The Nazi intelligence service was the Abwehr and was indeed run by Canaris, until he was removed. There was also a competing intelligence service run by the SS, under the direct command of Himmler. Himmler had Canaris removed and then took over the intelligence gathering (such as it was) for the entire Third Reich.
In my Fascism gov't, I have not included the trade bonus, on the rational that 1) it unbalances Fascism (witness all Civs using it) and 2) it's not terribly realistic based on historical fascist gov'ts. I have also made the workers set at 3.
Does anyone know if it is possible to make civs that have the same gov't more likely to form Alliances?
Cheers,
Walter R. Strapps
WolfShanze- Upon a little more playtesting it does seem Facism is quite a bit too powerful. I would take out the trade bonus personally. I would like to see Facism be even more of a military government than Communism, as it was in Civ 2.
Don't take this as criticism though, we all appreciate your great work!
http://monkspider.blogspot.com/
I have been doing some tweaking and find these to be pretty good settings
-Dropping the tile bonus
-Increase draft rate and military police bonuses to 4 a piece
-increasing free units to:
town- 3
city- 5
metropolis- 10
-setting a rate cap of 5, meaning you can dedicate no more than 50% to science.
-making Facism available with the advent of Nationalism (rather then Espionage)
This makes Facism the ultimate military government, and at the same time be pretty balanced. It is sort of a Fundamentalism for Civ 3. I'm open to hearing some tweaking options of course.
What do you think Wolfshanze?
Last edited by monkspider; November 9, 2001 at 14:28.
http://monkspider.blogspot.com/
Note, for anyone interested in trying out my more-military minded version of Wolfshanze's patch, please download 'er here.
Please offer any fair criticism!
http://www.geocities.com/monkspider/civ3mod.zip
NOTE: you MUST have Wolfshanze's original patch installed before installing this one.
Of course, just replace the mod file in the root Civ 3 folder with mine, and you're good to go!
http://monkspider.blogspot.com/
Monkspider, I think you missed something here with regards to how I set up Fascism, and you're missing a BIG point.
It's been stated before, nobody uses Republic late in the game. There is a reason for this... because anyone who uses Republic tends to switch to either Democracy or Communist late in the game.
Why do they switch? Why does nobody use Republic late in the game?
Because the corruption of Republic is simply awful and nobody chooses it over the lower corruption of Democracy or Communism.
If you stop and think for a minute, how I rated Fascism is simply a Republic with no war weariness and free units, but it still has the awful corruption of Republic.
Fascism is CLEARLY superior to Republic... it's supposed to be, because nobody uses Republic late in the game.
What it is NOT clearly superior to is Democracy (which will kick a Fascist Government in the ass with research and commerce), or Communism, which has a lower and better balanced corruption rate than Fascism.
By taking away the Trade bonus from Fascism you have weakened the government to be CLEARLY INFERIOR to either Communism or Democracy in pretty much any endeavor. Communism was already top-notch with military matters, and there is no real reason to be Fascist if you take away the trade bonus.
In my opinion, it is a VERY BAD move to take away the trade bonus, and frankly, with your modification of my Fascist Patch, I'd play as a Communist any day and easily defeat a Fascist Regime who is ripe with corruption.
Last edited by Wolfshanze; November 9, 2001 at 16:22.
As stated above there are disadvantages...
CORRUPTION, CORRUPTION, CORRUPTION
The biggest one is the corruption which is obviously bigger than either Communism or Democracy, plus because Fascism comes late in the game, it sucks even worse if you're a large empire (which most people are late in the game) since corruption is awful on the fringes of your empire... neither Communism or Democracy have to deal with this.
Bottom line, the only advantage Fascism has over Communism is the trade bonus, and NOTHING ELSE. Communism on the other hand, is much better at being a large empire and dealing with corruption.
The Democracy is a tougher call, but is clearly a better choice than Fascism for some... people say the "war weariness" is great for Fascism vs Democracy... well, maybe to a warmonger it is, but if you're shooting for culture or other peaceful endeavors what good is war weariness to you? Furthermore with less corruption (far less), A Democracy can outresearch a fascist government, so clearly, for the peaceful player (or even a defensive wartime player), Democracy is a better choice than Fascism.
As for one other tidbit... a Fascist Government hurries production with slave labor, ergo killing off it's own population... something a Democracy (or even Republic) doesn't do!
Yes, Virginia, Fascism has plenty of downsides.
I didn't mean to attempt to undermine your hard work Wolfy, which is indeed highly appreciated. But I personally have always associated Fascism with military conquest. Don't you think Facisism should be the uber-military government choice? As is, Facsism is sort of a cross between Republic and Communism, and I think most people think of Fascism as the ultimate "bad guy" government. I think it would prove to be much more distinct as such. I'm sure that my suggestions could be highly tweaked, and perhaps currently it is, as you suggest, weaker than Democracy and Communism. But I think Facisism, as it stands now, as a relatively peaceful governement, is headed in the wrong fundamental direction. Facisism tends to conjure up images historically of brute force, and military conquest, which is why most would find Facisism would be better as a uber-military government, along the same lines as Fundamentalism in Civ 2.
Also the trade bonus is HUGELY powerful, and gives virtually no motivation to play as Communism or Democracy, because it truly offers the best of both worlds. Massive gold and science, as well as military police and free military units. Sorry if I seem rude, after all your hardwork, but I think you will agree with me that that Facisism is better as a fundamentalism-esque military government than a "guns and butter" government.
http://monkspider.blogspot.com/
Upon looking over the statistics posed earlier in this thread, I think you may be right in me posing too much of a science cap on the government. But I think the key is keeping a cap of some sort, so that Facisism is the weakest government scientifically, but giving it all powerful military strength, while keeping a fair balance between the two. Perhaps we could even add Democracy-level Corruption if the Republic level (which I don't think is quite as bad as you may think) proves to be too much of a nuisance?
http://monkspider.blogspot.com/
Monkspider... I think you and I have completely differant understandings of what Fascism is and/or was during the 20th century.
You keep speaking of Fascism like it was the BEST wartime government to have, and state it should have the worst science rate.
From my own knowledge of history and fascism, I couldn't disagree with you more strongly, and in fact, it sounds to me more like you are describing Communism, not Fascism.
Points of fact:
Fascism is a FREE-MARKET economy, which isn't far off from a Republic or Democracy (a major reason why I gave them the trade bonus).
The Nazis most productive and fruitful economic years were BEFORE THE WAR, as they ammased many social benefit and work programs... when the war started, it took the Nazis YEARS before they ever had a full-scale wartime economy... the Germans were WAY BEHIND in production figures over what they could have been, and in fact, it took the Germans over five years before they ACTUALLY went full-scale wartime production footing, and by then, it was too late. The Communists on the other hand had a booming economy during the war, and easily and quickly outstripped Germany, not only because of it's size, but because of it's commitment to the war, which the Nazis never took seriously.
Nazi Germany was NEVER geared towards a major war effort... in fact, every plan the Germans had regarding war was the minimalist approach. Blitzkrieg warfare by it's very nature is designed to be short decisive wars with minimal economic impact at home. The Nazis lost partly-in-fact because the war with Communist Russia dragged on... the Communists successfully adjusted the economy, while the Nazis handled theirs poorly during the war.
Scientifically, though Nazi Germany suffered corruption and redundant programs, they still had great scientific success, something the Communists never (or at least rarely) had. Not to say that the Nazis had a better science drive than American Democracy, but it was CERTAINLY better than the Soviets!
Overall, if you look at what I did, is that I placed Fascism IN-BETWEEN Communism and Democracy in it's effectiveness for wartime and peace... a whole I think Fascism fills in nicely.
I understand that you (and perhaps others) may view Fascism and thier kind as running the PERFECT wartime economy, as seems to be your argument. Well, if history is any indication, you couldn't be more mistaken... the Nazis and their Blitzkriegs were designed to keep their economy as close to a peacetime one as possible!
The game of Civilization is not meant to make history a mockery of what it was, but rather perhaps, with a little luck, teach everyone a little bit about history. The Fascist myth (and it is a myth) of Fascism being the perfect wartime economy is plain silly. The historical truth is that Fascism was far more a free-market economy and not well suited for all-out war. Had the Fascists actually used the German economy to it's fullest capacity for war starting in 1939, rather than in 1944 as was the actual case, we may all be speaking German now!
Bottom line, I think I modeled Fascism as best as possible within the given game mechanics, and I think it fits in nicely in-between Communism and Democracy where it belongs... it is certainly not the best government for a long drawn-out war, but that sort of war is counter to what a blitzkrieg is, now isn't it!?!?!
Being throughly studied in WW II, your facts regarding the Russo-German war are indeed accurate. Whether Facisism or Communism should be more or less scientificly/militaristicly is merely matter of how you view history. I think you certainly underestimate the power of Soviet science, which had developed superior tanks to Germany at the start of Barbarossa, and had, at least, as good of tanks as anyone by the end of the war, the Soviet airforce improved considerablly as well. Had Stalin not purged most of the USSR's great scientific minds the USSR may have been on virtually an equal footing with Germany. In spite of these purges, which had a long lasting "brain-drain" upon the USSR until it's final collapse, the USSR put up a good fight scientifically even with the United States after WW II. While usually a step or two behind in most fields, it certainly held it's own. On the same coin, I'm sure a fair case could be made for Communism being unfairly represented as a "savage", "war-like" government as well. In any event, I digress. I think that the semantics of how one personally views history aren't the main issues at stake here. There are two fundamental points to be addressed.
1. The game needs an Ultra-militaristic state, and most people view facisism as the ultimate bad-guy government. Whether their views are accurate or not is entirely subjective to how you view history. Some may tend to highlight for the massive economic revamping right-wing facisism brought Germany, yet others would highlight the cold-hearted, and war-like nature of the stereotypical Facist country. While perhaps the ideals of Facisism may not involve things such as anti-semtisim, extreme nationalism, excessive hegemony, general war-mongerism, and the other bad things seem to come with the stereotypical facisist country, generally speaking at least, in our version of history. In any event, Facisism fills a general stereotype of what the ultra-militaristic state entails, and as such, would fit nicely into the game.
2. The Guns and butter approach takes the best things of Democracy and Communism with no substantial drawbacks, corruption is higher to be sure, but enough to substantiate Democracy-like science and Communism-like military? There are tweaks that can be made, but I suppose that's why this is only version 1.0. No?
In any event, I hate to seem too critical here, as we all appreciate your work here Wolfy.
Last edited by monkspider; November 10, 2001 at 00:21.
http://monkspider.blogspot.com/
Facism favours free trade? Hold up a second.
Fascism: "exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition."
You've got your priorities all wrong here. Fascism has a very strongly centralized state. There should be no bonuses for free trade, because under fascism...there is no free trade. On the other hand, the overbearing state should virtually root out all corruption. Fascism--low on corruption, low on trade (low on morals, too).
I've also noticed some people who seem to think Hitler brought fascism to Germany. Well, he didn't. Be brought national socialism. He controlled the economy almost as much as he controlled the lives of individuals--Communism with a distinctively racist element added to it.
This idea that fascism promotes free trade is gobsh*te.
Well in my oppinion Fascist govs should have one of the highest science available if ww2 germany is any indication. during the war and before it they developed more war weapons than any of the democratic or communist govs. this can be seen in the rocketry and advanced tanks. there are stories of a single King Tiger or Panzer 7 (i think) taking out as many as 50 american or russian tanks. as well for the creation of jet fighters and a pre icbm. Hitler was a little obsessed with artillery and slowed reserch on rocketry as well as an allied comando raid that killed lead scientist at the reserch sites. the allies beat germany because they had more of everything were they (germans) had not many. D day was a big trick played on the germans. all in all i think Fascist should get high reserch on military if that is posible. bet plz lets not get to analyzing all of WWII
Fcubed
All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost;
From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring.
-J.R.R. Tolken-
Fascist governments in history arose partially out of the collective hatred of socialism. Acting as the socialist antithesis, they favored free trade, via big industry, as opposed to democracy which believes in balancing the rights of the employed vs. the employers, or communism which says (in short simple theory) to kill your boss but then get back to work.
A government that placed the needs of large corporations over their own citizenry was deemed "estato corporativo" by the Italians, which somehow through the sands of time and translation became more popularly known as fascism. Trying to build a fascist patch as a Civ 3 emulation of Nazi Germany is not the best route to go (until scenarios can be made to resemble WWII...then that would be pretty cool). General patterns of all fascist governments should be taken into account...and so far I think that the original patch is the best deal given the limited amount one can modify this game.
"Magnificant bird, isn't it? Beautiful plumage."
While it's true that fascists and commies often fought, in essence they were two sides of the same coin (socialism). Communists sought to redistribute wealth to the "proletariat", fascists claimed sovereignity and the right to regulate and control the use of all property(and often to redistribute it to either themselves or certain favored corporate friends) .
It's worth noting that *none* of these is truly in line with the ideals of the free market, or laissez-faire capitalism, which has a deep abiding respect of people's private property and abhors the notion of redistribution of wealth (which is why the idea of fascism getting a "free trade" bonus seems a bit silly to me).
While a system that only nominally protects private property and redistribute much of it to government and favored corporations is *definitely* far from the economically ideal situation of laissez-faire, it is still admittedly a smidgen better then communism's economy-ruining central planning committees, and thus should be marginally better economically, though no where near what's considered the game's version of laissez-faire, Democracy. The best that could be said about fascism economy-wise is that it's communism's slightly more practical sister
I have to agree with Justin and Ludwaffe here.
As you can see Monkspider, the opinions of what Fascism is and isn't is varied from person to person. Not everyone here seems to think that just because the nazis were "bad" doesn't mean they should be exhalted as the end-all-be-all wartime government.
As for the economy of Nazi Germany, it certainly isn't the "free-market" economy of what we have in the western nations of today, but it's a far cry from the absolutely abismal economy of Communist Russia. It was considerably better than what the communist economy was, and had Germany won in Europe in WW2, and a cold war existed between the US and Germany, instead of the US and Russia, we'd probably still be in a cold war today, because the German economy would not have collapsed as Russia's did. Simply put, you don't want to be in a Communist economy forever, or you'll collapse... kinda like what being communist is in Civ3, but it's a good way to choose for war! Fascsim on the other hand is a better choice for long-term use economy-wise both in reality and in Civ3.
The trade bonus in Civ3 in my interpretation more reflects a "modern" economy, more than a laisse-fair capitalist economy. I think the trade bonus should be given to any government that could privatize the industry rather than central government control. Nazi Germany, though with much government regulation, was still sponsoring private firms to regulate themselves, something the Communists never did, and THAT is what makes the differance in the trade bonus in Civ3.
As for Nazi Germany vs Fascist Italy or Fascist Spain or any other fascist regime, yes, there were many, and no, Nazi Germany is not the only example to model Fascism on. However, I will agree with monkspider on the fact that sometimes you do need to take public opinion into account, and if you ask any man on the street to name a fascist nation from history (outside of the "man on the street" in Italy), you'll probably get the answer of "Germany" 9 times out of 10, and that is why I do reflect more of Nazi Germany than other nations, it's simply a recognition thing.
Finally, there is such a thing as pleasing all the people, all the time, and as with anything, that's pretty much impossible. Everyone has their own opinions. Everyone sees things in a differant light. I can't make a fascist patch that everyone will always agree with all the time that makes everyone happy, but I do think I can make one that MOST of the people will agree with, and while Monkspider doesn't agree with my interpretation, he obviously has the ability to change it to his own vision, which is what is great about Civ3.
I've gone through all this before with the Civ2 Fascist Patch, and as before, the general consensus of most of the people was that Fascism SHOULD be in-between Communism and Democracy in economy and wartime capability. Yes the Fascist Patch is in v1.0 right now, and will undergo changes... if anything, I will strengthen the wartime capabilities of Communism and weaken Fascism (perhaps lower Fascism's free units and raise Communism's), but I will definately keep the trade bonus for Fascism to recognize it as a viable modern economy, and capable of good research.
World War II has been my hobby for nearly 30 years now, I like to think I know a little something about Nazi Germany, and I think that given the confines of an abstract game like Civ3, I'm as close as I'm going to be, but a few more tweaks may indeed come!
In the meantime, if anyone around here is interested in World War II games and Nazi Germany (or Imperial Japan, or Colonial Britain, or France, you name it), I highly recomend the great game of Pacific General which is FREE these days! I've done a TON of mod work to it, and you can visit my website for PacGen and get the game for free at:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...er/armory.html
So everyone have fun with Civ3, and if you're up for a new challenge, try PacGen too. I'll of course keep working on the Fascist Patch in the meantime!
You like Pac Gen too? and it's free? I have been trying to locate that old game again for years! I assume you are an admirer of all of the 5 star series SSI games? Panzer 1 was probably my most-played game in history and Allied General was great as well. I also think it's great you have engaged in through study in the field of WW II. I am exceptionally interested in the history of the Wehrmacht. I truly admire their ability to fight against all odds, on all fronts, and STILL almost win the war. Most German soldiers were more or less indifferent to the policies of the nazis. Their main concern was the defense of the fatherland, a country so unjustly treated after the treaty of Versailles.
But I again digress, I can respect your placement of Facisism this way, but being a peaceful leftist I tend to assume communism in Civ 3 represents, more or less, the marxist ideal, rather the stalinism or bolshevikism. That's why I have always wanted to see Communism as a sort of middle ground government. But I can see why you would subscribe to a more pessimistic version of Communism as well. In any event, I think we should bring back Fundamentalism as an uber-military government at least, i wish there was a way to give a 1.5 trade bonus or something of the like. As is, there isn't much we can do to differentiate between governments without them being too powerful or not powerful enough.
In any event, I think we need to impose something to make Facisism a bit less powerful, as trade bonus is REALLY powerful, military police is really powerful, and lack of war weariness is realy powerful, and higher corruption isn't quite that much of a disadvantage weighted next to it's many advantages, IMHO. I think we need to do SOMETHING to make Facisism slightly more a "bad guy " government.
Also, when the ability becomes available, it would be great if you could bring back the classic "stormtrooper" unit. Exclusive to the Facisists of course.
Last edited by monkspider; November 10, 2001 at 16:35.
http://monkspider.blogspot.com/
w00t! Now my civ3 experience will be complete! Thanks again for bringing this great patch to civ! oh, how I remember the days (before CTP) where I couldn't play civ2 unless I had the fascist patch.. ehheheh
Yes, I'm big on PacGen too... in fact, probably bigger on it, than on Civilization. I've kept PacGen alive for the past four years long after SSI abandoned the game by maintaining the Armory Website and constantly expanding and improving the game... you can hardly recognize PacGen now over what it was when SSI released it back in '97.
Go to the Armory and download the game for free, then update it with all that is available at the Armory, particularly the Equipment Roster. If you're into Nazi Germany, I highly recomend playing the "Z-Plan" campaign which represents Germany's naval plans before the war with large capital ships. A very interesting campaign.
Properly patched, PacGen is everything PG1 was and more, it's a far better game for both the Pacific and European theatres of war, and has a database from all nations of well over 1,000 units.
Now, back to Civilization (that's what we're here for after all). I will probably weaken Fascism a bit by lowering the number of free units a tad, and perhaps making Communism look better by raising the number of free units as well, this should balance things out a tad bit more.
Futhermore, I will (if it ever happens) reinstate the Stormtrooper if I can in the future, also the "dedicated" tech advance of "Fascism" once we have better editing tools!
Seig Heil to the Fascist Patch
I think that a lot of people are confusing certain things. There is fascism in theory, fascism in practice, and national socialism. What the patch gives is a mix of fascism in theory (the good aspects) and fascism in practice (the corruption and bad aspects, mostly).
Fascism in practice, like in Spain, Italy, and the various authoritarian states of Eastern Europe, is a populist movement composed primarily of lower middle class elements who lost out in the industrial revolution and the Great War and fear the rise of socialist/leftist/communist governments that will give more power to the lower classes and further worsen their economic, social, and political positions. Fascism in practice, save in Germany, is a system of what can be called partial fascism in which the conservatives and old elites ally with the fascist movements in order to suppress the left and destroy democracy, things which both groups want. In practice, (partial) fascism does help the economy (in the short term, though not really in the long term), corruption is rampant, and the regime holds power as long as the conservative allies back them up.
Fascism in theory is a much more nebulous thing based on totalitarian ideas, the so-called leadership principle, and a vague economic policy that was never really defined by the people that thought it up (Mussolini, mostly). Fascism in theory is as different from fascism in practice as communism in theory is from communism in practice (it sounds great and nice and pleasant, but it turns out bad, negative, and nasty).
Then you have national socialism. This is in a league all of its own. National socialism evolved from the state of partial fascism that existed in Germany prior to 1938. The difference between Hitler and Mussolini and Franco is that Hitler managed to get rid of (or coordinate) his conservative allies by destroying their autonomy. While it is true that national socalism's flavor of fascism has a command economy, it also permits the industrialists and others to gain profits by going along with the regime's economic plans. The culminating goal of national socialism is war, thus it lends itself well to massive rearmament programs. The war idea comes from the racial and social darwinistic dynamics which are relatively unique to national socialism. At the same time, corruption within national socialism is extensive and quite hindering. This is due not just to corruption within the state and the party, but (mostly) because of the nature of the state. National socialism creates a wasteful and inefficient bureaucratic jungle in which various leaders are always battling each other for resources. In theory this results in darwinistic evolution of the best and smartest ideas being implemented. In practice it is incredibly wasteful, causing resources to be poorly and inefficiently allocated and the inevitable duplication of programs and agencies that results in even further resource wasting.
So in Civilization 3 terms, fascism in practice would be a strange mix between despotism and republic (the political consequences of one with the economic consequences of the other). National socialism, the "end all bad guy government" would be a government with problematic corruption, slowly stagnating science (the ideology is incredibly anti-intellectual), and a state that effectively exists in a period of unending total war mobilization (can't build improvements or wonders, just military units).
Hmmm... interesting thoughts Scott... well, anyways, the Fascist Patch has now been updated to v1.1 (see first post on thread to update, or visit the official website).
Fascism's free military units have been slightly lowered, while Communism's has been slightly raised to seperate the differances between the two.
Furthermore, national love/hate relationships with governmental forms have been updated to include Fascist preferances.
Good work Wolfy
What do you think of the possibility of raising the corruption a little bit to Monarchy level?
I shall post any possibilities for further tweaking on this thread in the future. By the way, thanks for the PacGen links, i'll definitely check it out.
http://monkspider.blogspot.com/
Corruption and Fascism
Monkspider, that was indeed my original thoughts on Fascism... to give it a decent amount of Corruption, but as with anything, sometimes gameplay has to take precedence over reality.
The whole point of bringing Fascism to the game is to make a PLAYABLE late-game government that is a VIABLE third option to Communism and Democracy.
If you bring TOO MANY downsides to a government, nobody is going to use it, then the question becomes, why even bother doing it, if nobody is going to use it?
I want people to actuallly CONSIDER using Fascism, or the computer AI to do the same, if I cripple the government too much, nobody will touch it with a 10-foot pole, which is EXACTLY the case with Republic late in the game.
Nobody uses Despotism, Republic or Monarchy late in the game because all three have too many drawbacks when compared with either Communism or Democracy. You have three early-game forms of government, but only two late-game forms of government... I wanted at least a third viable option, and that is Fascism.
Now back to my original point, of the three late game governments, Fascism, Democracy and Communism, the government with the worst corruption rate is Fascism, having the same level of corruption as a Republic (which nobody uses in the late game anyways). Don't think of Republic corruption as a modern day Republic, but rather think of it as sharing the same level of corruption as say the Ancient Roman Republic.
Corruption in Civ3 is already far worse a penalty than it ever was in Civ1 or Civ2. Even low-level corruption of Communism and Democracy is VERY problematic in Civ3, so if I further make Fascism's corruption any worse than a government that is already ditched by late game because of corruption (Republic), I turn Fascism into a toothless wonder that nobody in their right mind would ever use.
This is where gameplay concerns have to outweigh trying to make it more accurate. Once again, this is an abstract game, not a university geopolitical 101 class, so I'll take gameplay as a priority here, and make Fascism a VIABLE third option for late game players... I've already balanced out the government with v1.1 and I think it's pretty good right now where it stands... I can't forsee making Fascism any weaker at this point, or once again, the only two good governments to use will be Democracy and/or Communism.
I think in reality that facism is a exellent goverment to have. People always tend to look at hitler and his hatered of jews, rather than what good things the goverment brought germany. Sadly we live in a age where people would rather be politicaly correct than hurt someone's feelings. Please dont get me wrong im not a racist I make decisions on facts not fiction. Picture yourself in post world war germany. Nations have imposed santions and restrictions on your country so bad most people cant even afford bread. Not only that but every nation throws your country's name in the dirt from defeat of the first world war. You yourself feel defeated worthless and weak. Then suddenly a man named hitler who is leading a party called the national socialist german worker's party tells you that you are superior to all those who have mocked you and that your rightful place is ruler of the world. He not only says that the sanctions against you and your homeland are wrong he delibertley defies the sanctions by rearming the german army above the imposed 100,000 man limit, a restriction in the versalies treaty. Thats what most people dont understand about nazi germany, the first thing they say is (how could this happen?) well for one most people have never lived in a nation that was defeated in a world war and on the brink of collapse by sanctions imposed by other nations. germany was also one of the most advanced nations in the war if not the most advanced. i read in a previous post someone saying that facism had very weak intelligence capabilities, thats bullcrap. i dont know about you but im going to be honest if i lived in that time i would have been a nazi too for the simple fact it produced quick results that saved the country from starvation and poverty. Most americans are so spoiled and pampered i think it would do them good to go live in some of the third world countries and see what life is like there. they dont know what blood was shed to have the blanket of freedom that they so carelessly take for granite. anyway sorry for this being so long guess i got carried away.
"How must the man be constituted who will lead Germany back to her old heights?" The man, should be a dictator not averse to the use of slogans, street parades and demagoguery. He must be a man of the people yet have nothing in common with the mass. Like every great man, he must be "all personality," and one who"does not shrink from bloodshed. Great questions are always decided by blood and iron." To reach his goal, he must be prepared "to trample on his closest friends," dispense law "with terrible hardness" and deal with people and nations "with cautious and sensitive fingers" or if need be "trample on them with the boots of a grenadier." ---Rudolf Hess
That's a cool facist patch website, now if we only had SS infantry graphics for the game.....
Why thank you... the site is of course at:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...r/homepage.htm
Originally posted by facistdictator
I think in reality that facism is a exellent goverment to have. People always tend to look at hitler and his hatered of jews, rather than what good things the goverment brought germany. Sadly we live in a age where people would rather be politicaly correct than hurt someone's feelings. Please dont get me wrong im not a racist I make decisions on facts not fiction. Picture yourself in post world war germany. Nations have imposed santions and restrictions on your country so bad most people cant even afford bread. Not only that but every nation throws your country's name in the dirt from defeat of the first world war. You yourself feel defeated worthless and weak. Then suddenly a man named hitler who is leading a party called the national socialist german worker's party tells you that you are superior to all those who have mocked you and that your rightful place is ruler of the world. He not only says that the sanctions against you and your homeland are wrong he delibertley defies the sanctions by rearming the german army above the imposed 100,000 man limit, a restriction in the versalies treaty. Thats what most people dont understand about nazi germany, the first thing they say is (how could this happen?) well for one most people have never lived in a nation that was defeated in a world war and on the brink of collapse by sanctions imposed by other nations. germany was also one of the most advanced nations in the war if not the most advanced. i read in a previous post someone saying that facism had very weak intelligence capabilities, thats bullcrap. i dont know about you but im going to be honest if i lived in that time i would have been a nazi too for the simple fact it produced quick results that saved the country from starvation and poverty. Most americans are so spoiled and pampered i think it would do them good to go live in some of the third world countries and see what life is like there. they dont know what blood was shed to have the blanket of freedom that they so carelessly take for granite. anyway sorry for this being so long guess i got carried away.
In spite of personally despising Fascism, I find that you make some very good points. I have always admired the Wehrmacht in a way, since they were sort of like a kid who was always picked on at the playground and grew up to beat up the bullys who always picked on him. Germany was fighting nearly every other country in the world and STILL almost won simply due to their merits of superior tactics and pride in their country. I think you are right on, if Germany were justly treated after WW I, WW II probably would have likely never occured.
http://monkspider.blogspot.com/
In spite of personally despising Fascism, I find that you make some very good points. I have always admired the Wehrmacht in a way, since they were sort of like a kid who was always picked on at the playground and grew up to beat up the bullys who always picked on him. Germany was fighting nearly every other country in the world and STILL almost won simply due to their merits of superior tactics and pride in their country. I think you are right on, if Germany were justly treated after WW I, WW II probably would have likely never occured Thanx man! Wolfshanze this is just a thought. It may have already been posted but you ever thought about adding a special wonder for a facist goverment like maybe the autobon or something and maybe for that matter a special wonder for each individual goverment. Like maybe the Kremlin for the communist, Statue of liberty for democracy, and lets say maybe a great republic hall for republic.
"How must the man be constituted who will lead Germany back to her old heights?" The man, should be a dictator not averse to the use of slogans, street parades and demagoguery. He must be a man of the people yet have nothing in common with the mass. Like every great man, he must be "all personality," and one who"does not shrink from bloodshed. Great questions are always decided by blood and iron." To reach his goal, he must be prepared "to trample on his closest friends," dispense law "with terrible hardness" and deal with people and nations "with cautious and sensitive fingers" or if need be "trample on them with the boots of a grenadier." ---Rudolf Hess
Now releasing v1.2
New changes include:
Updated Civilopedia
Balancing of Naval Units (see below):
NAVAL UNIT CHANGES
Old Unit Values
Attack/Defend/Move
Galley 1/1/3
Caravel 1/1/2
Galleon 1/2/4
Privateer* 1/1/3
Frigate 2/2/4
Man-O-War 3/2/4
Ironclad 4/4/4
Transport 1/4/5
Carrier 1/8/4
Sub* 6/4/3
Destroyer* 12/8/5
Battleship 18/12/5
Aegis Cruiser 12/10/5
Nuke Sub 6/4/3
New Unit Values
Attack/Defend/Move
Galley 1/1/3
Caravel 1/1/2
Galleon 2/3/4
Privateer* 3/2/4
Frigate 4/3/4
Man-O-War 5/3/4
Ironclad 6/6/4
Transport 1/5/5
Carrier 2/9/5
Sub* 8/6/4
Destroyer* 12/8/5
Battleship 18/12/4
Aegis Cruiser 14/10/5
Nuke Sub 10/8/5
SPECIAL NOTES
*Privateer now costs 40 shields instead of 50 and has weak bombardment capability
*Sub no longer can see other subs
*Destroyer can now see subs
You can download it on the official website, or the updated first post on this forum.
Last edited by Wolfshanze; November 12, 2001 at 22:47.
Wolfshanze -- how did you create the fascist govt? I'm interested to know because when I get my copy of Civ3 (Friday), I want to create some more govt. types--theocracy, military dictatorship, etc. Or is is done simply through the editor...?
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Last edited by David Murray; November 13, 2001 at 02:56.
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