The French corner : Joan or Napoleon or Louis XIV

[Alanus]

Originally posted by siredgar
Haha, nobody is voting for Louis XIV anymore! =)

It seems that you REALLY don't like Louis XIV. What's wrong ? Did he ruin one of your ancestors ?

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Assur
PS: Charlemagne not known

Jesus Christ. Charlemagne, not known? Aargh!. I learned about him from just taking a basic western civ course. Sigh. basic history.

[Alanus]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel

Jesus Christ. Charlemagne, not known? Aargh!. I learned about him from just taking a basic western civ course. Sigh. basic history.

I'm glad to notice that the world is not limited to North America, in some American people's mind.

[August Borms]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel

Jesus Christ. Charlemagne, not known? Aargh!. I learned about him from just taking a basic western civ course. Sigh. basic history.

Actually I was referring to siredgar's post ( "clovis: not known, not French; charlemagne: ditto") but I guess my English isn't good enough to make myself understandable all the time

BTW, according to our family tree I'm even a descendant of him

[Coracle]

Originally posted by siredgar
Haha, nobody is voting for Louis XIV anymore! =)

He also smelled bad like all those Frenchies in the 18th century.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Alanus


I'm glad to notice that the world is not limited to North America, in some American people's mind.

What are you talking about, Charlemagne united the peoples of North America in the Holy American Empire in the 9th Century.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Assur


Actually I was referring to siredgar's post ( "clovis: not known, not French; charlemagne: ditto") but I guess my English isn't good enough to make myself understandable all the time

I figured that's what you meant. Unfortunately I agree, that many people don't know anything about history.

Originally posted by Assur
BTW, according to our family tree I'm even a descendant of him

Wow, that is very cool Assur. Very cool. According to my family tree, I'm only descended from poor English and Swedish people, who fled their own countries, quite boring.

[Spiffor]

I'm not surprised that Napoleon wins the poll, but I'm surprised that Louis XIV / De Gaulle haven't any more voices. Do only 3 people here know they made great achievments for France (as well as bad achievments, but, oh well )

[KrazyHorse]

Not even one person comments on my pithy observation? For shame.

[Alanus]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel

What are you talking about, Charlemagne united the peoples of North America in the Holy American Empire in the 9th Century.

Just to say that your knowledge is not limited to the names of the US Presidents, and that you seem to have some historical culture .

I doubt sometimes that American know what's happening outside the US when I read USA Today : note that it is usually the only paper distributed in hotels when I travel to the US, so maybe not the best choice.

[siredgar]

Originally posted by Alanus
It seems that you REALLY don't like Louis XIV. What's wrong ? Did he ruin one of your ancestors ?

No, but I'm glad to not see any more additional votes for him and a couple of votes appearing for Joan of Arc. I sincerely believe that without her, there may not have been the French nation we see today. It could have been more of a fragmented assembly of states for a long period of time.

[Alanus]

Originally posted by siredgar


... Joan of Arc. I sincerely believe that without her, there may not have been the French nation we see today. It could have been more of a fragmented assembly of states for a long period of time.

I can see your point and agree to some extent. But in this case, Joan is a Leader (in Civ3 sense), not THE leader/king/emperor of the civilization.

[siredgar]

Do you believe that the people who:


1. Overthrew one of the most lavish monarchies in history to start the French Revolution.

2. Gave the Americans the Statue of LIBERTY, the greatest symbol of freedom.

and

3. Created a firmly socialist economy based on liberty, equality, and brotherhood.


should be represented by a king or an emperor?

[Spiffor]

Siredgar :
France can be ruled by a king or an emperor. Simply because in ca. 1020 years, monarchy lasted 850 years or so, empire 30 years or so (Napoleon + Napoleon 3), and the Republic less than 140 years. True, the French achievments in matters of liberty are good, but the French achievments in matters of despotism do match (absolute monarchy being the first modern despotism ever, with a good administration to relay efficiently the whims of the king anywhere)

[siredgar]

Well, then you've answered my question.

[Fresno]

I voted Louis XIV (sorry siredgar).

The French leader should represent all the components which made up the French people, that is, Germanic, Roman, and Celtic. Charlemagne and Clovis both were Frankish kings, but don't forget that the Frankish were a germanic people. Their language was a bit like Dutch or German today. Vercingetorix on the other hand would only represent the celtic part.

I don't want Napoleon in. He destroyed the Dutch republic, and established a monarchy. I still hate him for that

I'm not fond of Louis XIV either, because he was responsible for the oppression of the Huguenots. On the other hand, his cultural influence was really huge, also outside France. I read both Washington and St. Petersburgh were influenced by the plan of Versailles.

You can't say that of Charles de Gaulle... and I don't really like to see too many modern leaders in the game.

[Ribannah]

Gimme Thierry la Fronde!

[Alanus]

Originally posted by Ribannah
Gimme Thierry la Fronde!

LOL (Mort de rire)

What about Astérix ?

[Gangerolf]

Napoleon!

[Kramerman]

Originally posted by Stuie


Uh....
Joan of Arc (default from Firaxis) - burned at the stake.
Napoleon I - defeated by Wellington, exiled.
Louis XIV - wore dresses.
Charles de Gaulle - forced to resign after civil unrest.
Vercingetorix - defeated by Caesar.
Clovis
Charlemagne

So that leaves Clovis and Charlemagne if you're not selecting "loosers".

hmmmm. Interesting. All the French leaders seem to be losers, except for Charlemaigne and Clovis. Which is interesting because they were significantly German. Im going to change my vote from Napoleon (who is a really cool loser) to the French suck and I dont care about them.

But really, Joan of Arc as the French leader, give me a break. Why not Cardinal Richelieu
or better yet, Dar Tanion

I like the earlier idea of Joan being a French great leader, but not THE French leader.

[Adagio]

Joan should defently stay...she's cute And since history isn't what I'm interested in, I only know Joan and Napoleon...And Napoleon is a guy

[Coracle]

Originally posted by ADG . . .
And since history isn't what I'm interested in. . .

Hey, you and Firaxis both!

Why not replace Joan's head with one of Lee Lee Sobieski?


BTW, De Gaulle hated America and was another ungrateful jealous Frenchie.

[Fresno]

BTW, De Gaulle hated America

In that case, I'd like to change my vote to De Gaulle

[Kramerman]

BTW, De Gaulle hated America and was another ungrateful jealous Frenchie.

Aint that the truth!
I saw a special on PBS about that and how Roosevelt (The American President that i have the most respect for and I think would be a good alternative American leader int he game, while on that subject) completely despised de Gaulle. And he wasnt the only one, Churchill, who I also admire greatly, also disliked him, mostly due to his ungreatful aditude (de Gaulle built his public image after the end of the war in Europe as the savior of France).
It was, after all, America and Britain (and Canada too)who saved France's a$$. [see simpsons quote on next post ]

In that case, I'd like to change my vote to De Gaulle

Hey Fresno, I take offense to that comment. By the way, what does your signature line say, i cant read it because its in some form of European speak. Just curious.

[Kramerman]

The Simpsons "Trillion Dollar Bill" episode (I only remember the words only roughly, so dont expect accuracy)-

" '....[President Truman] And through the Marshall Plan I present this one trillion dollar bill to help rebuild our allies who fought so poorly and surrendered so readillY....I leave it in the Hands of Montgumery Burns, our richest and therefore most trust worthy citizen to deliver it...'
-Mr. Burns supposed to deliver it by plane but steals it-

'....[frenchman, presumed to be de Gaulle] Where is the American money, it should be here by now.'
'[some other European leader] Well, should we declare war for this insult"
'[de Gaulle again] No- lets just act snooty to the Americans from now on-' [all laugh with that French laugh] "

[Spiffor]

Most Americans don't understand de Gaulle, thinking he was just an ungrateful ass. That's wrong. De Gaulle was primarily concerned by French independance, and tried to restore France's greatness, in a world where European powers were passé. This explains he financed an independant nuclaear project, rather than taking the American one with Amerrican conditions. That explains why he rejected an "overnational" Europe.

This will of independance pushed him to show the US aren't an absolute leader. I know it's hard to see from the west side of the Atlantic, but the US acted in their way, giving orders to the Euros, with minimal concessions.

This leadership was unbearable for De Gaulle... That's why he left NATO. However, France never quit the Atlantic Alliance, which means : if the US (or any ally) is attacked, France will declare war to the attacking country. The only difference is that there aren't any American bases on teh French territory, and French keep leadership on their troops. During the Cuba crisis, when the world was on the verge of destruction, De Gaulle insured Kennedy he'll be on his side.

You'll tell this still makes him an arrogant, ungrateful ass. But you Americans, who fought dearly for your independance, know how important this is. For France, acquiring independance from the homogeneous US didn't need any bloodshed, just some words and money.

[sabrewolf]

imho nap should be in... but otherwise there would have been too few female leaders (i also think, lenin would be a funny russian leader ) and jeanne's hairstyle in industrial ages is just... cute

[Kramerman]

Yeah
Id say she's pretty good looking, for a CGI .

Imagine, if she wasn't in the game, we'd be stuck with just Cathrine and Elizabeth . For that reason I guess id change my vote to retain Joan, even though its against my better historical judgment .

kman

[sabrewolf]

Originally posted by Kramerman
Hey Fresno, I take offense to that comment. By the way, what does your signature line say, i cant read it because its in some form of European speak. Just curious.

hm, i don't speak dutch, but i can try a part of it :

"De gemiddelde Oranjeklant heeft het IQ van een half ons plankton en wuift toch wel naar alles wat beweegt." - Youp van 't Hek
"the average something dutch(?) has the IQ of half a plancton (you know, these single-cell-thingies ) and ........... at everything that moves"

... oh well... the french one is easier:

"L'Amérique? C'est révolution de la barbarie à la décadence, sans toucher la culture." - Georges Clemenceau
"America? It's the revolution of barbarianism to decadence, without touching the culture"

... uhm... correct me, if i'm wrong

[sabrewolf]

Originally posted by Kramerman
Yeah
Id say she's pretty good looking, for a CGI .

Imagine, if she wasn't in the game, we'd be stuck with just Cathrine and Elizabeth . For that reason I guess id change my vote to retain Joan, even though its against my better historical judgment .

kman

you're forgetting cleo... she is always written about as the most beautiful women in that time...

and i guess cathy was in her younger years a pretty russian chick, while liz can't have ever looked good with that face