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  • #16
    In Germany it was supressed, but there were germans who went against the Nazis and even an attempted coup. In Russia, I believ you were refferring to when Stalin was in control? Even at that point, there were many secret orginazations that pervayed and continued their traditioal philosophies and religions. Sure, they were heavily supressed, but never erradicated because they simply began to hide themselves better and better. The point in time i was reffering to was Japan in the latter part of the Meiji Restoriation. This took generations to achieve and they did so by killing off any even slightly possible person who'd rally them against the emperor. Even so, although every japanese person was behind the emperor, he was not able to erradicate their philosophies they've been attached to for generations, merely surpress they in the form of a religious patriotism and fear to those that would openly practice those practices that were banned.
    Which Love Hina Girl Are You?
    Mitsumi Otohime
    Oh dear! Are you even sure you answered the questions correctly?) Underneath your confused exterior, you hold fast to your certainties and seek to find the truth about the things you don't know. While you may not be brimming with confidence and energy, you are content with who you are and accepting of both your faults and the faults of others. But while those around you love you deep down, they may find your nonchalance somewhat infuriating. Try to put a bit more thought into what you are doing, and be more aware of your surroundings.

    Comment


    • #17
      Comments:

      On LGJ's Ethnic Tolerance: I believe you're right, but I'm scared it'd be difficult to model. An EG should have to compare itself with the rest to determine if others are more powerful in order to simulate a feeling of inferiority. And that's a lot of comparisons (too expensive).

      On LGJ's Aggressiveness: I agree you can be so peaceful that you avoid confrontations so much that you can consider the culture is submissive because it is willing to accept "bad" treaties in order to preserve peace. I think you have a good point.

      On LGJ and Mark's comments on Nationality: I don't see any problem. When french are conquered by the germans, they remain as french (that's because nationality in the model represent the nation the EG feels it belongs to and does not indicate the nation where it lives in or the nation it legally belongs to). Their high nationalism (that's in reference to their (french) nationailty) will make'em hate the german rule or any other foreign govt coming in. And they won't rebel against a french govt if it's able to liberate the territory. If the germans are able to retain power over France, as time passes the new generations don't feel nationalistic as their ancestors did, mainly because the new german rule encourages the german nationality (assuming germans apply little or null discrimination, thus encouraging nationality shift). This is simulated through a slowly decrease in Nationalism in french EGs. With enough time, nationalism in french EGs will be so slow that new generations will feel they're germans rather than french and the french EGs will start to disappear.

      On LGJ's religion branches: Religions that are part of the same family have the same family value. All the rest attributes can be different, including the attractiveness values.

      LGJ:
      1> I still don't see how new EG can be created except if they are conquered (partly) by another nation or part of them move to a new area. I guess I'm wondering how a EG could split in two because of a religious differance or whatnot. And also when would the split occur?
      a) If an existing EG feels attracted to another religion, then a "split" occurs (new EG created) if there's no EG with the same nationality and having the attractive religion.
      b) If the govt encourages nationality X with sufficient power in a given province, then there should be as many EGs with nationality X as different religions currently are. If currently there're less than that number, the game will create them.
      c) Migrations will create new EGs if there're no EGs in the destination with the same nationality and religion.

      LGJ:
      2> Also why can't a ruler force 1 ER over his entire country if his control is high enough and/or try to spread it 'by the sword'? The is certainly historically accurate.
      I don't understand the question.

      On LGJ's QER: I think that's an unnecessary level of model detail.

      Mark: No, there's no math available yet.

      KrikkitOne:
      I assume that the Land Attachment can decrease due to migrations?
      Exactly. I forgot to mention it in the model, but when migrations take place, Land Connection goes to zero (more radical than you proposed, but it could be implemented like you say when the migrations model is created).


      On philosophy: I don't think philosophies are needed. They may be a nice addition, but I don't see any reason for considering they have to be there.

      I disagree with the comments about humanism or other philosophical thoughts being the ethical frameworks of the modern world. All of us got our morals from our parents and they in time from theirs. These morals have their base mainly on religion, tradition (that in time is, again, influenced by religion and how it was practiced/interpreted in the past) and common sense (whatever that means). Religion may have lost prominence in modern times, but it hasn't been replaced by other forms of thinking when it comes to moral codes. We can't say humanism has replaced religion in modern times. Not in a demographically relevant magnitude, at least, because most of the people in the world today embrace some form of religion. Also, in most humanist philosophies references to God and the divine remain, showing religion is still the base of moral codes, just with new interpretations. Something like humanism had its biggest influence in the development of democratic and socialist ideas rather than "converting" people from religious beliefs to humanism.

      With the exception of confucianism, I don't see people taking philosophies as codes of conduct. I don't see people defining themselves as "Kantian" or "Platonic". I think players would find it very weird if his EGs are "Aristotelic". In other words, people don't pick a philosophy as they do with religions. I don't think we should model philosophies as we're doing with religions.

      Comment


      • #18
        Hey Rodrigo:

        Thanks for all the comments. I at least would like to get the Society model stuff into D6 fairly soon, so getting the math going for all the model interactions is fairly high priority IMO.

        When french are conquered by the germans, they remain as french (that's because nationality in the model represent the nation the EG feels it belongs to and does not indicate the nation where it lives in or the nation it legally belongs to).
        On re-reading the model this is clear from context around the middle of section IV, don 't know how I missed it! Thanks for tutoring us backwards kids . But the fact that both LGJ and I missed it makes me thing you should put this sentence right in the intro bit on Nationality.

        I still disagree about philosophies, but if I turn out to be right, it is a quick fix later, and if I'm wrong we can save a lot of time by not discussing it to death now!
        Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
        A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
        Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

        Comment


        • #19
          On LGJ's Ethnic Tolerance: I believe you're right, but I'm scared it'd be difficult to model. An EG should have to compare itself with the rest to determine if others are more powerful in order to simulate a feeling of inferiority. And that's a lot of comparisons (too expensive).
          Ok. That wasn't my most important concern, so it can be put on hold till we have more details as to just how complex and stenuous it'd be.

          On LGJ and Mark's comments on Nationality: I don't see any problem. When french are conquered by the germans, they remain as french (that's because nationality in the model represent the nation the EG feels it belongs to and does not indicate the nation where it lives in or the nation it legally belongs to). Their high nationalism (that's in reference to their (french) nationailty) will make'em hate the german rule or any other foreign govt coming in. And they won't rebel against a french govt if it's able to liberate the territory. If the germans are able to retain power over France, as time passes the new generations don't feel nationalistic as their ancestors did, mainly because the new german rule encourages the german nationality (assuming germans apply little or null discrimination, thus encouraging nationality shift). This is simulated through a slowly decrease in Nationalism in french EGs. With enough time, nationalism in french EGs will be so slow that new generations will feel they're germans rather than french and the french EGs will start to disappear.
          Yea as mark said, you should make it easier to read and not so hidden.

          LGJ:

          I don't understand the question.

          On LGJ's QER: I think that's an unnecessary level of model detail.

          Mark: No, there's no math available yet.
          Fist off i was concerned about if as the ruler of my country with, for simplicity, there were 3 EG, 2 with their own ER (ER1 and ER2) and 1 with an MER. How could I, as the ruler (assuming i have virtually 100% Pol. Power) force ER1 as the national religon and do a forced conversion of ER2 and the MER? How could i, in a kinda religious zealous, attempt to spread ER1 beyond the area i control to other EGs? As soon as it spread beyond 1 EG would ER1 become an MER?

          As to my second point, i think it is vital. the fact that every single religon beyond the very first ones has adapted in effect to stave off attempts to convert its population to the new religon is not at all represented here. Sorry if this sounds kinda rude, but you seem to be ignoring this extremly important part of the evoultion of religons. My proposal might be a little to bogged down (I really don't think so), but it is nessasry to give atleast a somewhat accuract example of how religions react when they come in contact with one another.

          With the exception of confucianism, I don't see people taking philosophies as codes of conduct. I don't see people defining themselves as "Kantian" or "Platonic". I think players would find it very weird if his EGs are "Aristotelic". In other words, people don't pick a philosophy as they do with religions. I don't think we should model philosophies as we're doing with religions.
          Still Confuscianism was the foundation of most Far East countries...you'd be loosing a lot to take something like that out.
          Which Love Hina Girl Are You?
          Mitsumi Otohime
          Oh dear! Are you even sure you answered the questions correctly?) Underneath your confused exterior, you hold fast to your certainties and seek to find the truth about the things you don't know. While you may not be brimming with confidence and energy, you are content with who you are and accepting of both your faults and the faults of others. But while those around you love you deep down, they may find your nonchalance somewhat infuriating. Try to put a bit more thought into what you are doing, and be more aware of your surroundings.

          Comment


          • #20
            These morals have their base mainly on religion, tradition (that in time is, again, influenced by religion and how it was practiced/interpreted in the past) and common sense (whatever that means). Religion may have lost prominence in modern times, but it hasn't been replaced by other forms of thinking when it comes to moral codes.
            I disagree. The French revolution promoted laicism, and the humanism that was promoted around that time is at the core of the French moral codes, at least as much as the dominant religion (christianism). References to God were clearly absent in French humanism, because the clergy was hated by most humanists, and the revolution was as much against the clergy as against the nobles. Revolutionaries even tried to create a new religion (with a goddess and no god), but that didn't work. Still, French ethics and morals, notions like equality and freedom, are rooted as deeply in the humanism as they are in christianism. Considering the number of people who in France, would say they are christian if you insisted they tell you their religion, not one half go to church, and many haven't even been baptised, so maybe
            most of the people in the world today embrace some form of religion
            but that religion may not be as relevant as their philosophy as far as these people live everyday life.
            Clash of Civilization team member
            (a civ-like game whose goal is low micromanagement and good AI)
            web site http://clash.apolyton.net/frame/index.shtml and forum here on apolyton)

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            • #21
              I think they would simply have a VERY Low Religious Affinity. Religion would have already made its impact on their culture, and their culture continues as it is without an impact from religion (only form other external forces) after al an EG still has "values" before and without religion, religion is just an extra influence.

              Comment


              • #22
                Hey roquijad, I just read the new social model. A couple of things that come to mind:

                -what happened to the migrations sub-model? If you really don't have time for it I could help you out if you want.

                -I somewhat disagree when you separate the basic attributes from the moral code attributes. Presonally I believe all attributes should be somewhat influenced by religions and philosophies. For example, the religion importance attribute would be changed a big deal by philosophy, as well as nationalism. Corruption should be very heavily influenced by religion.

                I don't have much time now, I'll post something more exhaustive later.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by KrikkitOne
                  I think they would simply have a VERY Low Religious Affinity. Religion would have already made its impact on their culture, and their culture continues as it is without an impact from religion (only form other external forces) after al an EG still has "values" before and without religion, religion is just an extra influence.
                  I agree. What else are philosophies than a wording and manifestation of culture? The 'importance of religion' attribute should indicate to what extent a religion influences attributes.

                  Religions should also change under the influence of dominant ethnic groups (though not too much). The rate determined by 'Ethnic Tolerance' and logically also traditionalism: traditionalist religions seek to preserve their current structure.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Sorry for being away so long.

                    Lordy: I understand now your ER1/ER2/ME scenario. When the govt has an official religion, the "faith points" for that religion increases, making it more attractive. FPs are also augmented the more religious infra (churches) of that religion exists. Finally, the Religious Discrimination govt policy decrease faith points of other beliefs (so it is a form of "by the sword" conversion). So, as a ruler you can encourage a given religion (be it ER or ME) through your control of govt, its policies and investements.

                    And no, an ER can never become a ME. And you cannot make ERs spread to other territories, because by definition they can't spread to other EGs.

                    As to my second point, i think it is vital.
                    Well, we disagree. Don't get me wrong. I think your view is historically more accurate than my aproach. It's just that I don't think is mandatory to model it and we can take a simpler road.

                    Still Confuscianism was the foundation of most Far East countries...you'd be loosing a lot to take something like that out.
                    Yes, and I don't want to lose it. That's why I introduced the idea of philosophies in the new model in the first place. With the system I propose Confucianism would be there, not exactly as in RL, but there after all. And w/o forcing other EGs to be "Platonic" or strange things like that. It's a compromise.

                    LDiCesare: I just feel humanism didn't start out of no-where. Even if a form of humanism rejects religion, it's not true its doctrine is free from religious influences. I'm atheist and I actually profoundly dislike catholicism (the dominant religion in my country), yet my morals are pretty similar to those of a catholic. Something tells me this is no coincidence....

                    Mikael:
                    1) It's true, the division of attributes has some flaws, but I feel I'm not losing nothing big, while this structure greatly helps model attributes evolution.

                    2) At some point in the discussions, long ago, I decided to leave migrations out of the model. There should be a migrations models to handle it. If you want to get into it, go for it. But I can't involve in that because I can't take responsability for more models. I of course can give you my opinions on the subject if you start modeling it, but no more..

                    Mark:
                    I at least would like to get the Society model stuff into D6 fairly soon, so getting the math going for all the model interactions is fairly high priority IMO.
                    Ok. I don't know exactly when I'm gonna have the time to do it, but I can promise social model maths (just this model) for two more weekends or less.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      And no, an ER can never become a ME. And you cannot make ERs spread to other territories, because by definition they can't spread to other EGs.
                      That sux. But my follow up question is, can 2 differnt EG share the same ER because you force it within your own contry. This wouldn't be the same as am MER because it can't be spread beyond your domain of control.

                      Well, we disagree. Don't get me wrong. I think your view is historically more accurate than my aproach. It's just that I don't think is mandatory to model it and we can take a simpler road.
                      I disagree, mainly because i think that eventually all ERs will be wiped out, and prob long before they were IRL. Anyway I still think you shouldn't completely dismiss it.

                      country), yet my morals are pretty similar to those of a catholic. Something tells me this is no coincidence....
                      To some extent it is. I for one live in a predomiatly Protistant/Catholic country and am a Secular Taoist and I reject virtually everything they say.
                      Which Love Hina Girl Are You?
                      Mitsumi Otohime
                      Oh dear! Are you even sure you answered the questions correctly?) Underneath your confused exterior, you hold fast to your certainties and seek to find the truth about the things you don't know. While you may not be brimming with confidence and energy, you are content with who you are and accepting of both your faults and the faults of others. But while those around you love you deep down, they may find your nonchalance somewhat infuriating. Try to put a bit more thought into what you are doing, and be more aware of your surroundings.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by roquijad
                        Ok. I don't know exactly when I'm gonna have the time to do it, but I can promise social model maths (just this model) for two more weekends or less.
                        Sounds great. I think it will probably be at least a few weeks before we're ready for it anyway. (As we have agreed, the first step will just be to port over the old Govt/Social code with relatively little modification.) But I'm hoping that within a month or six weeks we'll be ready for the new math in all the models.
                        Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
                        A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
                        Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Announcement

                          A Social Model "technical" document is now available (model equations). I just sent it to Dom and it should be up in the web site pretty soon.

                          The document was made only for coding purposes, so there're no explanations for the calculations included. It won't increase your knowledge about the model because it's made for coders. If you want to know what the model does, its assumptions, what determines variable values, etc, then you should go to the descriptive document (the one already posted and commented in this thread).

                          The variables used in the model are listed in the "Coding the Society Model Structure" document along with the variables used for the riots and govt models. The social model technical doc describes how these variables are combined.

                          When I was writting the equations I realized a couple variables were missing in the "Coding the Society Model Structure" document, so I had to update it. The new version (2) of this document will be up soon because I sent it to Dom too.
                          Last edited by roquijad; November 25, 2001, 17:22.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I saw a discussion in the alt civs forum where one individual asked "why religions" in terms of what is the Fun of religions. While looking over the social model to see if we have a strong answer (I didn't find one that's really strong) I came across something else I felt I should comment on.

                            Corruption: Defined by the size of govt's bureaucracy, govt's administration effectiveness and quality of Media coverage, measured by a Media Tech level and the Civil Rights govt's policy (to determine the liberty with which media runs). The level of bribes used by the ruler is also considered, reflecting how it can corrupt society downwards.
                            It has always been my thought that one of the largest contributors to corruption is the autocratic nature of the government. IMO the more concentrated power is the faster should be the slide toward a corrupt society. I think that effect is more important than any of the features you cited as the ones that increase corruption. Power that is distributed demographically, geographically, or both is the crucial element in reducing corruption.
                            Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
                            A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
                            Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              There should also be something measuring various control mechanisms (elections, media, separation of powers, etc.).

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Mark:
                                I agree with you, but with 2 exceptions. 1: It should not be considered as concentrated on a person, rather a body of indivisuals as a whole. 2: We need some way to demostrate a ruler(s) attempts to stamp out corruption.
                                Which Love Hina Girl Are You?
                                Mitsumi Otohime
                                Oh dear! Are you even sure you answered the questions correctly?) Underneath your confused exterior, you hold fast to your certainties and seek to find the truth about the things you don't know. While you may not be brimming with confidence and energy, you are content with who you are and accepting of both your faults and the faults of others. But while those around you love you deep down, they may find your nonchalance somewhat infuriating. Try to put a bit more thought into what you are doing, and be more aware of your surroundings.

                                Comment

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