MOD: The Ancient Mediterranean MOD 0.2.2

[thamis]

If your labels are messed up, make sure that you have the latest version of CIV3 / PTW / C3C and the latest version of TAM. If not, check which version you have, and find the correct LABELS???.TXT file in the TAM\TEXT folder. ??? corresponds to the version of CIV3 that you have. Rename that file to LABELS.TXT after deleting the original LABELS.TXT.

Which map are you referring to? There's a lot less desert than today in the maps already. Also, the game spans from 8000 BC to 500 AD, therefore a compromise has to be met.

[Leonidas]

Great work

[thamis]

I've updated the EXE so that it installs to the conquests\conquests folder.

[thamis]

Updated to 2.4!

[conmcb25]

This is probably a dumb question but is this the mod that comes with the Conquests Civ content?

[thamis]

Yes, it is, only that the Conquests one is an "extra-lite" version. This one is the full version.

[conmcb25]

Originally posted by thamis
Yes, it is, only that the Conquests one is an "extra-lite" version. This one is the full version.

OK, I have a question.

In the Conquests version you can not enter mountains.

Has that been corrected here?

My son loves this one and he and I want to do a LAN game, but if you cant get into mountains you can accesss the resources and Lux's so it kind of screws things up.

[thamis]

It's intended that you cannot enter mountains with certain units. Only archer units and workers can enter mountains. Therefore, you can obtain all the resources (with workers), but mountains pose a natural barrier (unless you built a road across it).

In the ancient times mountains were off limits for armies, and they still are today.

[conmcb25]

In the Conquests version, I couldn't even get workers into mountains.

I tried it with my son several times.

Ill try your version though and see if it works.

[thamis]

Version 2.5 has been finished by Watorrey!

[conmcb25]

Great

And am I correct in the assumption that since the first post now says "Version 2.5" in the self extract version that the first post is updated?

If you have 2.4 installed how do you install 2.5? Does the self extractor just install over the previous version?

Thanks, this is my favorite mod and my 14 year old loves it too. He and I do LAN games, where we ally and gang up on the AI. Not much of a challenge for me but the 14 year old loves doing it

[thamis]

Just install it over the existing version. An automatic installer will come soon.

[watorrey]

It is completely self contained and won't overwrite any of the 2.4 files and will work from the conquests OR the scenarios folder.

CHANGES FROM TAM 2.4:

- ANIMATED LEADERHEADS!!!
- New civ for a total of 31 playable: Massagetae
- Will work from either ..\Conquests\Conquests OR ..\Conquests\Scenarios\ folder
- Includes additional Conquests difficulty levels
- Removed building prerequisites and maintenance from civ specific wonders
- Redistributed starting techs according to civ abilities
- 1st tier techs above Ancient Age cannot be traded
- Random maps do not show place names
- Random maps deal with marsh/swamp better
- Macedonia & Persia have unit producing wonders
- Completely rebalanced goverments
- Most buildings and techs now have unique civilopedia & city screen images
- Tech rate bug workaround for premade maps
- Enslaved worker graphics
- Settlers, Gothic Settlers, Scouts no longer require support.
- Build both chariot & horseman class units (no forced upgrade to horseman)
- Many new flavor units
- More accurate civilopedia
- No pink civs!

[thamis]

Update to the main page. Please donate for the bandwidth that's being used by this huge mod.

[conmcb25]

OK ANother question.

I have Conquests 1.22, I self extracted to the //..... conquests/conquests folder.

And I CAN NOT start a MP game?

I can see the rest of the conquests and the other scenarios, but TAM doesn't show up in the MP screens.

Im playing over a LAN with my son so its not some lkind of internet or connectivity issue.

HELP! My 14 year old loves this scenario and wants to MP it with his old man

Thanks

[watorrey]

I just did a quick test and it looks like you have to move or copy (your choice) the TAM 2.5 folder and the 2.5i .biq files over to the conquests\scenarios folder for MP to work.

Apparently the MP engine doesn't look in the conquests\conquests folder for MP options.

[conmcb25]

Ok so I have to move everything over

I tried just moving over the .biqs just like the conquests .biqs but that didn't work

OK Ill try that and let you know if it works.

Is there somewhere that describes the different maps (.biqs)?

Id like to chose the best for an MP without trial and error if possible.

Does one of the Mediterranean maps have only 8 civs? Or is it conducive to just 8 civs?

[watorrey]

the TAM 2.5 folder needs to be in the same folder as the biqs... i'll fix that in a patch when i get enough things that need fixing.

I don't have alot of experience with MP play. Keep in mind the fertile crescent is a standard map and the med lg is obviously a large map. You can set the # of ai's for each when you start. You can also play on a random map of any size you choose.

[conmcb25]

Thanks for the help

Is the med (regular) map a standard size map?

[watorrey]

sorry, bad syntax on my part...

Fertile Crescent maps = standard 100 x 100 map w/ 14 civs available

Mediterranean Large = 140 x 140 map w/ 31 civs available

Random map (The Ancient Mediterranean) = whatever size you choose and the # of civs available are dependant on map size (as in the epic game)

[Theseus]

Can I possibly see the map and starting locations for this mod, without going all the way through installing it?

Thanks.

[watorrey]

maybe if someone has a 25 inch monitor and runs it in 2048x1536 resolution they can post a zoomed out screenshot?

[conmcb25]

OK here is what I would like to do but I dont have a clue how.

Get a smaller map of Western Europe.

Put 8 Civs on it

And use the TAM rules/mods

This is so a hiostorical map could be optimized for multiplayer.

If that works I might try some other sections of the map.

Any ideas on how to do this?

Anyone know where I can find europe maps in chuncks?

[watorrey]

You should read up on modding and get comfortable working with the editor first.

Basically, find a map you like and import it into the random map biq rules. You'll have to replace all the resources if you want them accurate or you could just let the editor randomize them for you.

Maps can be found at many of the fan sites.

Keep in mind there are lots of things that can go wrong so you should have a good understanding of how it all works.

[Arrian]

I've been playing this mod for a few days now, and just completed a full game with it. Here are my comments/criticisms:

1) I really like the first 3 ages. The tech tree, the wonders, the different civs' special wonders, different resources & luxuries, etc.

2) The fourth age is a tad spare, to say the least.

3) I honestly think the unit balance is a little screwy - attack is WAY stronger than defense (especially once you have bombard units, wow).

4) When playing on random maps, which is my personal favorite, the lack of an ability to trade over ocean (even with navigation + exploration) sorta hurts. And only one ship can traverse ocean tiles w/o sinking (galliot). I managed an intercontinental invasion nonetheless, but I lost 15 out of 22 loaded ships (mostly the big ones that carry 4 units). Ouch.

Doh! Gotta run, more later.

-Arrian

[watorrey]

It's good to get any feedback You're the first.

1) The tech tree didn't change from 2.3 to 2.5 much. We changed some of the attributes but essentially it's the same. How did the tech pace feel to you?

2) I don't think thamis has any plans to expand the 4th age. Depending on the tech pace, it could be made more expensive, thus filling in turns if needed.

3) The emphasis on attackers is deliberate. It gives the game a whole different feel and is just not what one expects after being use to the epic game. Plus they are needed to deal with the barbarians.

4) The difficulty of traversing ocean tiles is deliberate as well. Although it isn't a big deal on the premade maps, it forces you to work at it a little on random maps. Not a bad thing, we think.

[Arrian]

1) Difficult to say... I played on a standard random map, Monarch level (my usual settings), as the 1 civ that gets 3 traits but no special wonder (messagate?), and got a free settler from a hut, coupled with a solid starting spot. It may not be very typical. But it "felt" just fine... it felt like it was taking much longer, which is the point I would imagine.

2) I'm psyched about the first 3, so the 4th isn't that crucial, but it really feels odd after the others. In a perfect world, I'd like to see it fleshed out.

3) I understand it's deliberate - clearly so - but I think it goes too far in favor of offense. More on that below.

4) It would help if Navigation allowed ocean-going trade, though, because for random maps it just doesn't make much sense (to me) that you can *never* trade with another continent. Intercontinent invasion I managed, once I realized galliots were the only way - just build a lot of 'em, and leave the armies empty until you get across.

Maybe I should play pangeas...

...

I started a new game last night on the fertile crescent map. I played Babylon on Monarch.

The first thing I noticed was with the other civs set to random, many popped up in odd locations. Rome was due north of Babylon - which sucked, by the way! , the Huns appeared twice - once in Syria, once in Arabia, and the English were waaaaay up in the NE corner, on the Caspian Sea, I think. I still haven't found Carthage, so I assume they're in the northwest of the map. Nubia, Egypt, Persia, and one other (Styria?) looked to be in their proper spots. No one popped up in Turkey.

The second thing I noticed was that Rome & I exploded out in front in tech. Yummy rivers.

The third thing I noticed was that the AI is actually building lots of workers and improving its terrain I'm not sure they're doing it properly, mind you, but it's way better than stock.

The fourth thing I noticed was that Guard Cavalry unit the Persians get from their special wonder is HARDCORE. I officially hate the Persians. Fought 'em off, though, despite temporarily losing 2 cities. Lucky for me the AI doesn't know what it's doing.

...

I'm having trouble adjusting to the different city size caps. I typically use wider-than-recommended spacing in the stock game (a mixture of c-xxx-c, c-xxxx-c, and c-xx-c). Now, with the cities capped at size 8 instead of 12 for a loooong time, I find that c-xxx-c is far too wide. I'm wasting tiles all over the place. I need to drop down to c-xx-c.

I haven't really explored the governments fully. I made a snap judgement that the best path is despot -> Monarchy -> Republic. Empire if needed later - haven't tried that out yet. Theology seems like it would destroy my shot at a tech lead. Thing Law seems like Monarchy, but harder to have an army. City States... not sure, may have to try that one.

...

Some other random thoughts/feedback:

1) Is it possible to allow Imperial Highways to provide the production bonus of railroads without unlimited movement? If so, why not go with a 1/12 movement (roads being 1/4), instead of unlimited?

2) Are you sure catapults should have a range of 2 tiles, like artillery? They're REALLY powerful.

3) Back to the attack vs. defense thing:

For a very long time, the best defender available is a spearman - 2.4.1, +1hp. Attackers, on the other hand, ramp up quickly to be much more powerful. For the slowmovers, that's ok - you can just make sure you have a lot of attackers yourself and kill theirs before they can attack a city of yours (or, if invading, just understand you're gonna lose a bunch of spears in the process). It's the fastmovers that are a problem, IMO. Now we're talking about units that can hit cities directly (w/o stopping inside the defender's territory, and thus being subject to counterattack). It's ok with chariots and horsemen (4 and 5 attack, respectively), but it starts getting ugly with elite horsemen (7 attack - special unit, I know) and anything better (the aforementioned Persian unit comes to mind). The Human player in particular can utterly rape the AI with that type of advantage. Heck, even with plain 'ole horsemen, if you mass a bunch of 'em.

-Arrian

[thamis]

Rome shouldn't appear in the Ferticle Crescent map at all.

Attack vs defence is intentional to enable both players and AI to take over a wealking civ more easily. Get left behind and die.

The worst thing that can happen to a civ game is a siege war where nobody wins.

[watorrey]

I'm gonna have to look into the randomized starts on the premade maps, that shouldn't have happened. If it's a mistake i made, it'll release a patch asap. If it's some glitch in the editor > biq settings, i'll post a warning.

Ocean trade just isn't gonna happen. It goes against the spirit of the mod. It just needs to be considered an additional challenge.

There are many aspects of TAM that make you rethink your strategy from the epic game. That is one of its appealing traits. City size, offensive power, and goverments are several of these.

Railroads (imperial roads) are hardcoded in the game. It's the one aspect i dislike about it but nothing we can do.

I'll look into whether catapults are meant to be 2 tiles range or not... might be another mistake, might not.

The human player advantage over the AI, as was explained to me once... the human is supose to beat up on the AI Although there are testimonails about how well balanced TAM is, i personally feel it is just an illusion because it is so *different*. We tried to maintain that illusion when working on 2.5. The freebie mounted units (Persia, Macedon) do have a chance at new stats

FYI: Tech pace and barbarian activity was tweaked for the large map. We didn't do much 2.5 testing on the standard Fertile Crescent map. Also, Goverments were rebalanced to try and deal with the overpowering communal trait introduced in C3C. It's almost bugged in favor of the player as is.

[Arrian]

Ok, I'll shut up about the ocean trade thing. I can live with it, no problemo. It is, after all, an ancient age mod. I can play Pangea random maps or the maps that came with the mod. The more I think about it, the more it seems I was off-base. You guys are right on this one.

Attack/Defense - you guys make the mod, I just play it. I've had my say. I respectfully disagree, Thamis, that it's more fun if the attacker has such an advantage.

Persian special unit - it has, IIRC, a 9 (NINE!!) attack factor. This is something that shows up really early on. Why not bring it in line with other civ's beefed-up horseman units (7 attack)? Just a thought. It would still eat spears for lunch.

Hmm, I haven't played any of the communal governments yet. Perhaps I should try them out next time.

I'm glad you are paying attention to this thread. I like the give 'n take.

-Arrian