can't lose/can't win

[Furtigan]

Is anybody else having this problem?

On Regent setting, I am unbeatable. Every single game, I have an insurmountable lead by 500 AD if not before.

On Monarch setting, I can't win. I'm lucky if I'm in the middle of the pack. Within 50 turns of starting the game, the computer players are a half-dozen techs ahead of me, and it's all over. They're in the middle ages by 100 AD.

In my last 10-15 or so games, they're all effectively over before I start the Industrial ages. I don't want to cheat, but it looks like I'm going to have to go into the editor and change stuff to get a decent game.

[Capt Dizle]

Give us some details about how you are playing. My first guess is you are not taking advantage of buying tech from the AI. I am speaking of my experience with 1.17f of course.

I had no problem with the game up to Diety, which I thought was plumb silly. I only played two starts and just laughed and quit.

The game is quite simple. There is probably some simple flaw in your playing style (unless something changed dramatically in the last patch I am unaware of).

[notyoueither]

Furtigan. Do you focus on expansion early?

More cities equals more power for gold (science) and military, to a point.

What civs do you favour playing?

[PresidentMike]

I had the exact same problem as you did. Clobbered the AI on regent, got clobbered myself on monarch. Today I've more or less mastered monarch. Here's what I recommend:

1) Practice Practice Practice
You won't learn to ride a bike unless you get out there and do it. It's the same for monarch level. The more you play it, the better you'll get at it.

2) Get Iron Working Early
It's the key to kicking ass in the ancient world. Once you research it, start cranking out swordsmen like there's no tomorrow. This will allow you to invade your neighbors and force them to give you money and technology. Extorting tech from the AI is absolutley critical if you want to stay competitive in the science race.

3) Expand Quickly
The more cities you've got, the more trade, units, science, money and power you've got. I use the following system:
-Build capital
-build two defensive units (use one to scout, one to garrison)
-build settler
-build defensive unit
-build settler
-build defensive unit
-etc etc etc
Repeat this process in your new cities. Obviously you'll need to stop this cycle at some point and start worrying about city improvements, wonders, military units, etc. When to stop is a judgement call that depends on how the situation develops.

4) Plan Ahead
What is your plan? What technologies will you research? What enemy will you fight first? Where will you build your cities? What wonders will you build? If you don't have a plan to deal with these and other problems you're setting yourself up for trouble.

5) Play an Easier Civ
If all else fails, play a civ that gets its unique unit early, or that has better attributes (I like science, religious and military).

6) Develop Your Own Game Plan
This ties straight back to number one: practice practice practice. Advice from fellow civ players can help, but ultimatley you have to decide what stratagey and style of play is best for you.

[Saint Marcus]

On Monarch setting, I can't win. I'm lucky if I'm in the middle of the pack. Within 50 turns of starting the game, the computer players are a half-dozen techs ahead of me, and it's all over. They're in the middle ages by 100 AD.

I was the number 12 civ in 100AD. By 1400AD, I was already number 6, and judging from the demographics (F11) I'd soon be number 1.

That was on Emporer btw. When it was obvious I couldn't win as a builder, I switched to become a warmonger. Producing warchariots/knights/cavalry en masse, and started invading relatively weak nations. Greece was smaller than me, and China about as big as me. After defeating both of them I found myself making an incredible jump on the power and score graphs.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by PresidentMike
2) Get Iron Working Early
It's the key to kicking ass in the ancient world. Once you research it, start cranking out swordsmen like there's no tomorrow. This will allow you to invade your neighbors and force them to give you money and technology. Extorting tech from the AI is absolutley critical if you want to stay competitive in the science race.

I thought you don't get the iron works until you have coal. By that time are swordsmen that effective?

[dawidge]

He's talking about the Ancient Era Iron Working tech that allows you to see Iron resources and build swordsmen, not the Industrial age "Iron Works" small wonder.

The latter gives you a production boost in one city, the former gives you the tools to eradicate your neighbors.

Seriously, try running with one of the civs that gets its UU in the ancient era. I'm fond of the Romans (kick but early, get GLs, armies, wonders, get Iron working and your UU, kick but some more), the Babylonians (Bowmen are great on ancient era offense and defense, but upgrade to longbowmen (and stop there), which suck on defense, so you have to build your pikemen fresh when you get to that point, culture is the gift that keeps on giving for a builder/hybrid player, and cheap infrastructure keeps the babylonians going strong throughout the game), and the Persians (Immortals are great, some of your infra is cheap, industrious allows you to build up the territory with fewer workers). Many other civs are also quite good in the ancient era, but I've found that the Germans and French are difficult in the ancient era for a builder type. On the surface, the Greeks look good, but spend most of the ancient era on the defensive because their UU is a purely defensive unit and they're surrounded by cultures with early offense (Roman Legionnaries and Egyptian War Chariots) when you play with culturally linked start positions.

It is a combination of the culturally linked start locations, early offensive UU, and civ traits that make some cultures easier than others. The Romans can make easy work of the Egyptians if they attack at first sight (just double your warrior/settler ratio and eat them before they can mass war chariots against you). The Babylonians and Persians will go at it tooth and nail through most of the game unless one side wins a decisive battle early on (you will need a *lot* of bowmen to counter the threat of Immortals, but they are very cheap in comparison).

Others claim advantages to the Zulu and Aztec with the early access to rapid movement offense, but I haven't played them. I've found that if I can weather the early war with Zulu or Aztec, I can kick their buts later on. Babylon can culturally absorb great swaths of enemy territory by building small cities in any crevice of free land that will overlap into city boundaries, but you will need to defend them.

[Arrian]

Falling behind in tech on Monarch scared the hell out of me at first, but there are three ways to deal with it:

1) Build the Great Library (use the pyramids as a placeholder while beelining for literature)
2) Set science to 10% (or make 1 scientist and set it to 0%) and buy tech from the AI
3) Beat it out of the AI.

I used to go with option #1. I still can if I want. But I found the most powerful of the three is the last one. I like using the Japanese, but there are several civs that make good warmonger and/or hybrid civs.

If you try to do it all - build a military and develop your cities and build wonders - you will probably fail. I ended up chosing to gamble on an ancient horseman rush because the potential benifits are huge: more cities & territory for you, less for AI, more resouces/luxuries for you, less for AI, potential for Great Leaders, higher score. Now, it's true that if you get unlucky and fail to produce a great leader, you will miss out on ancient wonders (except for those you capture). But I've had games where the leaders were coming fast 'n furious, and there is nothing more powerful than a well-placed forbidden palace built in ancient times. It's like having two empires instead of one. The earlier you get it built, the more powerful it is.

-Arrian

[dawidge]

Another early key is to use an ancient era GL wisely. I've found that it is better to not apply your first GL to a wonder/FP, but to build an army with him and go out an win a battle. then build your heroic epic, which is supposed to improve your chance of generating a GL (I'm not sure how much, but that's what the 'pedia says). Those GLs can then be applied to building wonders.

[Arrian]

It all depends... the HE can be useful for leader generation, but sometimes it just isn't worth using up a leader now for the promise of two later. It all depends, and it's a gamble either way.

-Arrian

[Spaced Cowboy]

It is the experience level. I'm up to emperor and holding my own. There are plenty of folks that play at diety. Just keep hammering away and read the stragedy links.

R:PM

[Jawa Jocky]

There are a few major strategy changes when you make the jump from Regent to Monarchy.

1) Its better to buy/trade tech than to research it.
2) War is not an option, its a requirement.
3) Learn to live without Ancient Era Wonders, unless you have GL's the AI will always manage to finish them a few turns before you
4) You will always be behind so don't be discouraged. It takes a while to get caught up with the AI. Keep in mind the AI starts cheating on Monarchy.

These rules get even more extreme as you get into Emperor and Diety. I still have a hell of time on Emperor. I have actually started playing on Regent again because I like building against the AI more than fighting it.

[Spaced Cowboy]

I agree. The last time that I tried to build a wonder was 20 games ago on regent. The AI beat me to it and forced to switch, I bought the most expensive mounted warrior in history.

Now I mostly build military and keep my research to 10-20% to generate nothing but cash. I use the cash to buy the research when they get cheap (that is, everybody has them). The other cash is used to upgrade those unit that you crank out and buy buddies for beat on your neighbor games.

The biggest difference that I've noticed between Civ3 and Civ2 is that you need to keep on cranking out the units. An occational barracks for upgrades and a few temples on the borders are all the buildings you need in the early game.

Like I said though, keep at it and go yonder to the stragedy thread.

R:PM

[alva]

btw, make sure you have a good culture(be number 1) ,
deals get much better after that!!!!!

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by Arrian
3) Beat it out of the AI.

Yes. That is the way. I've found there's kinda a "club" of top AIs who share all the latest tech. Then there are the stragglers as well. I take advantage of the "club" with my strategy.

1. sci at zero. (always) I literally have won all my games on deity without any sci rate beyond Iron Working.

2. Pick off the weakest powergraph civ in the "club." (or occasionally one that doesn't have a key defensive resource.) Always hurt em enough that they give all tech + cash and their map. Maybe gold per turn.

3. For the civs behind you on the powergraph, make friends and give them resources for gpt.

4. After a lot of picking off (or on) the smaller club members, you'll find that the "club" is not too intimidating anymore. Its just maybe two civs, but they're probably big. Take on one and buy a lot of allies out of your small resource-wanting friends. They will absorb a lot of counterattacks sometimes for one strategic resource alone.

5. Once its just you and the big archrival, its more fun to do all-out war 1 on 1. You're about his size, but smarter. Its easy.

[Denday]

In earlier levels ( eg regent war cheif ) the start is the most important area of the game but in monarch they cheat, so you can't start better, so you need to catch up.
Don't worry or give up because youre not the strongest keep on playing because the game gets a little bit easier later on.