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Thread: MOD: The BALANCER

  1. #1
    monkspider
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    The Greatest and largest-scale Civ3 mod yet! THE BALANCER 1.0

    I have put together what I considered the most balanced and through mod currently available on the internet. Some changes trivial, some far-reaching. After through play testing I have found the results to be very favorable. As I hope you will too!

    NOTE! Games saved before installing this mod may not work

    1.5 is out! download it here www.geocities.com/docbutter2001/balancer15.zip
    or here http://www.geocities.com/hotdairyman...ncer15.zip</a>
    (right click and save target as)

    *NOW IN NEW, EASY-TO-INSTALL FORMAT!*

    -availablity of resources tweaked:
    Iron available with bronze working
    saltpeter available with invention
    coal available with metallurgy
    Oil available with industrialization
    rubber available with electricty
    aluminum with mass production
    Uranium with atomic theory
    This should help relieve the "can't trade for a resource because the guy doesn't have the
    nescarry tech" situation.
    -massively updated civlopedia
    -added to the list of great leaders for each civilization, each civ has at least 6 now
    -University has decreased cost but adds one unhappy citazen
    -Recycling Center now adds 2 culture and Mass-Transit 1 culture
    -Explorer unit available much earlier with Map-making, scout upgraded to 0-0-1 but now treats
    all terrain as roads
    -decreased the Samurai's stats from 4/4 to 4/3, but I also decreased its cost from 70 to 50.
    This is to reflect the samurai's historical role as an offensive unit.
    -power plants tweaked
    Coal: 50%, Hydro: 100%, Solar: 100%, Nuclear, 150%
    Rather than coal, hydro and solar all having the same production value
    -shield added to base value of mountain and jungle
    -Marine tweaked a bit to 10-8
    -decreased cost of forbidden palace by about a third
    -increased cost of modern armor to 120-140
    -increased cost of Mech infantry 110-130
    -Due to an increased number of ways to reduce corruption (and presumably it will be increased
    even further in the offical patch), Classless Society now increases science and decreases corruption.
    This should make the three late game governments unique wonders a powerful and complementary triumvirate.
    -Bowman tweaked to 3-1-1 , rather than 2-2-1. This should make it a tad more useful I think
    -factories, manufacturing plants, offshore platforms, all add -1 culture per
    turn. Coal Plants, Nuclear Plants add -2 culture per turn.
    -efforts are made to balance out the 5 major types of government (despotism and anarchy excluded)
    ---Republic and Democracy now have a unit support cost of two gold per unit.
    ---In an attempt to weaken Democracy a bit, it loses immunity to propaganda, and it's spies are now
    considered "conscript". Also, perhaps most far reaching, Democracy and Republic has a
    unit support cost of two, this allows it to have a high tech, but smaller, army. Which is
    more realistic (and balancing) I think.
    ---Republic's spies and diplomats are considered "conscripts"
    ---Monarchy gains immunity to planting spies all together (as being the weakest of the five
    governments, this makes Monarchy considerably more attractive)
    ---Fascism gains immunity to steal technology
    -Adds government specific city improvements, each of these improvements are free of upkeep, but
    are only available for certain governments

    Monarchy
    -Feudal Manor- available with Feudalism, +25% production, +1 unhappy citazen, lowers corruption
    -Aristocratic Villa- available with Monarchy, +50% luxory output, lowers corruption

    Republic
    -City Assembly- available with Republic, Adds one extra happy citazen, makes city immune to propaganda
    -Theatre- available with Free Artistry, adds two extra happy citazens, 3 culture per turn

    Democracy
    -Stock Exchange- available with Economics, +50% tax and luxory output, -1 culture per turn
    -Shopping Mall- available with Computers, +50% tax and luxory output

    Fascism
    -Internment Camp- available with espionage, +25% production, ,reduces corruption, -2 culture per turn
    -Reeducation Center- available with espionage, +50% production, reduces corruption, -3 culture per turn

    Communism
    -KGB Center-available with espionage, +50% science
    -Politburo- available with Communism, reduces corruption, +25% production

    -adds two new government specific wonders
    Hagia Sophia- available with Monotheism, only available for Monarchy, doubles effects of temples and never expires
    School of Socrates-avaliable with, and only available for Republic, gains two free advances for host civilization
    -adds two new industrial age wonders, due to a general sparcity of wonders in that time period
    Einstein's Laboratory- available with Atomic theory, gains Great Library bonus until Space Flight, when it becomes obsolete
    Carnegie's Steel Trust- Available with The Corporation, +150% production in host city, pollution and -2 culture are the drawbacks
    -Longevity tweaked to become available with Scientific Method
    -reduced cost for recycling plant and mass transit improvements to help fight widespread pollution in the game
    -New statue of Liberty splash image and Civlopedia icons
    -new dinosaur park civlopedia icons
    -Economics is now prequisite for Democracy, rather than Banking
    -Printing Press is now prequisite for Free Artistry, rather than Democracy
    -reduced cost of great lighthouse just slightly, since harbor cities typically have little production in the early game and give it a chance to recieve more use before advent of Navigation
    -Great Wall now available with pottery, at time when all of your cities haven't reached size 6, and there
    are still reasonable ammounts of barbarians around. It should be a fairly useful wonder now.
    -reduced Colloseum's price to that of Aquaduct
    -increased price of Barracks to match that of Temple
    -reduced costs for artillery and radar artillery
    -tweaked the cruise missile to an extra square of bombard range
    -greatly expanded operational range of helicopter
    -slightly increased research costs for pottery (as great wall is now available with it)and Literature
    -reduced cost slightly for Magellan's Voyage, to reflect the fact that harbor cities tend to have
    lower production than non-harbor cities
    -Shakespeare's theatre now also gives one extra happy citazen in all cities, but has a
    increased cost from previous versions and decreased culture (12-6), this should now make it a good wonder
    -reduced cost for Leo's workshop
    -slightly increased cost for Copernicus' Observatory and Newton's University
    -Dinosaur Park once improved luxory, taxes, and science in one city by 50%, this has been
    tweaked to allow + 50% taxes and luxories, but now doubles the science output.
    -Decreased research cost of Genetics to encourage more use of the late game Wonders

    1.4
    -Longevity now available with a medicine, at a time when your cities haven't actually maxed out their populations
    -Squatter renamed to colonist
    -SETI now a trigger for expansionist civs as well
    -Great Wall upgraded to adding city walls to every city on same continent
    -Oil luxory bonus resource no longer appears on coastal areas due to some strange things it was causing
    -Infantry/Mech infantry can no longer create tile improvements
    -Stealth fighters can no longer intercept other aircraft
    -Cure for Cancer now adds two happy citazens and produces extra luxory output
    -Due to complaints of being a culture only mod, Sgt Pepper now has a Colosus type trade bonus
    a higher cost, and a lower culture output (25-10)
    -Forests go back to giving 10 shields instead of 20, again, due to complaints
    -Swordmen now upgrade to riflemen
    -Longbowmen now upgrade to riflemen
    -most anchient naval units see a +1 movement bonus, most modern ones +2
    -Paratrooper stats now upgraded to 10.8.1 paradrop range is 8
    -Marine stats now upgraded to 12.7.1
    -Universal Equality renamed to "classless society" and loses it's great library effect and now instead knocks out almost all corruption throughout your civilization.
    -adds new artwork for the Statue of Liberty and Dinosaur Park wonders.

    1.3-1.32
    --- Improves the much maligned Expansionist civs by adding a new unit, the Squatter.
    The Squatter is a slightly-cheaper version of the settler with an extra movement point.
    This should give expansionist civs a much-needed ability to expand.

    ---adds government specific wonders for the three most advanced forms of government, these wonders are powerful but also very
    expensive and limited to being built by certain governments

    -Statue of Liberty, limited only to Democracy, decrease war weariness, when used in conjunction
    with Universal suffrage it can make Democracy a powerful military machine

    -Universal Equality- Gain any two advances owned by any other governemnt, limited only to
    Communism. Useful to gain ground on the scientifically advanced Democratic nations. Lasts until discovery of space flight.

    -Reichstag- Allows Fascist governments to build armies in ANY city.
    This gives the Fascist government that some complained of being
    too weak a considerable advantage.

    ---There are two new Modern-Age Wonders, due to complaints of there being too few in that
    period
    -Dinosaur Park-Available with Genetics, this wonder increases tax, science, and luxory output
    by 50%
    -Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band- Available with Ecology, This wonder simply produces 25 culture a turn.

    Note, all of these wonders include brand new wonder splash screens. There is also an updated
    Civopedia and some updated artwork for Facisism.
    Enjoy!




    1.1
    -Changed the number of happy citazens at each difficulty level back to the default due to complaints
    -upgrade Aegis Cruiser attack to 17
    -increased number of missiles the Nuclear submarine can carry to 3.
    -reverted Bowman back to 2-2-1 for the moment, due to an issue with the War Chariot
    -cheaper nuclear weapons


    1.0
    -Adds a new government, Facisim. A great war-time government
    -added Rommel to list of German leaders and Montgomery to list of British leaders
    -Catapult bombard strength upgraded to 6
    -Cannon bombard strength upgraded to 9 and rate of fire to 2
    -Babylonian Bowman upgraded to 2-1-2 rather then 2-2-1
    -Clearing jungles now takes less time
    -tweaked Communism a bit to fit well between Democracy and Fascism
    -Gave Police Stations the ability to quell corruption like Courthouses. Increased their cost to 120 shields, and maintance costs to 3 gold per turn.
    -Man o War upgraded to 4-3-4
    -The chance for Air Superiority interception is increased to 65%, even though this feature seems to be broken at this time.
    -Great Lighthouse upgraded to having 5 culture each turn
    -The Great Wall now reduces corruption and gives 4 culture each turn
    -Magellan's Voyage now also gives a free harbor to all cities on the same continent, along with the normal +1 movement bonus to all naval vessels. Cost was increased to 600 shields.
    -Shakespeare's theatre upgraded greatly by now giving 12 culture each turn, rather than 6
    -The UN gives a Collossus like trade bonus in every tile, due to the unpopularity of the diplomatic victory
    -Cure for Cancer and Longevity each upgraded to giving 10 culture each turn, due to complaints of their
    ineffectiveness in coming so late in the game
    -Artillery upgraded to bombard strength 14
    -Increased the number of initial content citizens for each difficulty level:
    Chieftan- 5
    Warlord- 4
    Regent- 3
    Monarch- 3
    Emperor- 2
    Deity-1 (left the same)
    -Changed harvested-forest bonus shields from 10 up to 20. This is a good way to boost production in ancient times, and also in the later 'post replaceable parts' era via deforestation. Very advantagious to Industrial civs.
    -Changed Wealth shields-to-gold ratio down to 4:1 from the default 8:1.
    -Oil should now sometimes appear on coastal tiles. They will not be able to be used as a strategic resource because you need to road to it, but it will still give its bonus resources.
    -Army Corps of Engineers: Infantry and Mechanized Infantry can perform the Build Forstress, Build Road, and Clear Forest/Jungle commands.
    -All civs now get the corresponding regular units to their unique units.
    -Radar Artillery has 18 bombard; 2 range; and 3 rate of fire. This change (I find these upgraded artillery stats to be much more balanced than the default ones)
    -Cruise Missile now has a bombard range of 6 instead of 2.
    -Transport can now only carry only 6 units.
    -Submarine now attacks at 8 instead of 4.
    --AEGIS Cruiser has the same bombarding attack strength as the destroyer: 2.
    -Nuclear Submarine has the same attack and defense as the modded submarine (8A.4D), but now moves at 4. Even the civilopedia stated that the n-subs were supposed to be faster.
    -Fighter now has a bombard strength of 4.
    -Jet Fighter and F-15 have their bombard strength increased to 8.
    -Stealth Fighter can now initiate the Interception command. Its stats are: 8A.6D and operational range of 7. Bombard is 8 with a rate of fire of 2.
    -The Chinese Rider UU no longer has ZoC
    -Mounted Warrior also has no ZoC; for the same reasons stated for the Rider and Horseman units.
    -Privateers have an attack of 2, defense of 1, and move at 4. This makes them a decent investment for their time.
    -Destroyers upgraded to 14 attack
    -Battleships upgraded to 20 attack


    One thing I hope to do with this mod is address the needs of the fans, so if there is anything you would like to see changed email me, or post on the forum! I want this to be the best mod there is! Have fun!

    Last edited by monkspider; December 2, 2001 at 15:34.
    http://monkspider.blogspot.com/

  2. #2
    Pyrodrew
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    Thumbs up Suggestions

    Great work, I *strongly* agree with many things you did!
    My constructive critism:

    Babylonian Bowman upgraded to 2-1-2 rather then 2-2-1
    Some people maded some good arguments for the 2-2-1Bowman in the "Useless Units" Poll in Civilizations Forum. By changing it to 2-1-2 it effectively makes it a cheaper (20shlds instead of 30) & without horses chariot unit. Not very fair to the Egyptians. The Egyptians Chariot being improved to a 2-2-2 would seem more justified since not only does it cost more than the Bowman but requires horses as well.

    Great Lighthouse upgraded to having 5 culture each turn
    Given the Great Lighthouse now allows any ships to sail deep oceans safely this is no longer the useless thing it was in Civ2. Being able to settle unclaimed islands before your enemies & contact other civs 1st is definitely something I love. Columbus & Ponce de Leon are in that Great Lighthouse waiting to set sail.

    Shakespeare's theatre upgraded greatly by now giving 12 culture each turn, rather than 6
    Someone gave a suggestion to increase the culture significantly instead. In essence make it the Culture Wonder.

    Increased the number of initial content citizens for each difficulty level
    This may actually make it easier since humans might actually build up 1 or a few cities early on, unlike the AI. I like to lean towards making the AI tougher.

    Changed harvested-forest bonus shields from 10 up to 20. This is a good way to boost production in ancient times, and also in the later 'post replaceable parts' era via deforestation. Very advantagious to Industrial civs.
    If Industrial is one of the best bonuses, do Industrial Civs need more advantages?

    Oil should now sometimes appear on coastal tiles. They will not be able to be used as a strategic resource because you need to road to it, but it will still give its bonus resources.
    What if when oil resources are deplinshed & disappear they start showing up on the coastlines unable to access? Minor tho & that would be part of the fun... making oil truely a limited resource.

    All civs now get the corresponding regular units to their unique units.
    Why? Why would the Aztecs want to build a 1-1-1 Warrior for 10 shields when they can build their own unit 1-1-2 for 10 shields?

    Thanks.
    Last edited by Pyrodrew; November 13, 2001 at 23:30.

  3. #3
    monkspider
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    Re: Suggestions

    Thanks for the suggestions Pyro!!
    Here's what I think


    [
    -Some people maded some good arguments for the 2-2-1Bowman in the "Useless Units" Poll in Civilizations Forum. By changing it to 2-1-2 it effectively makes it a cheaper (20shlds instead of 30) & without horses chariot unit. Not very fair to the Egyptians. The Egyptians Chariot being improved to a 2-2-2 would seem more justified since not only does it cost more than the Bowman but requires horses as well.

    That sounds good to me, I'll definitely look into the possibility of that being changed in the next update. Thanks for bringing that to my attention



    -Given the Great Lighthouse now allows any ships to sail deep oceans safely this is no longer the useless thing it was in Civ2. Being able to settle unclaimed islands before your enemies & contact other civs 1st is definitely something I love.

    You're right! As do I! I felt just a tiny "tweak" was all the lighthouse really needed.


    -Someone gave a suggestion to increase the culture significantly instead. In essence make it the Culture Wonder.

    Yep, I agree. I think 12 culture a turn should definitely make it worth building, especially if you are following a cultural strategy.


    -This may actually make it easier since humans might actually build up 1 or a few cities early on, unlike the AI. I like to lean towards making the AI tougher.

    Perhaps, I have left the diety level AI alone. But I think this actually helps things run just a tad bit smoother from my experience. I'll do a little more testing to see if this is unnesscarry. Thanks for the sugestion.



    -If Industrial is one of the best bonuses, do Industrial Civs need more advantages?

    true, more than anything, I just felt that only getting ten shields for harvesting an entire forest seemed like a pretty raw deal.


    -Why? Why would the Aztecs want to build a 1-1-1 Warrior for 10 shields when they can build their own unit 1-1-2 for 10 shields?

    Good question! I added the corresponding units for possibility of upgrading the units in the future. I thought you might as well at least have the option open to you.

    Thanks.
    http://monkspider.blogspot.com/

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    monkspider
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    By the way, if you are having trouble downloading, try right-clicking and going to "save target as". That should work for ya.
    Hopefully Apolyton will host this file soon, which will resolve any discrepancies with Geocities
    http://monkspider.blogspot.com/

  5. #5
    MarkG
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    here it is

    v1.0 downloaded 221 times
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by MarkG; November 16, 2001 at 02:31.
    Co-Founder, Apolyton Civilization Site
    Co-Owner/Webmaster, Top40-Charts.com | CTO, Apogee Information Systems
    giannopoulos.info: my non-mobile non-photo news & articles blog

  6. #6
    Jeremy
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    The ability to build the standard version of your civ's unique units would be of great help to me in my current game. Playing as the Romans I am unable to build the standard Swordsman unit because my unique unit is the Legionary. Fine, but that also means I can't upgrade my many Warrior units at all. I can understand not being able to upgrade Warriors to Legionary. But not even to Swordsmen?

  7. #7
    cort
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    most of them are nice changes but I strongly object to a number of them since they tend to make the game easier just for the human player.

    1. changing the # of content citizens; why at all? you can always play at a lower level.
    2. increase forest harvest bonus? I am sure AI does not use it as a cheap tactic to boost production as we humans do
    3. giving build abilities to infantry, mech. This is asked to Soren Johnson and he clearly stated that AI WILL NOT be able to make use of it. another human only change.
    4. make man-o-war 4-3-4?! not a single UU has +2 on any single of its attributes and you give +2/+1 on its attributes?! you must be a "spice girls" fan I guess
    5. changing the culture values of several wonders; again I seriously doubt those changes will be evenly evaluated by the AI, just making "win through culture victory" easier for the human player.

  8. #8
    Ozymandous
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    Heh, well with all the complaining from folks around here essentially complaining the game is too hard, it's not surprising that someone would make a "mod" that makes the game easier for the human player.

    For all the lip service about wanting a tougher game I guess people seem to only want to play the same crappy AI as was in Civ2 & the CtP series.

  9. #9
    Frodo_05
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    Big Grin Re: Re: Suggestions

    Originally posted by monkspider
    Thanks for the suggestions Pyro!!
    Here's what I think


    -Why? Why would the Aztecs want to build a 1-1-1 Warrior for 10 shields when they can build their own unit 1-1-2 for 10 shields?

    Good question! I added the corresponding units for possibility of upgrading the units in the future. I thought you might as well at least have the option open to you.


    Thanks.
    Maybe because they don't want to get a GA too early, because their SU scores a victory?
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  10. #10
    monkspider
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    Hey Cort, I hope this clears things up for you a bit.
    1. changing the # of content citizens; why at all? you can always play at a lower level.
    I find this to create a smoother running game personally, but if there are very many more complaints about it I will reverse course in the next update of the mod.
    2. increase forest harvest bonus? I am sure AI does not use it as a cheap tactic to boost production as we humans do
    Actually the AI recieves the same bonus
    3. giving build abilities to infantry, mech. This is asked to Soren Johnson and he clearly stated that AI WILL NOT be able to make use of it. another human only change.
    This is unfortunate, and hopefully the AI will be updated to take advantage of this in patch. But for now, I think the ability is trivial, and available more since fortresses take so long for workers to build.
    4. make man-o-war 4-3-4?! not a single UU has +2 on any single of its attributes and you give +2/+1 on its attributes?! you must be a "spice girls" fan I guess
    LOL, well a Naval UU, especially one that is before the advent of the iron-clad seemed to be limited in use. I think this makes things a bit more fair.
    5. changing the culture values of several wonders; again I seriously doubt those changes will be evenly evaluated by the AI.
    Actually the AI WILL be able to take advantage of these changes. If the AI builds these wonders they will get the same cultural bonus. Moreover, Soren spoke of the AI being very dynamic, so theoretically, they should also make building them of higher priority as well, which does seem to be the case from my playtesting. I shall look into this a bit more just to be sure, however.
    http://monkspider.blogspot.com/

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    Iron Chef
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    Big Grin LOL as well

    Originally posted by Ozymandous
    Heh, well with all the complaining from folks around here essentially complaining the game is too hard, it's not surprising that someone would make a "mod" that makes the game easier for the human player.

    For all the lip service about wanting a tougher game I guess people seem to only want to play the same crappy AI as was in Civ2 & the CtP series.
    In defense of the mod-creators, though, I don't necessarily agree that these mods make the game easier for the human player, because both the AI and the human players get the advantages (or disadvantages) of any changes. I think it's perfectly legitimate to make mods to incorporate whatever changes one feels appropriate, which is one of the beauties of this game (like Quake3 and its predecessors, to some extent).

    What does get me LOL, and what I do get a kick out of reading, are the changes to make the game more "balanced" or more "realistic." I mean, the game is "balanced" as long as all civs play by the same rules. I suppose one could address the issue of balancing vis-a-vis one wonder/military unit/city improvement/resource being much more beneficial than another with the same cost, but isn't that the beauty of the game?

    One thing that bugs me is that you can't upgrade horsemen to unique units such as the Rider/Samurai/War Elephant, while all the other civs can upgrade to Knights (and similar scenarios with other unique units). On its face, that seems to be a balancing problem. But maybe that's a design feature that actually keeps the balance that would otherwise be lost if such upgrading was allowed. I don't know how I feel about that as of yet, although I wonder what the designers had in mind and why they did it. For me, the real curiosity is what will be in the official patch, to see how much the desginers take into account what they hear on various forums. Anyway...

  12. #12
    Ozymandous
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    Re: LOL as well

    Originally posted by Iron Chef


    In defense of the mod-creators, though, I don't necessarily agree that these mods make the game easier for the human player, because both the AI and the human players get the advantages (or disadvantages) of any changes. I think it's perfectly legitimate to make mods to incorporate whatever changes one feels appropriate, which is one of the beauties of this game (like Quake3 and its predecessors, to some extent).
    Hmm, I disagree. Sure the abilities may be available for both, but (for example) if the AI isn't programmed to understand that infantry can now do additional things then the AI will not use these features! This means that all bonuses in the game will be to the SOLE benefit of the Human player.

    What does get me LOL, and what I do get a kick out of reading, are the changes to make the game more "balanced" or more "realistic." I mean, the game is "balanced" as long as all civs play by the same rules. I suppose one could address the issue of balancing vis-a-vis one wonder/military unit/city improvement/resource being much more beneficial than another with the same cost, but isn't that the beauty of the game?
    I agree and stand by what I said earlier. People "mod" the game to make it easier for human players, at least in this case, because the AI will not understand the additional things added because they were never told to do so.

    One thing that bugs me is that you can't upgrade horsemen to unique units such as the Rider/Samurai/War Elephant, while all the other civs can upgrade to Knights (and similar scenarios with other unique units). On its face, that seems to be a balancing problem. But maybe that's a design feature that actually keeps the balance that would otherwise be lost if such upgrading was allowed. I don't know how I feel about that as of yet, although I wonder what the designers had in mind and why they did it. For me, the real curiosity is what will be in the official patch, to see how much the desginers take into account what they hear on various forums. Anyway...
    [

    I do agree that all UU's should either be the end of a "line" of units, similar to Cavalry, or be able to be upgraded, this would only be fair.

    I'm with you, I am waiting to hear what Firaxis does with the patch. I just hope they don't "balance" the game to make it easier because people 1) can't use old strategies to beat a new game and 2) can't adjust their playing style to play within the limits of the game (with corruption for example) instead they want the game to change.

    Time will tell, but I am hoping the patch will do nothing but fix the air superiority bug, add new features to the editor and maybe fix a few minor issues as well (No corruption is NOT a bug).

  13. #13
    SnowFire
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    Arrow

    -Adds a new government, Facisim. A great war-time government

    I do not understand the obsession with various mod-makers of adding Fascism in as a government. It's a TERRIBLE government. It should not be great at much of anything. The only reason to stick it in might be to make a generally suboptimal government a human player can change to for giving themselves a challenge.

    If you want to run a Fascist government, switch to Despotism, and randomly raze your own towns or otherwise attempt to execute your own citizens. Every turn roll a 10% chance of randomly declaring war on some nation. Sound good?
    All syllogisms have three parts.
    Therefore this is not a syllogism.

  14. #14
    Dar
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    Question I do have a question

    I have installed the Facism mod that someone else made. It used a new Civ3mod.bic file as well.

    I would have to remove their mod to use your mod, right? Since your Civ3mod.bic is much bigger than the one the Facist mod uses. (yours is 234kb his is 107kb)

    A silly thought, but couldn't you two incorporate the facist mods into one?

  15. #15
    Iron Chef
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    Re: Re: LOL as well

    Originally posted by Ozymandous


    Hmm, I disagree. Sure the abilities may be available for both, but (for example) if the AI isn't programmed to understand that infantry can now do additional things then the AI will not use these features! This means that all bonuses in the game will be to the SOLE benefit of the Human player.

    I agree and stand by what I said earlier. People "mod" the game to make it easier for human players, at least in this case, because the AI will not understand the additional things added because they were never told to do so.
    Good observation, which is something that I thought about after posting. Can the AI learn how to incorporate new values into its strategies for the AI civs? I can see how this would be incredibly difficult, but is it possible if the AI is programmed to build the "best" unit/wonder/improvement based on the values given rather than selecting from a separate list created by the programmers? Because if that's the case, I think the AI does figure it out. I dunno. If the AI can't adapt, then yes, the mods are definitely just for the benefit of human players. If it can, there is some validity (but I can't see myself ever using the patch).

    However, as far as battleships go, for example, it's going to be 20 attack (is that what this mod changed it to?) for all players, AI or not, so they will receive the benefit for units they would otherwise produce. But I agree wholeheartedly that (a) air superiority needs to be fixed; (b) corruption is not a bug; and (c) I think the coastal fortress "free shot" feature is also broken.

    I also pretty much agree w/ SnowFire. Facism? I just think it's a pretty lame idea for warmongers. But hey, you can modify the game as much as you want. You could probably also modify Quake3 so that the human player takes 1/2 damage from a rocket than a computer opponent if you want to make it easier on yourself.

  16. #16
    monkspider
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    (double post)
    http://monkspider.blogspot.com/

  17. #17
    monkspider
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    Thanks for the constructive criticism folks, I'll definitely take this stuff into account for the next update. Simply for the record, I'm not trying to make this an "easy" patch, in fact, merely a balancing patch. All changes I implement will affect the AI as well, as Soren Johnson himself said that the AI will be able to handle the addition of new units, new governments, etc and from my experience this is true. Which is perhaps, a fact that many are unaware of, after being used to the static AI's of CTP and so forth. So, other than the Infantry-building fortresses issue, these changes are going to be affecting both sides.
    I hope you all are having fun!
    http://monkspider.blogspot.com/

  18. #18
    Boris Godunov
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    I think there is a lot of myth about Facism tied to Mussolini "making the trains run on time." People tend to see Facism, while autocratic, as highly efficient and productive.

    In reality, this is untrue. Facist Italy and Nazi Germany suffered rampant corruption, horrible inefficiency and massive economic problems. The massive military build-up and wars were the only things the leaders could do to galvanize industry and keep the countries afloat.

    I would give Facism very high corruption values and very poor economic values. I really don't see a difference between it and Despotism.

    Cheers.
    Tutto nel mondo è burla

  19. #19
    dtocas
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    i think all the things you have done are brilliant but could you increase the amount of missiles a submarine can carry instead of having just one you could make it to six or something around about that. also i was told submarines can't carry cruise missiles could you change this

  20. #20
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    Originally posted by dtocas
    i think all the things you have done are brilliant but could you increase the amount of missiles a submarine can carry instead of having just one you could make it to six or something around about that. also i was told submarines can't carry cruise missiles could you change this
    For the record, this is an easy change to make... simply change the sub's transport capacity, and give the cruise missile the 'tactical missile' flag.

  21. #21
    Trachmyr
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    You don't have to allow the civ to have the units normaly replaced by rheir UU's to enable upgrading... do this:

    Archer -> Babylonian Bowman -> Longbowman

    Chariot -> War Chariot -> Horseman -> Mounted Warrior -> Knight -> Rider -> Samurai -> Elephant -> Calvary -> Cossak

    etc.

    This will allow upgrading of UU's, while still preventing the other civs from building them.

    I also suggest allowing swordsmen/Longbowman to upgrade to rifleman... allow calvary to upgrade to tanks... privateers/frigates/ironclads to upgrade to destroyers... explorers to fighters! Note that if a civ lacks the required resources, they can still build the obsolete units.

    I also suggest allowing only Expansive Civs to build Explorers.



    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Also, improve specialists... increase Tax Collectors and Scientists to 3 tax/science instead of 1.

    Well, those are my humble suggestions for your mod.
    Last edited by Trachmyr; November 15, 2001 at 16:47.

  22. #22
    vette_21
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    Wink Aegis same as destroyer

    I'd say I have to disagree with your making the aegis the same attack points as the destroyer. Seeing as you get the destroyer in the industrial age it would lead me to believe that this is a WWII destroyer at best. A modern day Ticonderoga is much better at attacking then an old destroyer. Modern ships do not depend on their guns as much for attacks they use missiles. Things like Tomahawks, and Harpoons are the weapons of choice. Also i don't understand why they made the Aegis Cruisers as being special at stopping subs. The Ticonderoga is meant to stop massive air attacks not subs. That’s what the Sprunice Class Destroyer is for. I'd even consider making an Aegis attack as well or better then a battleship, but giving it less bombard value since it doesn't have those 16 inch cannons.
    Al Villa

  23. #23
    Bubba_B
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    Can this be fixed

    Good ideas!

    Maybe u can answer a question.

    I have come across a problem with my edit to one unit in particular. The mech inf. unit I edited to carry 1 foot unit to make the marines a little more useful and to take advatage of mobile warfare in respects to foot units. With this edit in place my mech inf. will not go on transports. Once I remove the edit the unit works fine, but with the Trans ability at 1 it will not board transports.

    Got any ideas on how to fix this??

    TY in advance

    P.S. Can u supply the goverment edit without the other modsso I can keep my edits in place.

  24. #24
    dannyevilcat
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    I think there is a lot of myth about Facism tied to Mussolini "making the trains run on time." People tend to see Facism, while autocratic, as highly efficient and productive.
    In reality, this is untrue. Facist Italy and Nazi Germany suffered rampant corruption, horrible inefficiency and massive economic problems. The massive military build-up and wars were the only things the leaders could do to galvanize industry and keep the countries afloat.
    I have been reading ALOT about the inclusion of this form of government in the posts, and, although I have my own personal version of the Fascism "patch", which is very different from Monkspider's and the original , I LOL everytime I hear people talk about how inefficient and bureaucratic it really was (and it was), because how is that drawback any different from a democracy? , which IMHO debates issues so much I'm truly amazed anything gets done (poor efficiency=waste), and is notorious for corrupt senators/members of parliament/etc. Just look at all these threads! Of course I love it.

    Ask yourself what you think of the politicians that represent you, and your faith in them.
    It's not corruption which hamstrings fascism, it the whole "murdering of innocent people and war-mongering" thing.

    Yes I still would give it a nuisance-level of corruption (but only for game balance) and YES, DEMOCRACY IS THE BEST FORM OF GOVERNMENT ( though I never use it in Civ) but not because it's a corruption free merry-land.

    And holy sh*t, did I ramble on or what? Sorry...

  25. #25
    gelat1
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    As a member of the armed forces, in the Infantry, I can surely tell you, we cannot build roads, clear junges or forests. Not light infantry, nor mech infantry. Even your standard engineer units attached at BN level will not be able to accomplish this.

    just FYI

  26. #26
    monkspider
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    I agree gelat, fortunatly such things aren't represented in this mod!
    http://monkspider.blogspot.com/

  27. #27
    gelat1
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    strange, at the top it says they can do this in this MOD - am I confused?

  28. #28
    monkspider
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    I suppose I should make my attempts at sarcasm less ambigious. LOL sorry Gelat, in all honesty, while it may not be realistic in all cases, I think it's not too unreasonable a proposition to have infantry clearing forests and so forth, and more over, it offers silky smooth gameply, which is what I am more after. Not all things in Civ are realistic after all, do battleships really take 45 years to go accross the world?
    If this feature becomes unpopular, I will definitely remove it. So if you don't like it, let me know!
    http://monkspider.blogspot.com/

  29. #29
    gelat1
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    No, it is fine - I have not tried the MOD, I am a purist to a fault, and am not to keen on using MODs until I master the game. I am really only after working air superiority and coastal defenses.

    As for the INF issue, I was merely trying to lend my expertise...

    Enjoy!

  30. #30
    Mkinser
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    I think I am missing something...

    OK...so I download the zipped file for this mod from MarkG's post. When I extract it, I get one BIC file. Is this all I need? Just move this into the root directory and all of these changes will be in effect?

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