Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The serious CPA thread (no spamming please)

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
    Bah! Materialism rules .
    Historical materialism, that is.

    I'd rather have a computer industry so I can talk to people all over the world rather than not even developing the technology (because there is no profit).
    Just because there's no profit motive doesn't mean there's no motive to continue improving the conditions of human existence. Despite the disaster that Stalin and Lysenko were for Soviet science, they made massive leaps in science and technology. In physics and medicine, the Soviets were neck and neck with the West almost up to the end.

    Remeber the OpenSource movement. There isn't much profit there (at least not yet, despite some IPO insanity during the tech bubble). People don't create and produce Linux and GIMP etc to make money, but because they love their work. It fulfills a creative need that all humans have. That will still exist. And because we believe in a democractic society, instead of having to convince people with money that you idea is good, you just have to convince your fellow citizens.

    If it were up to the American public, we'd have had air bags in autos twenty years before the car companies finally got around to doing it. In many many cases, supply lags far behind demand because the people with money don't see a need for the product.
    Last edited by chequita guevara; April 7, 2002, 21:41.
    Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by chegitz guevara
      Ecthelion, CPA stands for certified public accountant.

      =============

      I some aspects, I agree with Comrade Miller, in that we need to keep focused on the main goal of communism. However, I disagree with the comrade on what that goal is. The goal of communism is not public ownership of companies, etc., but freedom. Specifically, freedom from necessity.

      By freedom from necessity I mean the conditions of current human existence that require the vast majority of humanity to waste their existences slaving away to secure the material conditions necessary for existence. Most people spend their entire waking life either working to obtain the food, clothing, housing, etc. they need or are recovering from work and replenishing themselves for the next day's work. Despite the fact that we live comparatively better than our ancestors, it is but a gilded cage. Our ancestors standard of living may have been poor than ours, but they had substantially more free time in which to relate with other human beings, to produce art (folk art is still art), etc.

      Revolution, economic democracy, public ownership of the means of production are not ends in themselves, but means to an end. By abolishing profit, by abolishing unecessary labor, by allowing people to have control over their workplaces, we anticipate that the overall amount of work necessary to produce the necessities of life will be diminished. This will increase the amount of time available for us to concentrate on those things that make us most human: socializing, producing art, science, exploring ourselves and the world, or even just more time to sit around and play Civ.

      Because our movement is a movement based upon freedom, we need to touch upon all things which enslave us. We need to speak out about all opression, because it is our aim to abolish it. We need to address the concerns that people have about those things that diminish their quality of life, because we aim to create a society which enhances our quality of life.

      Because our movement is a movement which is opposed to the way things are, we need to know why things are the way they are. How did they come to be that way? Why are they still that way? Why have attempts to change it failed? In what ways they have succeeded? Most importantly, how do we get to where we want to be?

      None of these questions can be answered by one person or even a small core group of highly educated people. The answers can only be discovered by the most rigorous debate and study and practice. Answers that were once true may no longer be true, because conditions have changed. Underlying truths may still be correct, but how do we apply them to the realities we face today?

      Which brings me around to my original agreement with Jon. What is important is not so much a laundry list of agreements and demands upon reality. What is important is a method for understanding what tasks lie before us and what concrete activity is required of us.

      Although I do believe that most of what Marx, Engels, etc. have written is as true today as it was in the days it was written, the most important weapon our former comrades left is their method. It runs like a golden thread through their writings. Understanding this method makes our task easier (though still herculean).

      What is this thread? It is historical matieralism. It is my position that an understanding of historical materialism necessary for anyone who hopes to change the world.
      yes it is not the ownership of corportations (but that is the best way to do so)

      rather it is working together to help mankind

      communism shares a common goal with lots of otherthings, it is a method for society to work better

      it is just the best method

      Jon Miller
      Jon Miller-
      I AM.CANADIAN
      GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

      Comment


      • #33
        Just because there's no profit motive doesn't mean there's no motive to continue improving the conditions of human existence. Despite the disaster that Stalin and Lysenko were for Soviet science, they made massive leaps in science and technology. In physics and medicine, the Soviets were neck and neck with the West almost up to the end.


        They profited handsomely. Just because the SU said it was communist, didn't mean they didn't have ways for its scientists to profit, by bigger houses, better cars, etc.

        Yes, opensource is a big thing... but the main capital intensive industries of making computers and parts, which made opensource viable, cannot be done by 'creative' designers. Only way to make large appliances and consumer goods is through the corporation.
        “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
        - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

        Comment


        • #34
          scientist don't do it for the money

          Jon Miller
          (at least I do not care about the money)
          Jon Miller-
          I AM.CANADIAN
          GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
            Just because there's no profit motive doesn't mean there's no motive to continue improving the conditions of human existence. Despite the disaster that Stalin and Lysenko were for Soviet science, they made massive leaps in science and technology. In physics and medicine, the Soviets were neck and neck with the West almost up to the end.


            They profited handsomely. Just because the SU said it was communist, didn't mean they didn't have ways for its scientists to profit, by bigger houses, better cars, etc.

            Yes, opensource is a big thing... but the main capital intensive industries of making computers and parts, which made opensource viable, cannot be done by 'creative' designers. Only way to make large appliances and consumer goods is through the corporation.
            I don't care about a bigger house either

            Jon Miller
            Jon Miller-
            I AM.CANADIAN
            GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

            Comment


            • #36
              I don't care about a bigger house either


              But I do .

              scientist don't do it for the money


              Plenty of R&D people do it for the money though.

              And that guy who split from the Human Genome Project did it for profit as well.
              “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
              - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

              Comment


              • #37
                in the time of More (as in Sir Thomas More), all that was needed for great wealth by a nation was just 4-6 hours a day of good labor

                think about how much more effeiceint things are now (of course people want more also)

                people do not need to work their asses off and should not need to

                they should have time for their families and to enjoy things in life

                now I can see having some sort of award system (especially with our current materialstic culture)

                in fact I would argue that things should be done gradually (first nationalizing industry and corporations (but do that slowly also))

                one area that I disagree with you Chi is I think the main thing communism is trying to do is make people happy

                now happy people must have quite a bit of freedom, but there must be limits also

                Jon Miller
                Jon Miller-
                I AM.CANADIAN
                GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Three guys in a garage created the first Apple computer. They did this out of the love of making computers. Once the concept is demonstrated, society could easily put the capital together to create a collective for making computers.

                  Furthermore, research collectives could easily exist for the prupose of pure research, without having to be tied to coming up with products that "have a market." Imagine if Xerox Park was a collective in 1973. We could have had "Macs" on the market a full decade earlier.
                  Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    all scientists need is a research lab or an institution

                    now current society is not fair to scientists, it gives the fruit of scientists labor to the big corporations and the wealthy

                    Jon Miller
                    Jon Miller-
                    I AM.CANADIAN
                    GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                      Plenty of R&D people do it for the money though.
                      Money only became an object for R&D people recently. Generally their research was done through a major corporation which benefitted or a university, in which case everyone benefitted. These days universities are patenting and selling off the rights to the stuff their scientists create.

                      That doesn't mean that threa reason R&D people do it is becuase of the money. They'd still be doing it even if they were only getting recognition, since the real prize is doing it.
                      Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Jon Miller
                        now current society is not fair to scientists, it gives the fruit of scientists labor to the big corporations and the wealthy
                        How is that not fair? Why shouldn't the people who pay for the research get the fruit of the labor? After all, they payed the scientist for his work.
                        I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                        For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          actually I hope for a time when money is no longer used

                          each produces what he is capable, than all receive what they need

                          maybe there can be some sort of honor system also, to recognize who does well (does not need to be maeterialistic)

                          Jon Miller
                          Jon Miller-
                          I AM.CANADIAN
                          GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Three guys in a garage created the first Apple computer. They did this out of the love of making computers. Once the concept is demonstrated, society could easily put the capital together to create a collective for making computers.


                            'society' can put capital together? This isn't utopia.

                            Apple Computer would have died if a venture capitalist hadn't funded them to mass produce computers.

                            Profit is what drives technological progress. Technology that isn't widespread really isn't progress at all. And leads to the spread of technology? That's right, the profit motive and mass production that can only happen through the corporation.

                            Communism is a pipe dream, capitalism is the reality. Get used to it .
                            “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                            - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by DinoDoc
                              How is that not fair? Why shouldn't the people who pay for the research get the fruit of the labor? After all, they payed the scientist for his work.
                              By and large, in the US, it is the American people who pay for the research (depending on the product). The rights are then sold to a private corporation at far below market cost, and the company then proceeds to make a lot of money off something for which we have already paid.
                              Last edited by chequita guevara; April 7, 2002, 21:21.
                              Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by chegitz guevara


                                Money only became an object for R&D people recently. Generally their research was done through a major corporation which benefitted or a university, in which case everyone benefitted. These days universities are patenting and selling off the rights to the stuff their scientists create.

                                That doesn't mean that threa reason R&D people do it is becuase of the money. They'd still be doing it even if they were only getting recognition, since the real prize is doing it.
                                which wasn't fair

                                the corporations would make people pay stuff the scientists provided for free

                                sceintists saw this and decided that they should be getting of it

                                scientists would do it for free (well they have their needs)

                                they are just reacting to the unfairness of it all

                                there really should be no such thing as corporations doing things for profit

                                corporations are a step backwards

                                Jon Miller
                                Jon Miller-
                                I AM.CANADIAN
                                GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X