build new units from scratch; or
                        2) break the upgrade chains periodically.

                        Not that I'd be particularly pleased with that, personally, but hey, it's your Mod.

                        The result of the current setup is that I will end up rotating my troops around in order to get them upgraded w/o leaving myself defenseless during the upgrade process.

                        Luckily for me, most of my units at this point are horsemen, and thus can move 8 tiles/turn on my roads. Upgrading my spears to pikes will be more annoying.

                        -Arrian
                        In addition to the Romans, at least 3 other civs get a civ-specific wonder that gives the 'vet units' flag (Macedon, Persia, Scythia). Iberia had it at one point as well, but it was dropped IIRC. So, if the wonder is built closer to the front, it gives a second option.

                        One other way of adding a limited option pre-barracks would be to modify one of the army-related small wonders (Military Academy, for example) to make it a vet-units small wonder, and make it available during the second age. At least then you would have a second city to upgrade at. I was thinking of Mil Academy, because the ability to cash-rush armies is pretty overpowered in C3C anyway, this would remove that option, but give you something else of value.

                        Comment


                        • So the Military Academy would do what then?

                          Just give you vet units????

                          I wonder (no pun intended) if it would even be worth building then ??
                          *"Winning is still the goal, and we cannot win if we lose (gawd, that was brilliant - you can quote me on that if you want. And con - I don't want to see that in your sig."- Beta

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by conmcb25
                            So the Military Academy would do what then?

                            Just give you vet units????

                            I wonder (no pun intended) if it would even be worth building then ??
                            Well, it would allow vet units, and upgrades, an age and a half before any other non-capital city. That's a long time, and could be well worth the cost. Of course, the cost could be adjusted as well, it's just a suggestion to provide a (limited, and expensive) option to supplement the palace.

                            Comment


                            • The save

                              Here it is...

                              I would have had it up an hour ago, but our DSL was acting up.

                              -Arrian
                              Attached Files
                              grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                              The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                              Comment


                              • I think the best choice for the "vet units" flag would be the Parthenon. It's supposed to be like a second palace - your civ's secondary capital. So it makes a certain amount of intuitive sense as well.

                                The military academy comes rather late, IIRC, but it too would make sense.

                                -Arrian
                                grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                                The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                                Comment

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