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Israel has never lost a conventional war, or won a guerilla war

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  • #31
    And Israel is a democracy, the Palestinian Authority is an autocratic regime.
    You support Franco, who also was a dictator. So don't start this democracy hypocracy.
    Quod Me Nutrit Me Destruit

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    • #32
      Just for speculations sake, what do you think the US response would be if Mexico had purposefully killed or injured that many of its civilians in that same period of time and showed absolutely no signs of slowing down?


      Like I said in the other thread... Vietnam... example of public opinion turning when a guerrila war took full hold. And a guerilla war this will be, and it'll be worse than Lebanon ever was, and Israelis couldn't deal with that.
      “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
      - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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      • #33
        Like I said in the other thread... Vietnam... example of public opinion turning when a guerrila war took full hold. And a guerilla war this will be, and it'll be worse than Lebanon ever was, and Israelis couldn't deal with that.

        I think Israel will do everything possible to avoid it from becoming a "Lebanon".

        Infact, that is what many security advisors suggest - that our hastened unilateral withdrawal (read: escape) from Lebanon, has give Arafat the idea that he could make Intifada 2.

        Well, this time, it has to be different.

        Defensive = bad.

        We should constalty be on the move, attacking terrorist hideouts, making weekly incursions - and then withdrawing.

        Staying there, would be a bad choise, since then we're sitting tanks

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        • #34
          But, Siro, obviously Sharon WANTS to stay there... seeing as he's been annexing West Bank land like crazy since 2000.
          “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
          - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
            But, Siro, obviously Sharon WANTS to stay there... seeing as he's been annexing West Bank land like crazy since 2000.
            an·nex Pronunciation Key (-nks, nks)
            tr.v. an·nexed, an·nex·ing, an·nex·es
            1. To append or attach, especially to a larger or more significant thing.
            2. To incorporate (territory) into an existing political unit such as a country, state, county, or city.
            3. To add or attach, as an attribute, condition, or consequence.
            "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master" - Commissioner Pravin Lal.

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            • #36
              What is your point Eli? According to defintion 1 & 3, Sharon HAS been annexing land like crazy... even if it isn't fully incorporated into Israel, you know it will be.
              “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
              - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                What is your point Eli? According to defintion 1 & 3, Sharon HAS been annexing land like crazy... even if it isn't fully incorporated into Israel, you know it will be.
                Nothing was "added" to Israel. Sharon, and every other representative of the Israeli goverment said clearly that Israel is not interested in staying in those places.

                As for the future, I can only hope you're right.
                "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master" - Commissioner Pravin Lal.

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                • #38
                  Um... hello... since 2000 about 25% of the West Bank has been formally annexed by Israel!!
                  “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                  - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                    Um... hello... since 2000 about 25% of the West Bank has been formally annexed by Israel!!
                    Umm... Source?
                    "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master" - Commissioner Pravin Lal.

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                    • #40
                      Open access // by Philippe Rekacewicz (Le Monde diplomatique - English edition, September 2001)


                      As you can see since what was Proposed in 2000 at Camp David, significant areas have been annexed.

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                      “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                      - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                        Like I said in the other thread... Vietnam... example of public opinion turning when a guerrila war took full hold.
                        Typical Palestinian propaganda. Always dodging questions with pointed ends.

                        1) They weren't in a guerrila war during the time of those stats.
                        2) Arafat has continually broken any and all negotiated ceasefires and makes no attempts to reign in the activities of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. despite having the force needed to do so.
                        I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                        For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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                        • #42
                          1) They weren't in a guerrila war during the time of those stats.


                          There will be... and it basically is.

                          2) Arafat has continually broken any and all negotiated ceasefires and makes no attempts to reign in the activities of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. despite having the force needed to do so.


                          This is an incredibly laughable statement. Ok, so since Dino says Arafat has the force, he must

                          Typical Israeli propaganda .
                          “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                          - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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                          • #43
                            You are still ignoring the question I asked, Imran. What would be the American reaction if Mexico killed or injured 56584 civilians in an attempt to regain the territory they lost to us in the Mexican-American War?

                            Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                            There will be... and it basically is.
                            Guerrilas are the exact opposite of terrorists, Imran. Guerrilas choose to put themselves against combatants, terrorists on the other hand choose to target weak and defenseless civilians: old men, women, children--anyone in fact except soldiers--if they can avoid it.

                            This is an incredibly laughable statement. Ok, so since Dino says Arafat has the force, he must
                            You have too choices, Imran. You can either admitt that an army consisting of around 30,000 men, far in excess of the forces commanded of any other militant faction, can at least make a concerted effort to stop the attacks upon civilians or you can just say that it would be impossible for it to do just that and that Arafat is impotent to deliver on any peace deal.
                            I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                            For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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                            • #44
                              What would be the American reaction if Mexico killed or injured 56584 civilians in an attempt to regain the territory they lost to us in the Mexican-American War?


                              We'd try to fight back and annilate them... and if it got really bad withdraw... there was a reason we didn't listen to the people who said 'All Mexico' because of the guerrila and terrorist attacks that would come from it... so we took mostly uninhabited areas (by Mexicans)

                              Guerrilas are the exact opposite of terrorists, Imran. Guerrilas choose to put themselves against combatants, terrorists on the other hand choose to target weak and defenseless civilians: old men, women, children--anyone in fact except soldiers--if they can avoid it.


                              I don't understand how you can make such a blanket statement. Guerrilas and terrorists are cut from the same cloth, and terrorists don't mind killing soldiers, in fact, many Israeli soldiers have been knocked off at checkpoints.

                              You have too choices, Imran. You can either admitt that an army consisting of around 30,000 men, far in excess of the forces commanded of any other militant faction, can at least make a concerted effort to stop the attacks upon civilians or you can just say that it would be impossible for it to do just that and that Arafat is impotent to deliver on any peace deal.


                              It is impossible to stop militant factions.... but you have to crawl before you walk and you have to have a fair peace, in order to take some of the thunder away from the militants and then deal with them.
                              “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                              - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                                We'd try to fight back and annilate them...
                                Now, we are starting to get somewhere. Now, let's look at the reactions of some of the states currently dealing with seperatists violence. How does the Isreali reaction to it compare to that of Russia, a State critical of Isreal's recent actions, reaction to its problems in Chechnya? We could even see how it compares against the actions of another critic, China, in dealing with thier own problems with Islamists.

                                I don't understand how you can make such a blanket statement.
                                Because it is true.

                                Guerrilas and terrorists are cut from the same cloth, and terrorists don't mind killing soldiers, in fact, many Israeli soldiers have been knocked off at checkpoints.
                                Guerrilas are not terrorists. They are irregular soldiers who wage war on regular military forces, secret police agencies, and governmental counter-insurgency police units. Guerrilas do not prefer civilian targets. They do not conciously select civilian victims.

                                I'll give a cookie to the first person who can tell me where that comes from.

                                but you have to crawl before you walk
                                I agree wholeheartedly. He could start by reigning in those that report directly to him: Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, etc.

                                BTW, no one is asking for him to completely stop the terrorists. Only that he make a genuine effort to try. Something which he has never done at any step of the peace process.
                                I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                                For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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