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  • How To Make Modern Warfare Realistic

    It have come to realize that as far as the modern units are concerned there is much to be desired. This is both in the ability of current units as well as units that don't appear in the game but should. I have developed several concepts that I have tested in a few games that have provided very agreeable results, and produced some of the best games I have played thus far. All these suggestions use the built in editor, no mods or changes in the game itself.

    1. Cruise Missiles - Who hasen't seen the rapidly appoaching targets from the cams of cruise missles before they slam into their targets? A truely awesome and characteristic weapon of modern times. However, the unit in Civ3 is not so awesome. It's limited range and dimunitive bombardment value leaves much to be desired. Also, while in reality the cruise missle is primarily (there are exceptions I know) a naval weapon in Civ3 it is a land based unit. I have changed the bombard value to 25 to give it a devestating effect, as few targets survive a cruise missle attack. Also, while I maintained the unit ability of "cruise missle" because that is indeed what it is, I have added the ability of "tactical missle" so that it may be loaded onto naval units. I decided to increase the missiles range to five to reflect the range of actual missles. This allows them to be used more as offensive weapons, which is their purpose, as opossed to primarily city based defesive artillery. I have thought about adding the precision strike capabilty, but have not tested the effects of this. I have been told it would make them like bombers, but I think that if the ability "cruise missile" is still used the missle will still destroy itself when used If anyone knows tell me.

    2. Nuclear Submarine - In the modern world, during the Cold War and even more so after it, Nuclear Submarines were sinister threats to world peace. Civ3 allows the carrying of a single Tactical Nuke, however in view of the capacity of actual submarines I have increased this load to four. Also, as you may have noticed, since cruise missles are now tactical missles thay can be loaded and fired from submarines, which is indeed a significant ability of modern submarines. this gives them a land based strike capability and a significant ranged naval attack weapon also. Decide between nukes and missles as you please. In addition, in an effort to reduce the power of the Battleship in modern warfare (bieng in the Navy, I know how harsh this is but in reality the battleship is not a viable modern weapon in the nuclear portion of the age) and reflect the awesome power of the modern sub forces in current navies the attack value is 12 and the defence value 8.

    3. AEGIS Cruiser - The ultimate surface combatant in the modern age, it's stats should reflect that. It's primary weapons platform is the cruise missle (capable of carrying nuclear tipped ones if it is so desired) so I gave the ship the ability to carry four tactical missles. Again, reflecting the nonentity of battleships as nuclear era weapons, the attack value has been changed to 14 and defence to 10. bombard remains the same, no matter how modern it's 3" gun is if won't beat the effect of nine 16" guns on land targets. Combined with it's unchanged characteristics this is by far the premier naval unit.

    4. Marine - The marine is a very versitile unit in Civ3 as it is in real life. However, it lacks survivability so I have inreased it's stats to 8 attack and 8 defence. Due to the need or superior training, however, the production cost has been raised.

    5. Paratrooper - One of my favorite units, I had grown sick and tired of droping them behind enemy lines just to see them immedietly rolled over. With this in mind, like the marine, I have raised the attack and defence values to 10 and 12 respectfully, and also increased production cost for the same reasons. This gives the unit the ability to defeat enemy infintry, which airborne soldiers are by default superior too, while also leaving them vulnerable to armor which is their natural achilles heel. Drop range increased to 6.

    6. Ranged Artillery - Mechanized Artillery is the King of the modern battlefield. The advanttage of bieng mechanized is you can keep up with the rest of the army, so movemnet is now 2 so it can pace Mech Infantry. Also, superior technology should lead to better range, so it is now 3.

    7. Combat Engineer - The forgotten heroes of the battlefield, here I had to do a little more work. I didn't want to modify the game, so I changed an existing unit that is rarely used, the Explorer, and made him into the Combat Engineer (the truth is I don't know how to add units ). In my games I was tired of fleets of AI bombers destrying all the roads and rails so that my supply line back to my homeland was tenuous at best. Also, when I brought up workers to repair and rebuild these lifelines fast moving AI units (that leftover knights, there is always one) would capture or chase them away. To deal with this in the real world we have engineering units, and why not in Civ3. Take a unit you don't want the game to use and change its name. I gave it an attack of 2 but a defence of 10, since I want it to be able to fend off lighter attacks but be defensive in nature. There is no population cost because it is a normal military unit. So what keeps you from using it as a worker and saving the citizens you ask? because it is a military unit it builds military improvements; ie roads, railroads, and fortresses only. Also, since I don't have an icon for it and the Explorer icon is not appropriate, I use the Infantry unit icon. The Tech to get the Combat Engineer is Computers, and by that time most regular infanty should be killed or upgraded.

    There you have it. All these things can be done using the default editor. There could be bugs or unexpected results, but I have yet to see any. Let me know if you find any or have any ideas for other edits.

    Patroklos
    "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

  • #2
    Good ideas, especially about the cruise missiles. However, I think you are being a little too harsh on the battlewagons. They were Queens of the Sea for almost 50 years, and are still a very potent force. And as much as I hate to say this, having served on the USS Antietam, you made AEGIS too powerful in comparision.

    Steele
    If this were a movie, there'd be a tunnel or something near here for us to escape through.....

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    • #3
      These are well thought out ideas, and i commend them even if i dont agree with them. Good work!

      Cruise Missile changes are good. I like them, i agree with your theories on them.

      Same with your Nuke Sub and other ships carrying capacities.

      I disagree with your changes to Marine and Paratrooper -- their implementation in Civ3 is unfortunately very limited, and while i agree with trying to tweak them, im not sure your tweaks are "correct"

      I feel you have been harsh on the Battleship, especially given the odd implementation of the Carrier in Civ3 (the supposed real king of the ocean these days) -- though, with patch 1.21 FINALLY the carrier will be a REAL threat on the oceans...i can't wait to try them.

      And finally, your combat engineer idea is frankly, IMO, brilliant. I love it. I will be adding it to my personal mod. Bravo!

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      • #4
        I first mentioned engineers months ago in reference to the ancient Romans who were masters at it.

        Unfortunately, if I seriously Edit and mod Civ 3, IT CRASHES.

        Comment


        • #5
          Patroklos, you a boomer?

          Great ideas, especially the Combat Engineer.

          I agree w/ steelehc, tho. While Battleships may be somewhat weakened in RL, they were awesome powers for a long time. Your solution, improving Subs, is elegant.

          Shouldn't Aegis-class cruisers really be much more powerful defensive units? I thought their primary role was / is long-range threat deterrence.
          The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

          Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.

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          • #6
            I'm fairly certain that they are meant for deterence as well, and why not add something about them being able to shoot down nukes and cruise missles??? Red that in a Tom Clancy book

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            • #7
              Great ideas! I've added all of them to my custom BIC except the Combat Engineer. (I don't want to remove any units to add a new one ATM..)

              These are the changes in mine, other than the ones you've said:

              1) Communism has Vet diplomats, Elite spies. This reflects the fact that KGB was the absolute best in spying in the world. IMHO, Veteran simply isn't good enough. Of course, I don't know whether this actually has any effect since espionage doesn't use units. :-/

              2) Changed Propaganda success chance to:
              in awe of (3x culture) : 80%
              admirers of (2x culture): 60%
              impressed with (1x culture): 30%

              3) Radar artillery has lethal sea bombardment, reflecting it's ability to basically smash whatever it can detect.
              Bombers and stealth bombers have lethal sea bombardment.
              Cruise missles have lethal land and sea bombardment.

              4) AI to AI trade rates have been reduced to 100 (they charge the same for other AIs as for human players) for Chieftan, Warlord, and Regent, and to 110 for Monarch, 120 for Emperor, and 130 for Diety.

              5) "Steal technology" costs have been reduced to 2, from 10. (This is the modifier which is used to calculate the actual cost. Effectively, I have cut tech-stealing costs to 1/5 of their normal 1.21f levels.)
              Last edited by Shadowlord; April 23, 2002, 20:50.
              "For it must be noted, that men must either be caressed or else annihilated; they will revenge themselves for small injuries, but cannot do so for great ones; the injury therefore that we do to a man must be such that we need not fear his vengeance." - Niccolo Machiavelli

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by PhoenixPhlame73
                I'm fairly certain that they are meant for deterence as well, and why not add something about them being able to shoot down nukes and cruise missles??? Red that in a Tom Clancy book
                Unfortunately, it is impossible in Civ to give a unit nuke-blocking abilities - you have to build the Strategic Missle Defense Small Wonder.
                "For it must be noted, that men must either be caressed or else annihilated; they will revenge themselves for small injuries, but cannot do so for great ones; the injury therefore that we do to a man must be such that we need not fear his vengeance." - Niccolo Machiavelli

                Comment


                • #9
                  With the combat engineer, keep in mind that the ai can't use it unless you give it all the terraforming options and click on the terraforming ai strategy. Other than that, it sounds good.

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                  • #10
                    Shadowlord, excellent additions.

                    I didn't really participate in the Civ mod community before this... with Civ2, did a sort of standard mod develop that most people played?

                    In fact, on 'poly, until now I've mostly not paid attention to this other than in regard to how Firaxis might take some suggestions for patches.

                    I thinnk that there are 14-15 really great ideas on this thread, in terms of unit changes (I also really like some of the interface ideas), which will probably never make it into the official game... it'd be great to have one mod that most people play.
                    The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

                    Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Next idea would be the Guerilla warfare, which would set to make guerillas appear whenever an ennemy would enter resisting cities. The partizans should be units with terrible retreat bonus, low defence and high offence, but no ability to take or to attack cities.

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                      • #12
                        The mod ideas are intriguing and will need to try them out in an actual game soon to comment further.

                        The real problem I see with modern warfare in Civ3 is that it (modern warfare) is a one man show. That is that if one attains a large number of Modern Armor (MA), then one can basically use it as a steam roller. I have played many games where it took me 5-6 turns to basically "sanitize" entire continents of enemy cities with MA. That just simply doesn't reflect or even hint at the reality.

                        What is reality with respect to modern (land) warfare? The reality is JOINTNESS! Even in the most lopsided military victory in history, the Gulf War, the US needed many elements of the army and not just the Abrams.

                        I am not a great writer and have trouble explaining my thinking so I will use an analogy. My analogy is basketball, rather Michael Jordan's Chicago Bulls. True, MJ was/is the greatest and had the most ability of anyone on the court but that didn't mean that he would be able to win if he didn't have the rest of his team.

                        What I am trying to get at is this: True the MA is the main weapon of modern land warfare but it absolutely NEEDS support elements. What are these main support elements that are so glaringly missing in Civ3? They are the self propelled artillery (SPA), the armored personelle carrier (APC), attack helos, towed artillery, air defence guns, and armored fighting vehicles (AFV).

                        The only ones that Civ3 has are the modern armor, the APC (mech. inf.), and the towed artillery (artillery).

                        I think most people who played Civ3 agrees that the modern age is a thin when it comes to things that one can build so, why not add these units? I will try to mod myself but first I am still trying to familiarize myself with the editor.

                        So a brief scenario, if one wants to stop a steam rolling by modern armor in Civ3, one should have the ability to make attack helos. Therefore, if one wants to protect one's MA from attack helos, one would have to build mobile air defense guns. Also, how would one slow down a mass of MA with air defense guns? Use AFVs fortified at critical areas. AFVs would have a higher defense than mech inf but cost more than a mech. inf (Bradleys are hideously expensive). Therefore, for the attacking force to make a successful ingress into a well defended enemy territory, it would need SPAs to soften up the fortified AFVs. Also, the attacking force would need mech inf and/or AFVs to protect the rear (the SPAs & air defense guns).

                        Therefore the attacking force would require:
                        Mech inf/AFVs
                        mobile air defense guns
                        SPA/towed artillery
                        MA
                        Optional would be the helos if airfields/cities are nearby where they can be based.

                        The defending force can put up a sustained defence WITHOUT matching the attacking force unit for unit with respect to MA with:
                        Helos
                        SPA/artillery
                        Mech inf/AFVs
                        and a sprinkling of MA to mop up any weakened MA or counter attacking.

                        That depicts modern land warfare more accurately than the MA steam roller strat.

                        When I get the time and if there is interest, I will try to share my ideas regarding Civ3 modern naval warfare.
                        Last edited by Navyman; April 24, 2002, 11:26.
                        "Misery, misery, misery. That's what you've chosen" -Green Goblin-

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                        • #13
                          Some good ideas here.

                          I'll definately be adding some of these mods to my game. Warfare in the modern era really needs to be able to move beyond running around with tanks and bombers and add a bit more depth to the whole experience.
                          petey

                          -When in doubt attack. When not in doubt, attack anyways - it's more fun

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                          • #14
                            Interesting theories, I have a few comments if you don't mind....

                            Cruise missiles - I agree here. The strength of CM in the game is understated and your modifications make it a more viable attack weapon. What I'd like to see is different attack options for Units and for Cities. A cruise missile would devastate an armoured unit or 2 but I think an element of targetting could be inclued when used to attack a city, ie destroy improvement X. Would be nice.....

                            Submarines - Fully agree. I'm not sure I entirely agree about the Battleship, but of course times change and a nuclear era Battleship would differ from a WW2 Battleship. There are very few ships around today that qualify for this class. The USS New Jersey was refitted to carry cruise missiles, but it remains a Warship from a time past. The best example today would be the Russian Kirov class. A heavily armoured/armed naval machine of death. Officially classed as a Battlecruiser it still proves there is a place for Capital ships.

                            Aegis Cruiser - Underrated in the game in my opinion. I think these are most useful when defending a carrier at sea. I'd like to see the ability to (Carrier) group naval units.

                            Marine/Paratrooper - Spot on.


                            Lots of good ideas but I think the limitations on waging a modern war in Civ3 lie mainly within the game itself. I'd be interested to see what differences your changes have made to the overall game balance.
                            Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses

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                            • #15
                              Re: How To Make Modern Warfare Realistic

                              Originally posted by Patroklos
                              5. Paratrooper - One of my favorite units, I had grown sick and tired of droping them behind enemy lines just to see them immedietly rolled over. With this in mind, like the marine, I have raised the attack and defence values to 10 and 12 respectfully, and also increased production cost for the same reasons. This gives the unit the ability to defeat enemy infintry, which airborne soldiers are by default superior too, while also leaving them vulnerable to armor which is their natural achilles heel. Drop range increased to 6.
                              Overall, an excellent post. However, paratroopers are notoriously weak. They are generally only used for disruption. They just need to be able to survive long enough to accomplish their mission, such as taking out a road, or holding a bridge. Once their job is done, they usually can only hope to be rescued by the real infantry.

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