Pope: Catholics should ask gay people for forgiveness

[Ben Kenobi]

You see them as unreasonable... The legal system doesn't.

Over a 20 dollar cake? Yep.

It doesn't matter what you or I think, that's what was imposed.

It matters quite a bit, actually. 8th prevails.

And those that support gay marriages are also supporting the law of the land. And frankly, if you think it's immoral, that's simple just your opinion and doesn't make it immoral.

And legality doesn't equal morality. Lots of things were legal, like slavery. Didn't make them anymore moral than this.

You ignore stuff from the bible and you claim to be a Christian... it's a two edged sword.

Uh, I'm not the one quoting the stuff I disagree with in the bible - you are. Are you no longer a Christian, Ming?

You only believe that your Morality is the right morality.

Curious. You're a Catholic who doesn't believe in traditional marriage? If it's what the Church teaches, then it's not my personal belief or opinion. If you're arguing that it is, then you're not Catholic because you don't understand what the church teaches.

Either way.

Bad analogy. They are going to get married whether you are there or not... You not being there changes nothing.

Yes, just like me not going on the gambling trips doesn't change anything. The result is that you're still taking a gambling addict to a casino and trying to shame those who are not participating.

In your world, they are going to hell anyway. So why don't you just support your family.

I have a Christian duty to try to keep people OUT of hell. Which, you would know if you were Christian...

Why are you the member of a religion you regard as evil?

Then fine, believe in your own version of morality... but let other practice what they believe. Fair is Fair. You don't have a lock on morality.

It's not my own morality. It is what the Catholic church teaches. Why should your version of morality prevail?

The laws were changed later, just like slavery was made illegal, and women were given the right to vote...

Then legality does not equal morality.

But right now, they lost their first appeal, and may or may not continue...

You'd be arguing after Dred Scott that 'justice' prevailed. You might want to think about that argument....

I don't know... I don't have the full list of all the cases of people sentenced for sodomy... and I have no intention of looking them.

So. You tell me that homosexual people have it so hard in the world, and you can't name a single one that was arrested, or how long their sentences were. I would suggest that speaks volumes to the contrary. There is no legal persecution going on.

I suggest either you or Gian actually take the time to dig up some evidence before claiming 'persecution' which does not exist.

Would you agree the bakers should go to jail?

No, because the First prevails.

If it violated the rules of the site why did they accept the application for crowdfunding? I don't know... but it was clearly against site rules, and the site acted accordingly.

I know the answer to this question. The rules were changed after the crowdfunding application was approved.

Personally, I hope the fines are going to drastically change people's opinions.

They are - not in your favor. People do not believe that other people's lives should be destroyed over a 20 dollar cake.

No, I don't. It was the choice of the Catholic Institutions in Massachusetts to not follow the law.

Then you are playing politics with the lives of children, Ming. You are saying that unless they follow the rules, that takes priority over placing a child in a loving home.

[Ben Kenobi]

Except by doing so the baker violated the law. Learn that please. Read up on the law.

You're arguing then that the black baker must supply a KKKake?

Because it has to do with the law and providing equal treatment.

Thank you. It had nothing to do with the cake. It was about targeting a Christian businesslady. Apparently her right to run her business is less important than shaming a lady businessowner (last I checked a minority as well) and fining her into oblivion.

Why should I side with your minority over her minority?

Tolerant to what?

Tolerant to a Christian businesslady.

I value tolerance more than you and accept people as they are. You espouse downright venom and hatred towards LGBT people.

If you 'accept people as they are', why are you not accepting a Christian businesslady?

Why should I answer that BS question? A KKK member is holding an opinion. It has nothing to do with same sex couples.

Answer the question, Gian.

They aren't the same.

Legally, they are the same. You talk about the law, Gian? You say that a public business should be allowed to decline business that it does not want?

A KKK member adopted a hateful opinion.

And there we go. Finally. Then the Christian baker has no obligation to accept work that they do not want.

You can't have it both ways, Gian. Either you have one or the other. Personally, I think it's better for homosexual people to just bite the bullet and accept that somebody doesn't love Raymond. But then what do I know? I'm a member of a minority that puts his head down and works.

And takes yer jerbs!

[Ben Kenobi]

AND ONE MORE TIME< I"M PROUD that I didn't accept it. SO YOU"RE NOT SHAMING ME.

Mhmm. And if I were ashamed about my decision, why did I bring it up?

I am trying to shame you because you're a monster who won't support a brother and more importantly wouldn't support a daughter not even born for the simple offense that she was gay.

There is a distinction between my daughter and what she chooses to do. There is a distinction between my brother and what he chooses to do. I can tell my brother that I love him and I always will, but that doesn't mean that I love what he chooses to do. Same with him and me.

And you don't even realize how big of a monster that makes you.

No, rah. You don't realize what you are doing to the other person.

You don't deserve to procreate and you'll probably have to lie to a women to get her to marry her. Don't forget to tell the future mrs BK that if she has gay children, that you will treat them worse than a dog.

What makes you think she would go? You never answered that question.

A gift is supposed to be without strings, yet you prove every time you post that strings were attached.

Yes, because sending me a PM is an outrageous expectation...

You have no honor.

My conscience is clear.

You are an unfit brother, and will make a very unfit father. Because you will put God before them. Monster.

And God is quite clear about that. God comes first.

And the funniest thing is that I never once used the word bribe until you broke your promise and made it public. SO F*** OFF

Why didn't you PM me to tell me? You were afraid of offending me? Bull****. You said you had no respect for me, so why would you bother PM someone you had no respect for?

[Giancarlo]

You're arguing then that the black baker must supply a KKKake?



Thank you. It had nothing to do with the cake. It was about targeting a Christian businesslady. Apparently her right to run her business is less important than shaming a lady businessowner (last I checked a minority as well) and fining her into oblivion.

Why should I side with your minority over her minority?



Tolerant to a Christian businesslady.



If you 'accept people as they are', why are you not accepting a Christian businesslady?



Answer the question, Gian.



Legally, they are the same. You talk about the law, Gian? You say that a public business should be allowed to decline business that it does not want?



And there we go. Finally. Then the Christian baker has no obligation to accept work that they do not want.

You can't have it both ways, Gian. Either you have one or the other. Personally, I think it's better for homosexual people to just bite the bullet and accept that somebody doesn't love Raymond. But then what do I know? I'm a member of a minority that puts his head down and works.

And takes yer jerbs!

Oh but the law doesn't see it that way at all. You keep posting the same nonsense as you have for years. You are an awful person. Innate and immutable characteristics and traits are protected under the law. Opinions are like... Well you know the saying. You talking about a KKK cake shows how silly and infantile your argument really is.

You have no argument, and you only showed how awful of a human being you are. I have no other words to describe your hate and vindictive attitude towards others. Your ****ing opinions are yours alone. The fact I am gay is innate and I never chose to be this way. I just am.

Your feign illogic and flailing words mean little to me or anyone else. Your opinions are utter BS and under no circumstance will I ever be accepting of them. You chose to be an ignorant bigot, as did I 13 years ago. The only difference here is I grew up and realized how wrong I was. I also knew being gay will never change. I was born this way. You weren't born a Christian and you weren't born with those deplorable opinions.

[rah]

Mhmm. And if I were ashamed about my decision, why did I bring it up?

I have no idea. You broke your word of honor to do it.

There is a distinction between my daughter and what she chooses to do. There is a distinction between my brother and what he chooses to do. I can tell my brother that I love him and I always will, but that doesn't mean that I love what he chooses to do. Same with him and me.

And you can be clueless on how much your actions will hurt them. That is not love in anybodies book. It is petty hatred.

No, rah. You don't realize what you are doing to the other person.

I'm very clear on it. I'm calling you out as an honorless monster.

What makes you think she would go? You never answered that question.

I've know many fathers that were monsters like you, but almost all of their wives were accepting. So the odds would be in my favor.

Yes, because sending me a PM is an outrageous expectation...

Guilty, but I thought silence was better. Pretty low on the monster scale. Unlike you.
And I will bring it up again and again EVERY time you break your word and mention it.

My conscience is clear.

I would expect that from a heartless monster.

And God is quite clear about that. God comes first.

If your daughter committed suicide because you rejected her, I'm sure that would comfort you.

Why didn't you PM me to tell me? You were afraid of offending me? Bull****. You said you had no respect for me, so why would you bother PM someone you had no respect for?

Again, a poor decision. A minor mistake compared to the bigotry you show ever day.

I still don't respect you. And looking forward to mentioning it again and again due to your lack of honor and stubbornness.

Monster.

[Giancarlo]

BK, your God is a murdering bigot along the lines of Pinochet. I am glad your God doesn't exist.

[Giancarlo]

You want to know why I was the person I was years ago? I was a weak coward who didn't know what love was. I had a few relationships that didn't work out, but then I found someone that I deeply care about. You can't even view that validity of that because he is the same sex as me.

I will forever be stronger than you BK, as is every other who views love and respect as honorable.

[Ming]

Over a 20 dollar cake? Yep.

It's not about a 20 dollar cake, it's about the discrimination. They broke the law. You and they may not like the law, but it is the law.

It matters quite a bit, actually. 8th prevails.

That's only your opinion. So far the courts disagree with you.

And legality doesn't equal morality. Lots of things were legal, like slavery. Didn't make them anymore moral than this.

Yet one more time... just your opinion/morality.

Uh, I'm not the one quoting the stuff I disagree with in the bible - you are. Are you no longer a Christian, Ming?

You are the one ignoring stuff in the the bible you disagree with... are you no longer a Christian BK?

Curious. You're a Catholic who doesn't believe in traditional marriage? If it's what the Church teaches, then it's not my personal belief or opinion. If you're arguing that it is, then you're not Catholic because you don't understand what the church teaches.

Gee... I have a traditional marriage... Been married over 30 years... It is what the Church teaches. But I believe in freedom, which you obviously don't. Anybody that is not a Catholic can follow their religious teachings. And when gays get married because it is their moral code, who am I stop to them. You are more then welcome to believe they are sinners... and that they are going to hell. And they are free to believe that you are wrong. Nobody is forcing you to be gay. But the law of the land allows them to get married.
The law doesn't allow you to discriminate.

Yes, just like me not going on the gambling trips doesn't change anything. The result is that you're still taking a gambling addict to a casino and trying to shame those who are not participating.

Family is the most important thing... maybe someday when you have one you will understand that.
And one more time, being their or not will not change the fact they are getting married or that they are gay. You will hurt them deeply by not attending. But I guess family means nothing to you. Remember, they are already going to hell in your opinion, that doesn't mean that you have to pile on the hate as well.

I have a Christian duty to try to keep people OUT of hell. Which, you would know if you were Christian...

You have a Catholic duty to help other Catholics to stay true to their teachings. Religious freedom means they can follow their own religion.
They may feel you are the one going to hell because you have turned your back on your family.

It's not my own morality. It is what the Catholic church teaches. Why should your version of morality prevail?

And other religions have their own morality. The Catholic religion is not the only religion. You may think the Catholic religion is the true religion, but so do they.
Religions freedom means you can believe in your religion, and they can believe in theirs.

Then legality does not equal morality.

Nobody is saying that you can't believe in your morality... but you are asked to follow the laws of the land. You are welcome to break those laws, but then you must be willing to pay the price.

You'd be arguing after Dred Scott that 'justice' prevailed. You might want to think about that argument....

Bad logic... simply because some past laws were bad, doesn't automatically make the current laws bad. Slavery was overturned, Women now have equal right, and other bad laws have overturned. Your logic is wrong. Simply because some past laws were wrong, it doesn't invalidate all current laws.

So. You tell me that homosexual people have it so hard in the world, and you can't name a single one that was arrested, or how long their sentences were. I would suggest that speaks volumes to the contrary. There is no legal persecution going on.
I suggest either you or Gian actually take the time to dig up some evidence before claiming 'persecution' which does not exist.

So, you are claiming that gay persecution doesn't exist? WOW!
Why don't you prove that it doesn't exist.

No, because the First prevails.

The courts disagree with you so far.

I know the answer to this question. The rules were changed after the crowdfunding application was approved.

No they weren't. All the stories I saw on it support that the rule was in place. It was enforced after the site became aware of it.
Feel free to provide valid evidence to prove that the rule was added after the fact.

They are - not in your favor. People do not believe that other people's lives should be destroyed over a 20 dollar cake.

Only bigots believe that they should be allowed to discriminate. Many people's lives are destroyed when they break the law. But they are the ones that destroyed their own lives by breaking the law. Yeah, a bunch of bigots will whine about this, and they are welcome to their bigoted opinions. And maybe the next time a bigot wants to break the law and discriminate against somebody they will think twice.

Then you are playing politics with the lives of children, Ming. You are saying that unless they follow the rules, that takes priority over placing a child in a loving home.

Catholics don't have to allow gays the Catholics sacrament of marriage. Nobody is forcing them to (and stop with the Nazi scare tactics that it is coming... simply fear mongering... when it happens, you can claim you are so right, but don't hold your breath) But gay marriage is legal, and many religions support it.
The state is asking institutions to follow the law. In some states, Catholic institutions have simply closed down to avoid breaking the law. In cases when they don't, the state has closed them down for breaking the law. The Catholic institutions are the ones that are not willing to place children in loving homes. They are even going so far as breaking the law to deny children the right to a loving home. It is your right as a American to protest the law... It is your right to try to change the law... but if you break the law, you will "do the time", just like anybody else. It's the Catholic institutions that are playing politics, and they don't care if the children suffer.

[Giancarlo]

BK views gay people the same as slave owners. What a surprise. Is this man related to the orange Oompa Loompa running for office?

Same sex marriage is legal and many choose to go directly to the county for it. Marriage is a civil state institution. BK is getting confused with a wedding ceremony (which may or may not be religious).

[Ben Kenobi]

Oh but the law doesn't see it that way at all. You keep posting the same nonsense as you have for years. You are an awful person. Innate and immutable characteristics and traits are protected under the law. Opinions are like... Well you know the saying. You talking about a KKK cake shows how silly and infantile your argument really is.

Opinions are protected under the First Amendment. That a business got fined for declining to participate in an event off the property of the business, really isn't going to fly. The business supplied a cake.

You have no argument, and you only showed how awful of a human being you are. I have no other words to describe your hate and vindictive attitude towards others. Your ****ing opinions are yours alone. The fact I am gay is innate and I never chose to be this way. I just am.

You're welcome to assert that I have no argument. However - if a business is permitted to decline work that it does not want, then that sword cuts both ways. What you want is to be able to discriminate against people and ideas that you don't personally like - while at the same time fining those into oblivion if they decline to participate.

What's next - fining people for declining to march in your parades?

We are not going to participate. You can try to force us, shame us (as rah is doing), but we retain the right to not go.

Your feign illogic and flailing words mean little to me or anyone else. Your opinions are utter BS and under no circumstance will I ever be accepting of them. You chose to be an ignorant bigot, as did I 13 years ago. The only difference here is I grew up and realized how wrong I was. I also knew being gay will never change. I was born this way. You weren't born a Christian and you weren't born with those deplorable opinions.

Ah. So that means that my faith has no protection under the First Amendment? Interesting. I am glad to see the gloves come off. I have been saying for years that it was never about equal rights, and everything about stomping down dissent.

Also, people can and do change. Kinsey argues for gender fluidity. If that is true, then you have no argument for immutability. Either you are right or Kinsey is right. You can't both be right.

[Ben Kenobi]

I have no idea.

And yet you're trying to shame me over not attending my brother's wedding.

And you can be clueless on how much your actions will hurt them. That is not love in anybodies book. It is petty hatred.

And that sword cuts both ways. But we know you don't care about people hurting the rest of their family because their wants and desires are paramount.

I'm very clear on it. I'm calling you out as an honorless monster.

You're welcome to say whatever you want to say, it's a free country. Personally I'm amused by all the vitriol, over something that you know nothing about and would rather froth over asking questions. "Why is Ben totally unfazed by this? Maybe I should be asking some questions as to the actual circumstances surrounding an event that I know nothing about?"

But froth away, Rah.

I've know many fathers that were monsters like you, but almost all of their wives were accepting. So the odds would be in my favor.

Answer the question, rah. What if she wouldn't go?

Guilty, but I thought silence was better.

Thank you. I had to find out from asking folks around if it had even been received. I could have point blank posted it outright on the forums, but I didn't do that.

If your daughter committed suicide because you rejected her, I'm sure that would comfort you.

Funny man to make that particular argument to me.

You should really be stopping to ask yourself before starting arguments about an event you know nothing about.

[Ben Kenobi]

Same sex marriage is legal and many choose to go directly to the county for it.

Like you did with Kim Davis, whom was arrested?

I thought y'all were about freedom, not arresting people.

Personally I thought it was interesting that folks would drive all the way from Ohio to go to Kentucky but then that's just me.

[Giancarlo]

Opinions are protected under the First Amendment. That a business got fined for declining to participate in an event off the property of the business, really isn't going to fly. The business supplied a cake.

I really should stop using my breaks responding to you, but you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

You're welcome to assert that I have no argument. However - if a business is permitted to decline work that it does not want, then that sword cuts both ways. What you want is to be able to discriminate against people and ideas that you don't personally like - while at the same time fining those into oblivion if they decline to participate.

No it doesn't. Not in the case of same sex marriage. Again what you think and what the law says are two different things. Apparently not much thought goes into your posts.

What's next - fining people for declining to march in your parades?

Red herring. Keep the logical fallcies and slippery slope arguments to yourself.

Ah. So that means that my faith has no protection under the First Amendment? Interesting. I am glad to see the gloves come off. I have been saying for years that it was never about equal rights, and everything about stomping down dissent.

Also, people can and do change. Kinsey argues for gender fluidity. If that is true, then you have no argument for immutability. Either you are right or Kinsey is right. You can't both be right.

You have all the freedom of speech you want and freedom of religion. That does not give you the right to push discrimination onto other citizens. It has everything to do with equality and you are too blind to see it.

Oh and don't quote Kinsey who has been widely discredited. Gender fluidity has nothing to do with sexual orientation either. Gender identity is a different matter entirely.

Sexual orientation does not change so don't even try that crackpot argument here. By the way, do you even know what gender fluidity is? It appears you are using the wrong argument.

[dannubis]

And that sword cuts both ways. But we know you don't care about people hurting the rest of their family because their wants and desires are paramount.

I am going to regret this but:

How was your brother wanting to marry hurting his family ?

[Giancarlo]

Like you did with Kim Davis, whom was arrested?

I thought y'all were about freedom, not arresting people.

Personally I thought it was interesting that folks would drive all the way from Ohio to go to Kentucky but then that's just me.

She should have been removed. A public servant has to serve the public. She is paid by the tax dollars of all citizens. She has an obligation to follow the law.

I didn't have anyone arrested. She chose to be in contempt of court and was arrested on the orders of a Judge. Kim Davis should be removed from her office because she failed miserably in doing her job.

There are same sex couples in Kentucky, crackpot.

Anyways back to work.