The French corner : Joan or Napoleon or Louis XIV

[Alanus]

So Firaxis has selected Joan of Arc to be the leader of the French. Poor little shepherdess who was burned as heretic !

As always the choice of civ leaders generates a debate, so let's debate on Joan vs. Napoleon or others.

Napoleon I (Buonaparte, the little Corsican) is the default French leader in CTP.
He put Europe in fire during 20 years in the early 19e century and was eventually defeated in Waterloo (Belgium) in 1815 by the British and the Prussians. In the mean time, he conquered almost all Europe (except for Great-Britain, but nobody did since William the Conqueror in 1066). Quite a good candidate for a civ leader, even if not necessarily the nicest guy on earth. Anyway, except for the Britts who named one of their stations with the name of a defeat (Waterloo ), there have been a lot significant progress of the French civilization during his reign and some benefits are still lasting.

Louis XIV (le Roi Soleil, king 1643-1715) is the default French leader in Civ2.
He is certainly the most famous of all the kings of France and you all know the Versailles Palace that was built under his leadership. He was The Absolut Monarch of all the French history. Obviously there were many wars during his reign, but I suppose that the slaughtery have been less concentrated in time than during the Napoleon's period. Also a good candidate for a civ leader.

Now, what's left for Joan of Arc (la Pucelle - Virgin- d'Orleans 1412-1431). OK she is a Saint (since 1920). OK under her leadership, the Crown of France was saved and she defeated the English, thus allowing the poor coward Charles VII to be the King of France. But she did not govern any kingdom or empire, she did not conquer any territory. So why select her as a civ leader. Not to mention that she is now used as a herald by the French nationalist party (not the kind of people I would recommend) of whom we have heard too much recently during the President's election.

So what do you think ? Other candidates could be :

- Charles de Gaulle, leader for the free France during WWII and president from 1958 to 1968
- Vergincetorix, prince of the Gauls (72 BC - 46 BC) who was defeated by Julius Ceasar at Alesia
- Clovis, first king of the Francs (465-511)
- Charlemagne (Carolus Magnus) king of the Francs (768-814) and emperor of the Western empire (800-814)

- and others, we have plenty ...

So, what would be your choice ?

[siredgar]

Louis XIV: A narcissistic pig who spent a lot of money on his stupid projects and wars:

http://collections.ic.gc.ca/placentia/louxiv.htm

CDG: Not a terrible choice, but he didn't have as great an impact on French history as Joan of Arc or Napoleon. His leadership was brief, too.

Vergincetorix: Not that many people know about him. He lost to the Romans anyhow. Also, he was the leader of the Gauls not the French.

Clovis: Again not known, not "French".

Charlemagne: Ditto.

I prefer Napoleon, but I like Joan, too.

[Alanus]

FYI :

Clovis : he is supposed to be the first king of France : the "Francs" are definitely the first French.

Charlemagne : he came after Clovis, so ditto.

[August Borms]

Napoleon ofcourse.

PS: Charlemagne not known

[Coracle]

You know that Clovis is the name of Mayor Quimby's beer-swilling brother who ran over Snowball I??


I changed to Joan to Napoleon months ago and downloaded new heads.

[TheBigTurkey]

Nappy, cuz their GA (taking over all of Europe) was under him. Plus, Louis dressed like a woman. I'd rather have Jeanne than him.

[Mr. President]

Robespierre.

[Alanus]

Robespierre ?

He was guillotined and Napoleon took over, first as Consul, then as Emperor.

Don't select loosers

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Alanus
Robespierre ?

He was guillotined and Napoleon took over, first as Consul, then as Emperor.

Don't select loosers

Uh....
Joan of Arc (default from Firaxis) - burned at the stake.
Napoleon I - defeated by Wellington, exiled.
Louis XIV - wore dresses.
Charles de Gaulle - forced to resign after civil unrest.
Vercingetorix - defeated by Caesar.
Clovis
Charlemagne

So that leaves Clovis and Charlemagne if you're not selecting "loosers".

[Alanus]

OK, "loosers" was not the appropriate word. Or else nobody would be selectable (The rise and fall of the xxx empire).

Robespierre did nothing but terror, cutting heads, and fortunately not long.

Napoleon, though defeated, has been the master of Europe during 20 years.

Louis XIV : It is not because you laught at the way is was dressed that he was a looser. His reign was one of the longest in the history of the French kingdom and ended when he died in his bed

[Alanus]

I forgot about "le grand Charles" :

He has made the History of France between 1940 and 1968, created a new constitution (the 5th French constitution). We gave his name to the largest international airport of France, there is a "General Charles de Gaulle" avenue in each city, town, village in France. In Paris, the largest square, where the Arch of Triumph - errected by Napoleon - stands, is named "Charles de Gaulle".

OK he retired at 78 after a democratic public poll, when France was in a messy situation (May 1968), but the whole world was messy during the same period. And that's democracy. Anyway he died 2 years after and he got national funerals.

Not really the kind of character I would call a looser.

[Jethro83]

Straight up:

NAPOLEON

Though there's a good case for Louis XIV, Charles de Gaulle and Charlemagne. But I still go with Napoleon.

[Spiffor]

Some history bits in a French point of view

De Gaulle :
For the French, Charles de Gaulle is a kind of national hero, a father of the Republic. He's considered as the first resistor to the German oppression during WW2 (he broadcasted his call for resistance the day of the French defeat). He represented free France to the other countries, and was the first French governor after WW2 but retired early (1946) because he didn't wanted to compromise himself with the treachery of negociation between parties.
He came back in 1958 to "save" the Republic from a coup due to the Algeria war. He promoted a new constitution, where the power ws centred on the President and not on the Parliament. He reigned between 1958 and 1969 and shared almost none of his power. But what pleases is the style : he didn't hesitate to say "get lost" to someone who disturbed him (ministers, journalists, foreign heads of state). He also acted for the independance of France, by developing our own atomic force and getting out of NATO (France remains in the Atlantic Alliance and will defend western countries in case of an attack, but its troops are only directed by French). He was the president during the economic boom, and it's possible to say that De Gaulle his responsible for France being in the Top 5 countries.
He didn't retired because of general unrest : in France, May 68 ended by a huge demonstration (1 million people) supporting him. He retired one year later, because one of his plebiscit-referendum wasn't good for him (he used referendums to see how much the French liked him, he always told he would quit if the referendum wasn't good for him... he did)
Basically, htere was a kind of Golden Age during his reign (a small one, but still), so he applies for being the French ruler, at least in the point of view of French people.

Louis XIV :
A megalomaniac and such. But still, he clearly rationalized the Franch state, by implenting an efficient bureacracy for the time. He was a work-addict (as much as a control freak), and spent whole days at his desk, which was pretty rare for a king at this period. I think the true French GA was under his reign : rich culture, population boom, military successes, economic growth with the first ecomic policies (which are now a tradition in France). Most French movies about our past are about this period, rather than middle ages or industrial era. Even if I think the musketeers are a lame unit, it's true the golden age was pretty much during this period. Louis XIV, whatever his dresses are, applies well to be the French leader.

Napoleon :
Basically, a political and military genius, completely megalomaniac. There weren't that many things during his reign : the Germans were the big culture-producers of Europe at this time, industrial revolution still didn't arrive in France, the progresses made during the revolution were mostly lost. But there was an incredible conquest, and Napoleon is THE hero of every civer. I think that's why he must be the French leader (unless we have a Corsican civ, but I doubt it )

Charlemagne :
He's famous ! But maybe not under this name. He's called Karl der Grosse by the Germans, who think of him as a German (he himself didn't think of him as a German or French : he spoke latin). Maybe the English call him Chales the Great or something. He had a huge empire for the early middle ages standards, extending from the Pyrennees to middle Germany, and made some cultural achievments (created schools and such). He was one of the most stable authorities of the early middle ages. At his death, his empire was divided between his 3 sons, the western part became France something like 150 years later. The first "king of France" (officially speaking) was Hugues Capet, at the end of the 10th century.

Clovis :
Famous in France : the leader of the Germanic raiders which settled down on the territory (the Franks) 1500 years ago. He was one of the first barbarians to convert to catholicism, which allowed the Church to be powerful on the French territory, and it allowed the churches not to be burned down, which let some places standing where knowledge was conserved during the whole feudal era. Because of him, France is called by Catholics "the oldest daughter of the Church". Important in the French history, but not in a Civ point of view.

Vercingetorix :
A Celt leader, while the French are mostly latin. He unified the divided Gaul-Celts against Caesar, being the first (and only) Celt great leader on the mainland. He won against Caesar at Gergovia but lost at Alesia few years later, where he surrendered for the sake of his people starving under the siege. He died 6 years later in a Roman prison. Although his tale is taught to every French child, it's not even sure he existed : only Caesar mentions him in the "War of Gauls", but it's possible he invented a leader comparable to him to gain more prestige. Also, I heard Vercingetorix means "chief" or something in Celt.


So, as a conclusion, I'd see de Gaulle or Louis XIV as good French leaders, but the Civ logic dictates it's Napoleon, simply because he's loved by civers. I can't understand they put Joan instead.

[Alanus]

Spiffor,

Thanks for the historical summary that I didn't provide so comprehensively (just to check what non french were knowing about our History).

About de Gaulle, you're right the referendum was in 1969, not in 1968. J'ai merdé sur ce coup là, désolé .

[jasev]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Napoleon :
[...]
the progresses made during the revolution were mostly lost.

Really? What about Metrical System or Napoleonic Code?

Charlemagne :
He's famous ! But maybe not under this name. He's called Karl der Grosse by the Germans, who think of him as a German (he himself didn't think of him as a German or French : he spoke latin). Maybe the English call him Chales the Great or something.

Carlomagno in Spanish, Carolus Magnus in Latin. I think the english speakers use the latin name.

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Alanus
Louis XIV : It is not because you laught at the way is was dressed that he was a looser. His reign was one of the longest in the history of the French kingdom and ended when he died in his bed

I was just kidding. I realize his reign was the longest of any monarch in Europe at the time of his death.

Honestly though, I'd go with Napolean. But Firaxis was probably short on female leaders, thus Joan. Anyway, she's cuter than Nappy.

[siredgar]

Louis Quatorze was a PIG! He ruined France. In fact, most historians judge him a failure and some attribute his deeds as reasons for why the English surpassed the French in the colonial race, etc.

Anyhow, his reign came when France was already at the height of its empire. Instead, it is people that play pivotal roles in a civilization's history that should be the great leaders, not those who benefit from their predecessors' work. Louis was part of the generation that spent it, not made it.

For example, while I believe FDR was the greatest American leader, it was Abraham Lincoln that kept the union together. Soon thereafter, the U.S. began its journey to become one of the most powerful nations in the world. Imagine if Lincoln did not keep the nation together. The U.S. would only be a major power, not a superpower.

Likewise, while I prefer Napoleon, it was Joan of Arc who preserved the French nation. That's why she's not such a bad choice after all.

[Darkworld Ark]

I myself like Napoleon for three reasons :

1 - He conquered a large amount of Europe
2 - It was Napoleonic troops who found the Rosseta Stone during their conquest of Egypt, allowing us to learn alot more about Egypt
3 - He was the first Anti-Christ, which might not be a good thing, but it sounds cool.

The only reason (in my view) that Joan of Arc is the French leader is that they needed more female leaders. (I think Catherine should have been Stalin or Lenin)

[Whoha]

1)its editable
2)leader heads have been posted
3)I seriously doubt he was the anti christ
4)wheres the le pen option to piss off french ppl

[Darkworld Ark]

Originally posted by Whoha
3)I seriously doubt he was the anti christ

That crazy guy who predicted the future (his name excapes me) said (although not directly) that Napoleon was the first of the threeanti-christs. (Hitler was the second, Saddam might be the third)

[KrazyHorse]

Napoleon's really good choice. Louis XIV is also good, since he embodied the pattern of French military ambition coupled with French military failure.

[Whoha]

The anti christ is supposed to be wearing a blue turban like the guys at the un wear isnt he?

[Max]

The fact is that Joan was not really the french leader at her time. Just an hallucinated (but brilliant) shepherd who helped the
king's army to push back the English to more reasonable boundaries.
I think she could make a good Great Leader for the French in CIV3, but not THE french leader.

Moreover Joan was implicated in military matters only. That is not the case for Napoléon or Charlemagne. Both of them expand their empire on one hand and structurated it at the same time (schools, king's envoys in every province for Charlemagne and laws compiling, administrative organization for Napoléon). I think only one of them can be THE french leader in a game like CIV3.

[Coracle]

Does anyone recall that one of Joan's military leaders, a French marshal, was a vicious serial child murderer??

Check it out:
http://shanmonster.bla-bla.com/witch...es/gilles.html

[August Borms]

Originally posted by Coracle
Does anyone recall that one of Joan's military leaders, a French marshal, was a vicious serial child murderer??

Yes, I certainly do
Gilles de Rais was the best friend of the main character in the French comic "Tristan" ("Jhen" in French)

http://bd.casterman.com/serie/castjhen/?r=castjmar

[notyoueither]

Charlemagne unknown? In what ignoramus factory?

BTW. My vote is Charlemagne. There are too few modern civs with ancient (?) leaders and Chuck would be a great one.

[Messer Niccolò]

Mais Napoleon naturallement!

[Alanus]

BTW, the list of leaders (Heroes in the French version) for the French civ in the default game is :
- Napoleon
- De Gaulle
- Richelieu
- Charlemagne

So, most of the ones I’ve initially listed to be candidates for being French Civ leaders.

I don’t see any problem to have them as leaders, except for the Cardinal de Richelieu, who was some sort of prime minister under Louis XIII (the father of Louis XIV). To remain in the same period, I would have rather selected d’Artagnan . It is a real character, though of course the Three Musketeers is a novel where his adventures have been invented.

The list for the French is rather short as compared to other Civs in the default games . The localization team could have extended it for the French version of the game !

The smart choice would have been to have Napoleon as Civ leader and Joan as (army) leader.

[Alanus]

Originally posted by Stuie

Honestly though, I'd go with Napolean. But Firaxis was probably short on female leaders, thus Joan. Anyway, she's cuter than Nappy.

Funny how you (americans ?) are good at finding nicknames. Is "Nappy" a common one for Napoleon, or just a one you invented ?

In France, we would say :
- Napo
- le petit Corse (the little Corsican)
- le petit caporal (the little Corporal)

But nothing like "couches" (nappies for babies)

[siredgar]

Haha, nobody is voting for Louis XIV anymore! =)